tactical squads.... great, what next?

[hobointherain]

After about 12 years of collecting and modling I'm finally settling down to build my first SM army but I think Im still drawn to interesting models and conversion ops over practical/tactical unit choices. So far Ive got a storm bolter toting Librarian and two tac squads, both with power weapons, one with plas cannon and melta, the other with heavy bolter and flamer. This brings me just shy of 500 pts. Where should I go next??? I'm fancying a shooty army, maybe a rifleman dread in there and a couple of dakka preds? I'm looking at a 1500 pnt army

 

All ideas/criticism/scorn welcome

 

and this is my first post :D

[Shadowstalker Grim]

Welcome to the board!

 

So you like shooty armies eh? Well luckily there are quite a few decent units!

 

A rifleman dread would be an excellent addition to the army (the only hard bit is finding autocannon arms as these do not come as standard and is the very reason I don't run one) however theres also the twin linked lascannon and missile launcher combo which does admirably.

 

The Predator is a good unit, often people run a 'combi-pred' Which consists of the autocannon and lascannon sponsons to deliver a nice mixture of firepower

 

Landspeeder Typhoons deliver some nice long range missile fire and a good heavy bolter punch

 

Thunderfire cannons and whirlwinds can lay down some extremely helpful long ranged firepower and punish weakly armoured enemies (though they become less effective against well armoured enemies) but they are cheap

 

Razorbacks can have Twin linked lascannons to help contribute some firepower

 

Devastator squads with missile launchers aren't too expensive and can lay down some strong firepower against lighter vehicles

 

Land Raiders with Twin Linked Lascannons can also deliver a decent amount of firepower but are quite expensive

 

Theres an article in my signature called Codex: Space Marine 101 which was compiled by DarkGuard, its got lots of information on the different units in the space marine repetoire and is well worth a look if you want a review on certain units and their weapon loadouts and what the loadouts can acheive!

 

 

I'd say that when choosing a unit you should choose it for the right reasons, not just because people say its the best thing since sliced bread and not because it just looks amazing as you want something in between. You want something you like the look and feel of, but you know won't disappoint! Best of luck :ph34r:

[DarkGuard]

First off, welcome to the forum!. Next, I second all of Grim's suggestions will throw in a couple more units :ph34r:.

 

First up, my personal favourite, the Sternguard. 1st Company Veterans who specialise in shooting, their special ammo means they can engage light infantry all the way through to heavy infantry, plus MCs, while being able to engage the enemy from short to mid-long range. They also come with lots of options such as taking combi weapons, special weapons and heavy weapons, and the Sergeant can be given some combat gear. Word of warning though, special ammo doesn't work with storm bolters, so it's best to leave that option out.

 

If you want a storm bolter unit though look no further than Tactical Terminators. Each comes standard with a storm bolter and power fist, though the meatshield/Sergeant comes with a power sword. Their shooting abilities can be expanded with the heavy flamer for up close and personal combat, the assault cannon for mid-range and the cyclone missile launcher for all ranges, while they can be made more deadlier against tanks and walkers in combat with chainfists. They don't require transport as you can Deep Strike them, or just walk them up the board, thanks to relentless they can fire all their weapons even when moving.

 

Both of these units, the Sternguard perhaps more so, are customizable. Don't feel the need to get the finecast minis for the Sternguard, you can convert your own by getting a Tactical squad set and sticking purity seals and scopes on their guns and painting their helmets white (or whatever colour your 1st Company is using). Of course those finecast minis are lovely...

 

Also, both units have their own tactica on these forums, the Sternguard one written by myself and can be found in my sig, while the Terminators is written by Tactical Terminator enthusiast Mysticaria, and there's a link in the Terminator entry of the C:SM 101 that Grim has pointed you towards.

 

Also, if you're looking for your units to do well while looking cool, it may be worth familiarizing yourself with your local metagame and then Grim's Enemies 101 article, which introduces the armies, highlights their weak points and tells you what to look out for. After all, your Sternguard squad may look awesome but two lascannons will not be so great if your metagame regularly runs Ork horde.

[hobointherain]

Ahh sternguard are sounding nice! I fancy a ten man squad with maybe a lascannon and a multimelta, maybe combat squadded with half in a razorback with the libby and half chillaxing taking pot shots. Pretty much decided on a rifleman and a couple of auto/las preds. Might add a rapid responce unit like a land speeder or attack bike with multimelta to give vehicles something to think about.

 

Thanks for the advice!!!

[Forward Operative]

With Sternguard, don't forget if you give them additional weapons, you are wasting those extra points you are paying for the bolter ammo(which only works on bolters, not bolt pistols or storm bolters)

 

That being said, the best options for Sternguard are: combi-weapons and the heavy flamer(only place you can get one on a tactical marine). I don't even like putting a heavy flamer on them.

[OptiMAT]

As above, really.

 

Sternguard, Dakka Preds, Dakka Devastators, Standard Terminators (mobile Assault cannon... mmm), and Rifleman Dread are all firm choices.

Terminators might be a tad expensive for that point range maybe? Depends how many feet you want on the floor for the games.

 

A Razorback if you're into tanks is a good option too, Small Sterguard squad in a Razorback gives you transport + heavier weapons without sacrificing the regular bolter abilities of the sternguard squad, but dont forget that those models get VERY cheap combi-weapons.

[Something Wycked]

With Sternguard, don't forget if you give them additional weapons, you are wasting those extra points you are paying for the bolter ammo(which only works on bolters, not bolt pistols or storm bolters)

 

That being said, the best options for Sternguard are: combi-weapons and the heavy flamer(only place you can get one on a tactical marine). I don't even like putting a heavy flamer on them.

+1

 

I'm also not a fan of giving Sternguard weapons other than Bolters, Combi-Bolters and melee weapons. They are the only place you can get Special Issue Ammo; modeling Combi-Bolters and making those Sternguard able to handle any target that you throw them at is fantastic. :)

 

And there's just something awesome about a kitted out Veteran squad that's painted appropriately- they just look like they can take on anything.

[DarkGuard]

Something Wycked and Jadin both make excellent points about the Sternguard, adding special or heavy weapons to them wastes those points you spent for better bolters (you seriously didn't think you were spending +9pts for Veteran profile did you? ), and also impacts on their flexibility, indeed I feel the most flexible build is bolters with some combi-meltas and a fist, it can deal with anything.

 

But, you can also make some good specialist units with versatility with those extra weapons. Two meltaguns and some combi-meltas makes a good anti-tank unit which can Drop Pod in and ruin your opponent's day by blowing two of his prize tanks up. Heavy flamers makes horde armies and now Necrons cry, while lascannons and plasma cannons are cheap enough to field on Sternguard and can make a good fire support unit, especially with kraken bolts.

 

So the important thing to remember with Sternguard is that they are not only versatile on the tabletop, but also in army selection. I wouldn't take a 10 man squad with multi-melta and lascannon though, small squads for heavy weapons squads, matching heavy weapons for focus, or big (but not that big) squads for the assault weapons and combis.

[hobointherain]

The sternguard tac analysis was fantastic darkguard! think i'm gonna stick with combi weapons and a fist on the serg, maybe a five man squad so I can squeeze them and my libby in a razorback (assault cannons?) I might stick to devs for the lascannons and maybe stick the multi melta in another tac squad

What are opinions on vanguard vets? having a shooty army is all well and good but I'm gonna need something to counter attack with. Ive heard mixed reviews tbh

[Shadowstalker Grim]

I'd be wary of sticking too many lascannons in a devastator squad, thats not to say it isn't worth a go...its just a little pricey and you may not find them delivering as much bang for your buck as other units can..

 

Vanguard veterans are pretty reasonable (again I'll point you to the link in either me or DarkGuard's signatures which may help shed some light on them)

 

Generally theres a few issues:

 

- They don't come with jetpacks as standard. Its not a major issue but it means that you're going to have to give them a ride or pay for the jetpacks

 

- Small teams of them aren't going to be that deadly in melee and can get swamped

 

- They're quite costly, 250 points for a full 10 man unit and NO upgrades. Upgrades such as vehicles and weapons are only going to make it more pricey

 

- Each veteran (as with sternguard) is only as well defended as other regular marines and they can go down fast to enemy CC specialists or even just regular gunfire

 

- They compete with Command Squads, Honour Guard and Terminators for strong CC (assault squads are alright but lack enough special weapons)

 

 

This isn't to say they aren't decent. I believe Thade has some success using them! Personally I'd recommend sticking to around 7 men and upgrading 5 or so of them with a mixture of power weapons and storm shields and maybe a Powerfist on the Sarge. It should hit relatively hard and won't cost the moon. Your 2 unupgraded vets can take the hit for the better armed marines and the storm shields might be able to soak up some firepower. Any less than that and you'll probably lose them to large groups of enemies.

 

You'd best avoid enemy CC specialists (such as howling banshees from eldar) as they will scythe through your units and lose you precious troops. (This I would say for most of our CC units, we lack the power some other armies have in melee)

[DarkGuard]

I'm glad you liked it hobointherain. I've had some experience with 5 man squads in the past, although normally it was a 5 man squad with fist, two heavy flamers and Vulkan in a HB Razorback. So had some mobile firepower while closing, but didn't feel I had to fire that gun because it was free with the transport, and then three twin-linked heavy flamers which would rip apart most things. Recently changed that to drop the fist and go for 3 combis (I don't like fists on small units, feel it's points are disproportionate and a small unit won't do much in combat anyway, even with the fist) and it worked all right, but I haven't used SCs in ages, as is my preference. So now I use the 8 man heavy flamer combi-melta squad described there.

 

As for Vanguard, the man to talk to is thade, but there is a handy thread where he has some ideas on them found here. Naturally, while some may not feel they are as good as Hammernators in a Raider, they tend to be more flexible and perhaps cheaper, I'm not sure how the points add up. Certainly in a Rhino they're cheaper. Jump packs are extortionate, but don't feel the need to take them when a Rhino will be cheaper.

 

Another good counter-attacking unit is Honour Guard, specifically the Idaho pattern Honour Guard unit. As you may have guess our own Captain Idaho uses this squad a lot, which at its core includes a Chapter Master with relic blade and storm shield accompanied by a 5 man strong unit of Honour Guard, including the Chapter Champion with a relic blade, a banner bearer with power weapon and bolt pistol, and 3 normal guys (power weapon and bolt pistols) in a Rhino or Razorback. Resilient against normal attacks and capable of dishing out 10 relic blade and 20 power weapon attacks on the charge they put a dent in most units, although they are vulnerable to low AP weapons and power weapons due to a lack of invulnerable saves. So unlike Vanguard they can arguably dish out more damage, but lack the staying power if you end up in a bad match up, as Vanguard, Command squads and Hammernators all have or can take storm shields. They also dictate what HQ you need to take, which may not be what you want.

 

As for tips, if you're using the unit as a counter-attacking unit in the mainline you can easily get away with a Rhino or Razorback for transport. As long as it's stationary you have a 14" charge range from any of the points (you can't pivot though, that would be very nice). Keeping their transport behind the units you want to support will mean they can pretty much reach any enemy unit you need them to deal with. Alternatively using smoke you can get them in the enemy's face, just leave them in their transport until the next turn and charge then, it requires some planning ahead but works really well when you get the hang of it. Of course Vanguard can use jump packs and HI to get stuck in and counter-attack, although with scatter and the inability to shoot if you scatter wrong it's not advisable, instead it may be better to run them behind your other units and use the jump packs to get over them, which is something that is more difficult when running out of a Rhino. Of course, a Land Raider makes their use even easier, can cause a lot of damage to your opponent's army, functions ok as a counter-attack or assault vehicle, and can draw some firepower away from your Rhinos.