"Net Listing" Are you doing it? Have you done it?

[Prot]

An interesting topic popped up in the Necron thread, but it's worthy of its own topic.

 

I wanted to comment on the conversation but felt it best to keep it out of the necron topic. So to quote Mr.Idaho:

 

Netlisting is essentially an effort to take a short cut to winning without trial and error and the human experience of learning.

 

And what exactly is wrong with exhaustive tactica evaluation for all units and other methods of play instead of Netlisting?

 

So if we go with that definition of netlisting, I would like to ask if you do it... or what you think of it, and what you think the repercussions are.

 

Oddly enough I blame ONE man... one young man for the fear of a certain Wolves Archtype: I will not name that young man, as it would be unfair to actually blame him for anything that is an indirect result of his skill. (But for the record, I think he could do extremely well with any marine style list and brought just as much attention to it.)

 

I don't blame him directly. I mean he is a very skilled player. But as unintentional as it may seem, I think he has brought a lot of attention to Wolves by winning rather large tournaments with Wolves. A LOT of things have to go your way to win a large tournament, but I don't want to get into that. Suffice to say, this person is simply a very good player. Period.

 

Ever since he started doing very well, people in certain pockets have mimicked his lists. They don't necessarily know how to play them, nor are they as competent as him, but this is how -Netlisting- starts in my opinion.

 

Most of those 'types' will fade with the next big thing. But the fact remains, if you have a razorback or more than a squad of Longfangs... you must be a netlister, right? That's what kinda grinds my gears.

 

I've always experimented with the goofiest stuff. I never felt Thuderwolves were -that- amazing (especially at 1500), but recent army types, and poison etc, have completely neutered the idea for me right now.

 

Netlisting to me means -stereo typing-. There are units that every codex uses very well, but don't be a dolt. Use your imagination.... and have some character in your games!

[LPetersson]

To me, net listing is using a list that is posted on forums and which is known to be "good". And by "good" I mean hard to beat with most lists.

Whether that is SW missile spam, ork biker list or whatever is the current flavour for each list.

 

The reason these lists exist and are popular is because they have already gone through trial and error.

Is there any point in re-inventing the wheel yourself just because you want a new car?

 

It didn't take a whole lotta thought for me to make a list with 15 ML long fangs when the new codex came out. Pretty much a guaranteed win around where I play...

 

It's also pretty boring unless you're playing against another tournament list IMO.

 

So, in summary, for me, a net list is basically just a tournament/competitive list by another name and I don't really see anything wrong with using them.

New players might not learn a lot from using them, but that is really their problem not mine.

And I'll still kerbstomp an inexperienced player anyway ;-)

[jamsight]

It's playing to your armies strength 15 missile launcher at the price isn't bad when you that into account that all the wolf heavy weapons with I think the only exception in the Wolfguard is in the Heavy Support slots. The same can be said for the Grey knights psy-bolt spam they lack proper anti tank so you slam the extra strength round into the weapon that is going to give you the biggest bang for your buck ! THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THIS!. The issue is that torniements don't reflect how the hobby is meant to be played. Your playing complete strangers they want to win as do you and more inportantly you don't want to get wasted and end up on the bottom table So you look at the codex and pick out a force that you think will do well, you then bring this list to a forum ( yes I am looking at you lot ;) and get some feed back, then low and behold there is someone from the torniements who says he saw such and such a guy lay absolute domination on this opponents and you want in on that :cuss so you copy the list and run it again ! THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THIS! you want to win after all. The problem I think is that the opponent will most likely have fought this army all weekend and knows how it is going to end so get abit depressed which is understandable I thought Grey Knights 4 times out of 6 games at one torniement with my terminator Grey Knight list and got wooped hard every time I noticed that while they where slighty different they all have the same bare bones.

 

more later got to get some work done hope this isn't too ranty

[LPetersson]

Netlisting to me means -stereo typing-. There are units that every codex uses very well, but don't be a dolt. Use your imagination.... and have some character in your games!

 

And I forgot to say, you need to bear in mind that some people play tournament lists and some people play fluffy lists.

The fluffy lists are where you'll find the character you seem to be after, while tourney/competitive/net lists are all about roflstomping your opponent as decisively as possible.

 

This is one of the main reasons why I always ask my opponent first if he wants to have a competitive game or a fluffy game...

[the jeske]

And what exactly is wrong with exhaustive tactica evaluation for all units and other methods of play instead of Netlisting?

money . considering most people quit the game after a year or two and most of the people are not testing/going to tournaments all the time [doesnt matter the size] what they want is to maxmize the ammount of fun they get from an army for the cash they put in to it . they dont want to shell 2000$ for an army and find out that half of it sucks and will never get used or that to use it they need to play certain points/build which A they may not have options to do[game group plays only 1500 or doesnt use specials or doesnt accept spaming/FW etc etc] B they need to spend another 500$ to make it viable [single rifle man? why bother you need 3 . etc] .

 

that is the "problem" of net lists . sure someone who is 20 years in to the game and/or doesnt realy have to buy new models does have the luxury of picking a force out of what ever he wants to use [buying only the "new" stuff each edition/FAQ/errata].

 

To make an example . Imagine a dude wants to play a bloodthirsty band of SW berzerkers and picks up a lot of BC , he makes 15 man squads slogs them and after 5 finds out that the list doesnt realy work , that losing if you quit after a year or two [or change the system] is not fun and that it would have been better to play a GH list .

 

 

The real problem with net lists is not that a guy goes to a FLGS and buys 15 GK termis draigo and 2 NDK and off he goes building a draigo wing . But the fact that there are still armies [nids , all the old dex] which dont realy work at the level of newer dex [or to be more precise the imperial dex] . A new nid player can net list all he wants , but if he plays against SW or GK or IG against his friends[same game play knowladge] he will have to , well be a lot better then avarge or very lucky [probably both] to get a working list.

[MonSTeR]

To me, net listing is using a list that is posted on forums and which is known to be "good". And by "good" I mean hard to beat with most lists.

Whether that is SW missile spam, ork biker list or whatever is the current flavour for each list.

 

The reason these lists exist and are popular is because they have already gone through trial and error.

Is there any point in re-inventing the wheel yourself just because you want a new car?

 

Net listing as I understand isn't about deliberately foregoing trial and error, it is basically using the internet as a medium of communication between players of the same army.

 

If you're going to buy a new TV, you might log onto the internet and read a review of which TVs are good and which are bad. In the same way you log onto B+C or wherever and read about which units workin combination.

 

In this day and age, it's no different than discussing these sorts of things in the stores or the games clubs or even down the pub as was done in "the old days".

 

Do I do it? Yes, to a certain extent, but I also don't think SW as drunken barbarians is "fluffy" it's kitsch and cliched, a well designed and documented force around a characterful commander regardless of its composition is almost alway more "fluffy" to me, even if it does include 15 missile launchers and 6 meltaguns... :cuss

[Wysten]

Largely, rather then casting blame around, I believe it's down to two things, related to human nature.

 

Firstly, most new players will want a reliable army to start with so they don't feel they have been cheated out of money. Most people who get into this game want to be able to showcase their glorious lists on the battle field as well as on camera, so it only makes sense that it's all functional as well. Most people also need a bench point upon which to build the army and to understand how they build lists upon. Which ensures a good potencial to have a good strap, reguardless of new players who are unlikely to have the understanding, but will gain it, or experienced players.

 

Secondly, it's due to the sheer amount of armour and the general format of this game that multiple units are substandard. Blood Claws are poorly supported and are generally a poor mans grey hunter, with the deathstaring route being silly expensive for not enough bang. Skyclaws were nerfed without wolf guard, Captains are downgraded substandard HQ's in compersion to the codex psyker and so fourth. In other cases, such as sisters of battle and Tynards, it's terrible design that limits the list to a very limited range of lists to stand a remote chance. This conbinued with slow updates and general overtheming of certain game concepts, such as Space Marines and mech, that makes a considerably amount of inventiveness completely useless.

 

I for one admit to doing it to a certain extent, I don't have infinate funding, so I would rather start off with a stable army and add units from there, or substitute units and what not. The main units that interest me being Thunder Wolves and Skyclaws, there be praying that Lukas will be a special guy next format, be a IC (Seriously, who is more independant then Lukas? XD) him having a option for jetpacks, and the option to take Skyclaws as a troops choice! Long Fangs and Sky Claws sounds silly fun. Though still no wolf guard. lol :cuss

[Aeddon]

I'll use a certain amount of "net-listing" in a way but not in writing the actual list. What I mean by that is I like to see what others have to say about certain units and may use that to help me decide whether or not to use them but I don't ever take a list directly off the web, just takes the fun out of it for me.

[clanfield]

i have played the wolves from the start of 40k ,

i dont mind other folks doing what they like ,personly i dont,

i like a rounded flexable list which has stayed the test of time and beaten allcomers for decades i very rearly take a lose in my area and beyond thats my way and my wolves comand respect and fear from there oponents,i even had folks visably go white when they realise who and what they are fighting,

 

net lists are a start. they bring a good amount of illreput to our chapter and some times pure hostility but if your good to deal with it go ahead have fun

 

the way i see it net lists are ok for a easy start but beaware that i good oponent will do his homework and expect such and perhaps have a counter planed

 

just my point of view

[Captain Idaho]

40k isn't really the same as buying a product like a TV and reading a review of it. 40k is a game which is relevent not just to what you load up on the table but also how you play the game and what your mentality is. It requires a particular kind of person after all to play well with a Tau army after all.

 

There isn't anything wrong with getting a little guidance from other people, but it's much more constructive to a player's skill with trial and error. Especially as GW are making attempts to make more and more varied builds worthwhile in each new Codex.

 

For the record I rarely use a Net list, I go my own way, and I win many more games than most Space Marines players. In actual fact I should have even been the winning Space Marines player in the past two ToS but lost out to players getting more favourite opponent awards.

 

Thing is, there ARE other ways to play 40k than the apparent most efficient way of playing according to Net lists, but the box is very rarely thought of outside the box.

 

As an example, people see the cheapness of Long Fangs as a good thing (and why not?) so why not take all three Heavy Support choices with those awesome Long Fangs? Well maybe the cheapness of Long Fangs means a SW player can have MORE points to spend on assault based forces than other armies because he gets to have a cheap heavy support unit?

 

The biggest problem I see with Net listing is people become closed minded about taking anything other than something which ticks the boxes of the current favourite Net list. 40k has too many unquantifiable by simple math variables to be considered; it's not just about lining up and killing an opponent's army. Movement, terrain, even psycological advantages (just when is tht unit of Wolf Scouts going to come on behind my precious tanks?) that grant advantages and elements that the usual math-hammer responses that fuel much Net Listing simply don't take into account.

 

Emperor forbid someone breaks from what is considered the top choice and actually wins with a balanced army list! :P

[the jeske]

Well maybe the cheapness of Long Fangs means a SW player can have MORE points to spend on assault based forces than other armies because he gets to have a cheap heavy support unit?

the problem is TWC builds are not good for new players without the actual models to buy . Would draigo wing armies be popular if to make them you would have to buy a box of normal termis and a box of WFB halabardiers ? no it wouldnt , new players buy stuff that is in the shops or that others play , they are not interested in "spend 20+ hours convering one awesome models of which you need 16+ to play with[if you have the skills to convert]".

 

 

Emperor forbid someone breaks from what is considered the top choice and actually wins with a balanced army list!

when was the last time nids won a few GT on both sides of the pond ? as they are the empitom of an army that can not do a cost effective shoting list , that do good assault at the same time . How did they do in hard boyz etc .

it is easy to talk about "balanced" lists with dex that allow many different kind of game play builds , but try to make an unortodox army with nids [which imo is a bad dex] or IG[which in many people opinions is an awesome dex] and it will suck hard . GK different builds of different level [crow , draigo, strikes mecha , DCA alfa strike builds , cortez builds etc] god knows if they are balanced or not , but they are there . A new nid player can only play with a net list because it is the only thing that works . Same with chaos . A new player doesnt have to net list to see that DPS , oblits mecha troops is the way to go and that there arent realy any other ways to play chaos .

 

and again cash comes in here too . isnt it better to learn the game with something that works[or should work] then do two things at the same time [learn the game and learn if this or that army choice works or not] , because for a new player it maybe problematic to see if his army doesnt work [or does] or its just his lack of gaming skills .

[greatcrusade08]

Emperor forbid someone breaks from what is considered the top choice and actually wins with a balanced army list!

when was the last time nids won a few GT on both sides of the pond ? as they are the empitom of an army that can not do a cost effective shoting list , that do good assault at the same time . How did they do in hard boyz etc .

it is easy to talk about "balanced" lists with dex that allow many different kind of game play builds , but try to make an unortodox army with nids [which imo is a bad dex] or IG[which in many people opinions is an awesome dex] and it will suck hard . GK different builds of different level [crow , draigo, strikes mecha , DCA alfa strike builds , cortez builds etc] god knows if they are balanced or not , but they are there . A new nid player can only play with a net list because it is the only thing that works . Same with chaos . A new player doesnt have to net list to see that DPS , oblits mecha troops is the way to go and that there arent realy any other ways to play chaos .

 

 

and heres the crunch.. people netlist becuase they want easy wins..

to me its like going to visit a hooker instead of taking the time to wine and dine a lovely lady..

the short term results are the same... it costs money to have sex

but the long term results are vastly different

 

its the same principle here, people want to kerbstomp opponents, its a one way street.. for some its about winning big stage tournaments which to me is nonsense (ill get to that), for others its about a win loss record, which again is dumb.

in ten years no-ones gunna care if your unbeaten, but youll be unbeaten at home alone with no friends and nothing to do than touch yourself whilst reminscing about how cool you are.

 

the biggest aspect of gaming is games clubs and gaming with friends, with the exception of practicing for tounaments theres no reason to lay netlists against your mates.. what do you learn?

as its been said the trial and error has been done, we know that netlist works, so the only reason must be becuase you want to kerbstomp your mates..

and what a jolly good friend you must be :pinch:

 

a game is for 2 or more people, it is in essence a moral contract between you and your opponent to have fun.. whats fun about a turn 2 victory?

 

getting back to winning tournaments, what gets me is that netlists come about because (usually) they have win torunaments in the past.. now tell me how many times the same guy has won the same tournaments with the same lists..

it doesnt happen (although there will always be exeptions to the rule).. people will look at the netlists and know what to cater for, so netlisting isnt always a good thing for competative play.

also given you potentially in a room with 50 other netlisters, two things come to mind.

firstly: taking a netlist hasnt really increased your odds of winning, people know the list your running and others will be running the same.. it always come down to your ability

secondly: if you took something unique yet strong, people wouldnt know right away how to counter it, as idaho says there is a widening amount of vareity in this game, being unique could surprise your opponents (trust me on this, i have some experience) and earn you a little more tabletop 'respect'

i really enjoy walking into a tournament, having not seen anyone since the year before (and then only that time) and them remembering who i am.. thats awesome, not another face in the crowd of netlisters.

 

edit: Jeske is wrong, there are many many ways to play chaos.. its a mistaken belief there is only one worthy build.. given its an older dex it will rarely win torunaments, so you might aswell give unique a try.. trust me its fun

[Captain Idaho]

Well maybe the cheapness of Long Fangs means a SW player can have MORE points to spend on assault based forces than other armies because he gets to have a cheap heavy support unit?

the problem is TWC builds are not good for new players without the actual models to buy . Would draigo wing armies be popular if to make them you would have to buy a box of normal termis and a box of WFB halabardiers ? no it wouldnt , new players buy stuff that is in the shops or that others play , they are not interested in "spend 20+ hours convering one awesome models of which you need 16+ to play with[if you have the skills to convert]".

 

There are other builds than TWC builds.

 

Emperor forbid someone breaks from what is considered the top choice and actually wins with a balanced army list!

when was the last time nids won a few GT on both sides of the pond ? as they are the empitom of an army that can not do a cost effective shoting list , that do good assault at the same time . How did they do in hard boyz etc .

it is easy to talk about "balanced" lists with dex that allow many different kind of game play builds , but try to make an unortodox army with nids [which imo is a bad dex] or IG[which in many people opinions is an awesome dex] and it will suck hard . GK different builds of different level [crow , draigo, strikes mecha , DCA alfa strike builds , cortez builds etc] god knows if they are balanced or not , but they are there . A new nid player can only play with a net list because it is the only thing that works . Same with chaos . A new player doesnt have to net list to see that DPS , oblits mecha troops is the way to go and that there arent realy any other ways to play chaos .

 

and again cash comes in here too . isnt it better to learn the game with something that works[or should work] then do two things at the same time [learn the game and learn if this or that army choice works or not] , because for a new player it maybe problematic to see if his army doesnt work [or does] or its just his lack of gaming skills .

 

I don't actually know much about 'Ard Boyz so can't comment, but I have seen Tyranids do well in tournaments. I've even seen a ToS tournament have only two players winning all their games one year; Imperial Guard and Tyranids.

 

I'm not expert on Tyranids, but they don't seem so weak to me. *shrugs*

[greatcrusade08]

tyranids are not weak, i dont know where this idea comes from, at my own tournament which inclduded three draigowings, the two (and only two) tyranid players came in 4th and 5th ahead of two of the draigowing armies

[LPetersson]

the biggest aspect of gaming is games clubs and gaming with friends, with the exception of practicing for tounaments theres no reason to lay netlists against your mates.. what do you learn?

as its been said the trial and error has been done, we know that netlist works, so the only reason must be becuase you want to kerbstomp your mates..

and what a jolly good friend you must be :P

 

And this is why people should learn to ask if it's going to be a tourney/competitive game or a fluffy game. If neither do that, then they are both equally at fault for assume-ing (see what I did there? ;)) that the other person was going to want to play the same kind of game. And this is why assumptions are bad...

 

Which brings me neatly to:

a game is for 2 or more people, it is in essence a moral contract between you and your opponent to have fun.. whats fun about a turn 2 victory?

 

I largely agree with you, but you are overlooking something.

Not everyone thinks the same things are fun. Some people have games with an actual story behind why their armies clash and some just meet up for a game. Some people like ham & pineapple pizza (heretics!), while other like pepperoni and onions. Just because you don't think something is fun, don't assume others don't think so.

 

Before a game you agree to a number of points, right? Or do you just assume that you both want to play with 3000 points?

When you do that, you also agree whether it's a tourney or fluffy game... There, problem resolved

[eyeslikethunder]

Given the diversity of net lists for the space wolves. I think it would be quite hard not to use one.

If you use swift claws its a litteblitz list

3 LF 4 GH kpack list

3 thunderlords goat boy

3 runepreist killswitch list

balanced hybrid list 3++

razorback spam stelek

terminators in LR admam swblog

3 GH 1 Bc SWblog

Loganwing

I think I have seen everything on the net once

 

While I do think they promote a certain laziness. I understand why people use them. I have friends who new to 40 k they want to know what spend their money on. 40k is very expensive and certain units are rubbish. They just dont want to waste their money. Hey some of us are rich I have every space wolf model GW have done and have every unit in the list even WG bikers.

 

I think the most the 5th ed list have been an improvement adding diversity and variation. The net has changed the nature of the game. The standard of play has risen, the numbers who play at tournments and clubs has gone up. The sheer tactical information available to noobs is far greater than when i started in 80's. But lets not get on our high horses about net lists they provide a useful aid to noobs and are something to chat about online. If any of you just uses a netlist and never changes think about what you lose to what would help and give go it will make you a better player.

 

I do like how at one of the clubs I play the X club in london bridge they let you state competitive or friendly it lets me know what list should bring down as I am happy to play either way

[Simo429]

Firstly I don't think there are many people that use a net list.

 

Unless its a cut and paste job then it isn't a net list.

 

If its some variant of what someone has read and then put into practice and tweaked how is that not their list?

 

In the end there are only a certain number of choices in a codex and some are far better than others so its no surprise that similar units are going to be seen in the majority of lists.

 

Its the small details that changes the success of a list

 

wolf standards are they worth it

power weapons vs MOTW

Wolf guard vs second melta gun

speeders vs scouts

rhinos vs razorbacks

missiles vs mixed units

psychic powers

5 man units over bigger

 

these are the choices that make a difference to the list that someone brings but at the end of the day if you want the best chance at winning the most games you are going to take the best units in a codex, that in a space wolf list are Rune Priests, Grey Hunters and Long fangs. Whether you consider choosing those three components tantamount to taking a net list is up to the individual. I don't care whether a person has ripped off a list from YTTH or came up with a novel concept (which less face it, with the blogging community and forum traffic is unlikely).

[the jeske]

and heres the crunch.. people netlist becuase they want easy wins..

so they should want to buy blind , learn with stuff then doesnt work and then after buying all the stuff , they wouldnt need go for the stuff that works[which offten is very close to what net lists use]. It make sense that people want working armies . I mean this is not warmahordes , there are options even in the best dex that make no sense at all [purgation squads, VV for sm , lancers for IG etc etc] .

 

 

tyranids are not weak, i dont know where this idea comes from, at my own tournament which inclduded three draigowings, the two (and only two) tyranid players came in 4th and 5th ahead of two of the draigowing armies

and how many of those played against GK and IG . + there are IG wins , there are SW wins , there were BA wins , there are GK wins , when was the last time that a nid army won a GT ? it is a simple question .

I'm not expert on Tyranids, but they don't seem so weak to me. *shrugs*

when was the last time they wont a GT sized event? its a simple question , technicly any army can [due to luck , match up , superior game skills] go top 8 , but if it isnt wining tournaments then it means there is a wall which it can not break and is weak [there is no stronger and weaker . armies are either strong or weak]. Being the army to clear other builds from top match ups maybe fun for teams where personal win isnt as much important [but high placing of many members is] , but in a longer run playing an army to counter builds X/Y isnt what I would call fun .

 

There are other builds than TWC builds.

ok . I think am missing something here . You would want SW players to base assault centered armies around BC and GK and face BA [FnP] or GK[higher I better and more squads weapons]. If someone wants an assault army he builds it around multi wound models because it is the most cost efficient way . Or are we talking here about theoretical builds like slam 2-3 HQs and lots of WG in to a LR and pray to get in to hth ?

 

a game is for 2 or more people, it is in essence a moral contract between you and your opponent to have fun.. whats fun about a turn 2 victory?

superiority of skill on both gaming , list building level . more luck and having a table to play another game . in tournaments long games means your going 13/7 or worse draw[which is bad] , give you less time to rest[which is bad if your not playing near your house . because tired people make mistakes]. Just a few out of the top of my head.

 

 

 

the short term results are the same... it costs money to have sex

but the long term results are vastly different

do you know many marriges that work well where one sides does nothing and the other one does ? both in short and long run it is the same . To make a more w40k example , if what you said was true people like refusee wouldnt leave the hobby after the gav dex [what is 4 years vs 20+years already in the hobby] .

 

in ten years no-ones gunna care if your unbeaten, but youll be unbeaten at home alone with no friends and nothing to do than touch yourself whilst reminscing about how cool you are.

nice insult man . but I have a wife and 2 kids how about you ?

 

as its been said the trial and error has been done, we know that netlist works, so the only reason must be becuase you want to kerbstomp your mates..

and what a jolly good friend you must be

so you would expect me to come with lists that suck and are bad so my friends can win and which makes them happy [because they win or have a chance to win , but I dont or lower my chance to win] . Interesting way of thinking . Specialy as each time I visit people playing in the west I kind of a dont see does dudes with friendly lists , everyone plays the best set ups and takes the best options [and no am not talking about tournaments] . I find playing to lose insulting to me [wasting my time and money] or my opponent .

 

 

 

Jeske is wrong, there are many many ways to play chaos.. its a mistaken belief there is only one worthy build.. given its an older dex it will rarely win torunaments, so you might aswell give unique a try.. trust me its fun

How many times do I have to write that I played NM till codex BA came out . I remember yours and Idahos main builds , try to do the same . But then again considering the touching remark I dont think you are able to do that.

as for chaos goes . show me a good chaos army that can deal with other dex which has a different game play then 2 DP 6-9 oblits zerker/pm/csm mix. Am waiting for such a build since the rule book for 5th ed was leaked .

secondly: if you took something unique yet strong, people wouldnt know right away how to counter it, as idaho says there is a widening amount of vareity in this game, being unique could surprise your opponents (trust me on this, i have some experience) and earn you a little more tabletop 'respect'

if it is strong it is not unique because people are testing it . If someone tests a MSU razor spam for SW he will more or less know how the same MSU works for lets say a Crow build . And why would people not know how stuff works , dont they read the dex , dont they test units , how do they know that someone isnt cheating them ?

 

lets say I play against meq deathstar army X using LR , am I suddenly not going to understand how a GK version of it using DCA and crusaders going to work ? Will I be unable to see which version of said death star unit is better if I compare a chaos , loyalist and the GK version of such units ?

 

If I seen a bike army does the way the army work changes in its principles because one dude is playing khan the other sm cpt and the third pure RW ?

 

If I played a AL army in 4th am I going to be surpised how an alfa strike army made out of scouts works ?

 

There are no hidden uber units that no one uses [unless those units are suddenly FAQ/errated like DW ss/th for example] or unless someone is testing a leaked dex .

 

 

Respect is not something you gain because your opponent doesnt know how an EC syren works and he happens to play DoA, because such a trick works one time per life against each gamer. Which of course per se aint bad ... If one plays in a closed room against each dude only once and make them sign a contract that they will never talk about the game to anyone .

Stable builds which perform always good and not because "he didnt knew how option X works" or "I got turn one and I won , because if I would get tabled".

 

Net lists only help people to join the hobby and stay in it too [because wins make people happy , when they learn the basics of the game ] , what they do after they gain "veteran" status is their own personal choice . Whatever they want to feel the pain of playing an EC army [which sucks hard] or keep playing draigowings[which is simple and not easy to use on higher level of gaming] they are free what ever they want to do . But I have seen a lot of people in my life starting up with models they like[or those that were cool] and leave the game or change the game systems , those that started with good armies not collections of models stayed.

[Grey Mage]

Net lists should inspire you, but they shouldnt be a recipe followed at each step. You can get a look at what other people think- and then proxy what you like and see what you can do.

 

If people go with net lists, without testing their own ideas aswell, they dont grow as players- and the game stagnates for it Im afraid. You shouldnt ignore them, theyre a valuable source of information if you look at not just What is in them but Why and How they fit into those lists. But you have to remember that net lists are meta-dependant, and if you cant adapt you wont have the consistent 4/5 victories that a better list builder and player is going to get.

 

There are no hidden uber units that no one uses [unless those units are suddenly FAQ/errated like DW ss/th for example] or unless someone is testing a leaked dex.

 

But there are a number of units that are underestimated or misunderstood, like Whirlwinds.

[clanfield]

i agree with grey mage 100%

 

and yes respect is ernt the hard way with fair play and skill and not being a loony at the tabble winning can be a baine as well as a joy if your too good some folks dont wana play you ,it is better for the hobby to play friendly and have fun i feel ,but the odd tourney is good for the blood as well

 

as too nids being a good dex one of my regular guys is very tough fight even when i do go for it.

[Lord Ragnarok]

The OP had a definition which has been answered.

 

Everything else is subjective. This means that the usefulness will be short, especially if the debate becomes circular or inflammatory. (yes this is a friendly forewarning).

[Blacksad]

netlisting can be seen in every game. used to play Magic: The Gathering competitively. in 50 players, there were 6 differnt decks. mine, and the 5 standard netdecks at the time. same with Warhammer Fantasy. Same with 40k. same with every game. if something works, and people win big games with a certain setup, it will be copied (hell, even in online RTS games, like starcraft, you have the zergling rush, the marine supremacy and the protoss carrier whipeout)

 

I myself often use netlists... as a means of inspiration. if you're gong to a tournament, and you know the current netlists, you know what to expect, and you can adapt your own list to tackle that. easy win :devil:

 

btw: chaos marines: I've seen a m8 use a non-netlist once. he had 0 lashprinces, no obliteratorcult dudes... he used common chaos space marines, and used the different icons to change them into the perfect weapons for what he needed. Slaanesh units to claim objectives early on, and hold them, Nurgle and Khorne models to work together in destroying the opponent (Nurgle screening the Khorne marines, taking the assualt, counterassualting with Khorne).

 

it was simple, it was beautifull, it worked like a charm.

[Spacefrisian]

I love it when peeps use netlisting, those lists have been published and with some thinking (yes some peeps think) and a little bit of luck, you can demolish those lists. Heck i managed to beat a 3 squad longfangs razorspam list with Chaos marines and i didnt use lash.

 

Try unexpected things and most of those "netlists" copycats wil fall.

 

"Knowing is half the battle"

[Grey Mage]

netlisting can be seen in every game. used to play Magic: The Gathering competitively. in 50 players, there were 6 differnt decks. mine, and the 5 standard netdecks at the time.

'Course, the first world champion- who went on to do it a couple more times later in his career- built his decks in the car ride on the way to the tournament.

 

Just because somethings the standard doesnt mean its the best in your hands, or the best fit for those hands for that matter. *shrugs*

[skrikspya]

I think net lists are great. People ask for advice on what works and how it works. Lots of those tips combined make net lists basically. Simple. Sure they are altered a bit from player to player depending on factors like flavour, money etc But what I can see from most people who netlist and those who don't. They are quite the same in the end.

 

Since if you want to field X and study the codex you will find you can take Y or Z as support for your X. And it all adds up to a good list if the player is decent and since a player who's been around for some time can see it for himself, someone new to 40k or tries a new team will not see it.

 

Netlists help for all players to see stuff for the first time or from maybe a new perspective.

 

 

And for all who goes on about you destroyed some netlist with your fluffy list or whatever. Yes, the player is very important. More important than the list in my opinion. But meet same baddie you trashed with footdar instead of a working list, would that make it more even? A solid list is a start for a player to learn the game. Once they are comfortable with all aspects of the game they will start to see what works and what doesn't.