Black Templars Sucessor?

[Lady_Mournival]

Hey All,

 

I was just wondering if it was possible for the Black Templars to have a sucessor chapter. My reason for wondering is my chapter is quite non codex, with only 9 companies, 2 of them being scout companies, and the veteran company being disolved into the others. I'm quite set on using the Dornian Lineage of gene-seed but I've noticed the only chapter that is truly non-codex are the Black Templars.

 

Thanks in Advance.

 

~Mecharius

[JamesI]

A chapter created with geneseed from the Templars would be an Imperial Fist successor (successors are listed from the first founding chapter).

 

Its quite possible for a Chapter to be founded using BT geneseed, or any geneseed, and decide to break from the codex strictures.

[soddinnutter]

Could be a Dornian chapter that has deviated due to isolation from other chapters.

[Lady_Mournival]

Its quite possible for a Chapter to be founded using BT geneseed, or any geneseed, and decide to break from the codex strictures.

I know it's possible for any chapter to break from codex, I just don't want to find a reason for it :P I'm lazy like that, so the Black Templars are a perfect fit.

 

 

Could be a Dornian chapter that has deviated due to isolation from other chapters.

 

This is something I might consider. My Chapter is a new one to be sure, and the direction I'm leaning to is it was founded to assist the Death Spectres watchover the ghoul stars.

[Leonaides]

Its quite possible for a Chapter to be founded using BT geneseed, or any geneseed, and decide to break from the codex strictures.

I know it's possible for any chapter to break from codex, I just don't want to find a reason for it :P I'm lazy like that, so the Black Templars are a perfect fit.

And the problem with that is then why has your chapter also deviated from the BT structure? You really dont need any fancy justification because of some great battle/disaster/horrible enemy/etc/etc to have a different organisation. The Iron Hands tend to have Termies spread throughout their forces due to their inspiring nature to the other troops (used to be sergeants in Term armour but now could just as easily be said to have each company accompanied by a few termie squads), the salamanders only have 7 companies representing the 7 settlements of nocturn, i could go on...

[Lady_Mournival]

And the problem with that is then why has your chapter also deviated from the BT structure? You really dont need any fancy justification because of some great battle/disaster/horrible enemy/etc/etc to have a different organisation. The Iron Hands tend to have Termies spread throughout their forces due to their inspiring nature to the other troops (used to be sergeants in Term armour but now could just as easily be said to have each company accompanied by a few termie squads), the salamanders only have 7 companies representing the 7 settlements of nocturn, i could go on...

Okay, I see your point, and I have no shyed away fro Black Templars because of their no Libby policy.

 

So would this sound reasnoble for an organisation?

 

1st-3rd company - normal battle companies

 

4th company - assault company with vanguard veterans - organised this way to make a very potent boarding force and counter assault force; very fast moving, very hard hitting.

 

5th company - heavy support (devestator) company with sternguard veterans - organised as such to create a very deadly ranged force, the 5th company are known as the siegebreakers and are usually given command in siege situations, due to their experience and the amount of firepower they can bring to bear. The Captain is also the Master of the Arsenal.

 

6th company - Naval (Tactical) Company - provides security for the chapters ships, along with boarding operations. Captain is Master of the Fleet.

 

7th company - Home-Guard (tactical) Company - Provides security for the chapter homeworld, also provides support for the ranger company. Captain is Master of the Watch.

 

The 2 Scout companies are to provide more suitable replacements for the other 7 companies, since combat-attrition rates can be high.

 

8th company - ranger (scout) company - Patrols, provides intel on, and plans strikes (for the 7th company) into the Ghoul Stars, which the chapter shares responsibility of with the Death Spectres. Captain is Master of the Marches.

 

9th company - training (scout) company - Provides the inital training for chapter recruits (think Camp Arthur Curry from Starship Troopers (By Rober A. Heinlen), meets that training portion from the Space Wolf books. Space Marine bootcamp). Captain is Master of Recruits. Churns out quality recruits for the 8th company, and from the 8th, once the have proven themselves, they will go onto the other companies as needed.

[Marshal Rohr]

NOOOOOOOOOOOO!

[soddinnutter]

NOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Eloquent.

[NightrawenII]

NOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Eloquent.

The hammer is elequant too, in it's own way. :D

 

Ahem, before the Brule the Spear breaks in with his usual tirade... It's possible, but unfortunately it doesn't solve your problems in any way. In fact, it creates a whole bunch of new problems.

[Ioldanach]

Ahem, before the Brule the Spear breaks in with his usual tirade...

You only call it a tirade because I have to use emphasis in presenting my incontrovertibly correct arguments in order to get through to some of you. :o

 

...It's possible...

And it appears there's hope since even you have finally admitted the truth. :lol:

 

For the OP, the question about whether or not the Black Templars have Successors comes up occasionally, most recently here (wherein I gave one of my "tirades" ;) ).

 

To look at what you want to do, though, you don't need to use the Black Templars as your progenitor in order to achieve your objective.

 

I have to admit that while I think the "no Black Templars Successors" crew is flat out wrong, there is validity in their arguments. What that means to me is that using the Black Templars as your progenitor creates a number of challenges that you have to overcome. If your goal is to create a non-Codex Chapter, you don't need the Black Templars to do that. The fluff allows for any Chapter to be used as the progenitor. The Ultramarines may be staunch adherents of the Codex Astartes, but their 2nd Founding Successor, the Mortifactors, are not. There are plenty of examples of other Chapters that deviate from the Codex Astartes in varying scope and scale, so it's conceivable that your Chapter may have begun as Codex adherent, then later deviated based on its own experiences and teachings. It's also possible for Chapters to largely adhere to the Codex Astartes while having significant deviations from the norm (Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Exorcists, etc.). There are even current DIY efforts here in Liber that demonstrate that principle fairly well.

 

Looking at your concept, the 1st Company still exists, but the various squads are dispatched to support the Chapter's various strike forces and companies. That's generally the norm for a Space Marine Chapter, so it isn't really a "non-Codex" deviation.

 

As for replacement of one of the normal (Reserve?) companies with an additional Scout company, you might look to the Exorcists as an example. They have two additional Scout companies, but that is due to the unusually rigorous indoctrination procedures that Chapter uses and is intended to allow for them to sustain the normal influx of battle-brothers into the Chapter. More importantly for your Chapter, though, is the implications of an additional Scout company with regards to recruiting. Space Marine Chapters are generally only able to recruit a handful of prospective neophytes. Some are able to recruit more simply because of a larger recruiting base (e.g., the Black Templars have Chapter Keeps all over the galaxy). Those that recruit from only one or a few planets, however, tend to bring in a trickle of aspirants. What you're proposing to do implies a doubling of potential aspirants. There are always ways to make this happen, but some might call you to task to provide a reasonable explanation.

 

I'll propose an alternative, though, and this parallels trub's Shadow Falcons idea. Perhaps your Chapter might have one Scout (Recruit) Company and one Scout (Special) Company. The Scout (Recruit) Company is the standard Tenth Company, while the Scout (Special) Company replaces one of the reserve companies and is composed of full battle-brothers that are specially trained for this type of mission. The main problem with this idea is that it can't really be represented on the tabletop due to rules and profiles. You might use homegrown rules for it, however.

 

Personally, I'd actually avoid the Imperial Fists, Iron Hands, and Blood Angels Legions. To me, the Legions most likely to produce a Successor Chapter such as you're describing would be the Raven Guard, followed by the Ultramarines. Using the Raven Guard to justify a stealthy (okay, Scout-heavy) Chapter seems a bit cliched at times, so you might consider thinking outside the box. You could use almost any other Chapter as a progenitor and develop a rationale for how it developed into what you envision, though (though you should probably avoid the Space Wolves as they've been known to have only one other Successor, the Wolf Brothers, who were later destroyed).

[NightrawenII]

Ahem, before the Brule the Spear breaks in with his usual tirade...

You only call it a tirade because I have to use emphasis in presenting my incontrovertibly correct arguments in order to get through to some of you. :o

The "incontrovertibly correct" arguments are your personal assumptions and interpretations of the lore and therefore subject of doubts and dismissal. In the same way like the arguments of your opponents.

 

You are no more correct than them and calling your personal assumptions "incontrovertibly correct" gives off vibe of obnoxious arrogance.

 

...It's possible...

And it appears there's hope since even you have finally admitted the truth. :lol:

Oh, you want me to say it? Ok.

Given the strong indirect evidence concerning the Black Templars successor, the chances of aforementioned existence are virtually nonexistant.

[Ioldanach]

It's not arrogant or obnoxious to say that the evidence doesn't tell us either way whether or not the Black Templars have Successors. That's all I've ever done.

 

Unfortunately, however, I think that some misinterpret what I'm saying, mistakenly thinking that I'm saying that the Black Templars do have Successors. That's not what I'm saying at all. I merely acknowledge the holes and how there might be some Black Templars Successors out there. Finding reasonable explanations for such Successors isn't difficult if you open up your mind a bit.

 

I agree - if I were to make a claim that the Black Templars definitely have Successors and I were to use flimsy evidence to support the assertion, I would be obnoxious and arrogant and presumptuous, just as much as those that make the opposite argument.

 

I haven't done that, though. All I've done is point out how the evidence we have isn't sufficient to support either conclusion.

 

Point of fact, though - I've been very clear in identifying the fact that I agree with the premise that if there are any Black Templars Successors they are probably very few. I won't go so far as to define an upper limit of how many such hypothetical Successors there might be, but I imagine that they would be a very small number. The basic evidence that players (mistakenly) use to say that the Black Templars have no Successors appears valid to me. The conclusion you and other players draw isn't valid, however, as it is partially based on assumptions. Games Workshop might come out and say that the Black Templars don't have any Successors, and I'll be fine with that if that's what they choose to do. They could just as easily say the opposite, however, and tell us that they have some Successors. If that happens, I suspect that some players will be very upset because it would go against their preconceived conclusion.

 

I'm not banging a drum saying that the Black Templars definitely have Successors, however, even though there are others that are banging the drum saying that the Black Templars definitely don't have Successors (even if they couch it in terms such as "...the chances of aforementioned existence are virtually nonexistant [sic]" or other statements that have been made concerning this argument).

 

And that's an interesting study in the dynamic here. There are players that (to me) appear to be rabidly opposed to the notion of the Black Templars having Successors. They are emotionally invested in the make believe universe. My issue, however, isn't with the game universe as I personally don't care whether or not the Black Templars have Successors. My issue is with players who set themselves up as some sort of moral authority, telling others what they can/cannot/should/should not do based on their own interpretations of the material.

 

To me, it's not that the issue is worth getting emotionally invested in. My concern is ensuring that players get the true picture rather than telling them that they should/should not do something when the official material allows for either.

 

This shouldn't be about the debate on whether or not the Black Templars have Successors, though. It should be about what Battle Brother Mecharius wants to do with his DIY Chapter. If he chooses to use the Black Templars as his progenitor and feels a need to provide a rationale, then I'll be here (with others) to help him develop that rationale (and those that are firmly opposed to the idea should stay out of that issue so as not to be disruptive). If he chooses to use some other Chapter as his progenitor, then that's his call, too, and I'm sure that more of us will be here to help. In the end, it's up to him on how he chooses to interpret and apply the fluff, and the rest of us should be here to provide the facts as we know them, our interpretations/opinions of those facts (clearly identifying that these are our interpretations/opinions), and our recommendations for developing/improving his Chapter (without beating dead horses).

 

As for the Black Templars Successor debate, it's gotten very repetitive and is nothing more than a disruption now. Perhaps we (the members of both camps) should work on another discussion to provide (not debate) the two possibilities and the varying bits of official material that support both conclusions. This might then be preserved as a single discussion/article that players might refer to in drawing their own conclusions without us having to resurrect it in every discussion in which the question comes up. It just seems to me that it devolves into bickering that doesn't help the larger discussion, and I dislike being part of any disrupting element. We can agree to disagree on the conclusions, while working together to fairly present both sides of the issue.

[Marshal Rohr]

No one is attempting to be a moral authority. We are merely pointing out it would be highly unlikely for Templars to have successors. If it did happen it would be a rare, rare case not frequently repeated. So rare in fact, it makes very little sense for a DIY to try it, given its improbability.

 

People are free to do as they like though. Thats why no one has come and burnt down your house or killed your puppy.

[Iron Lord]

A chapter created with geneseed from the Templars would be an Imperial Fist successor (successors are listed from the first founding chapter).

 

Its quite possible for a Chapter to be founded using BT geneseed, or any geneseed, and decide to break from the codex strictures.

 

It's not unheard of for a Chapter's "predecessor" (the chapter whose geneseed contributed to the newly founded chapter) to be listed, as well as its "primogenitor" (ultimate predecessor)

 

The Badab War books mention:

 

Mantis Warriors- Predecessor- Marauders, Primogenitor- White Scars

Marines Errant- Predecessor- Eagle Warriors, Primogenitor- Ultramarines.

 

So- if the Black Templars had a "successor" or "descendant" it would have the Black Templars as a Predecessor, and the Imperial Fists as a Primogenitor.

 

Now the probability of such an event occurring is pretty low- but there might be convincing ways of explaining it.

Like- a crusading Marshal achieved some stupendous service for the Imperium, losing much of his Crusade in the process, and the High Lords of the time decided (since a Founding was in process around that time) to utilitize his geneseed, and that of the survivors of his crusade, to form a new Chapter to be based in the relevant region- maybe to watch or patrol it.

 

Or- during the 21st Cursed Founding, one of the various geneseed sets experimented on, was that of the Black Templars- since, while their tithes are erratic, they do nontheless tithe.

 

In the Deathwatch book Rites of Battle: on page 17:, it discusses the issue of successors of successor chapters:

 

It is entirely possible that these Successors have sired further generations who follow their traditions over those of the original legion. For example, the Black Templars are a Successor of the Imperial Fists, and have their own, distinctive set of rules to represent their own unique character. While a new Imperial Fists Successor could be created from the Imperial Fists own gene-stock, it could also be created from that of the Black Templars. If you wish your new Chapter to be an inheritor of one of these distinct Successors, simply choose one (such as the Storm Wardens) or randomise. For example, if you rolled Imperial Fists on table 1-3: Progenitor, you could further randomise between the Balck Templars and Crimson Fists, both of whom have their own set of rules, and use that set as the template drawn from that Chapter.

[Brother Tyler]

All anyone needs in order to justify a DIY Successor of the Black Templars is for the possibility of just one Successor. After all, when it comes to DIYs, nobody else's matters (unless the creator wants someone else's DIY to matter, that is). If we go with the structure of canon as a skeleton/starting point that some of us (including myself) subscribe to, then the "default setting" for each DIY Chapter is that it effectively creates a parallel universe in which the DIY Chapter is the only addition to the canon. Players can always choose to include others' DIYs in their own shadow universe, however, but that is a choice they make. Barring any explicit decision in this direction, though, each DIY should be considered as a stand alone entity without regard for what others may have done. This keeps things neat and tidy and allows for twenty bazillion Spartan DIYs without them cluttering up the "real" game universe.

 

It's fortunate for everyone that wants to make a Black Templar Successor that the official background material allows it now, isn't it? (And the Deathwatch quote pretty much drives that point home beyond any reasonable argument) :)

 

As far as lineage and succession goes, I think that we're all in violent agreement. A Successor will have some Chapter as its progenitor. In addition, the Successor's lineage will also be traced back to the Legion and Primarch from which its gene-seed ultimately originated. So yes, a hypothetical Successor of the Black Templars would consider the Black Templars Chapter to be its progenitor and the Imperial Fists Legion (not Chapter) and the primarch Rogal Dorn as its ultimate gene-seed source.

 

So let's get back to the real discussion at hand...

 

Battle Brother Mecharius - have you made any decisions on this?

[Lady_Mournival]

To look at what you want to do, though, you don't need to use the Black Templars as your progenitor in order to achieve your objective.

The fluff allows for any Chapter to be used as the progenitor. The Ultramarines may be staunch adherents of the Codex Astartes, but their 2nd Founding Successor, the Mortifactors, are not. There are plenty of examples of other Chapters that deviate from the Codex Astartes in varying scope and scale, so it's conceivable that your Chapter may have begun as Codex adherent, then later deviated based on its own experiences and teachings. It's also possible for Chapters to largely adhere to the Codex Astartes while having significant deviations from the norm (Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Exorcists, etc.). There are even current DIY efforts here in Liber that demonstrate that principle fairly well.

 

Looking at your concept, the 1st Company still exists, but the various squads are dispatched to support the Chapter's various strike forces and companies. That's generally the norm for a Space Marine Chapter, so it isn't really a "non-Codex" deviation.

 

As for replacement of one of the normal (Reserve?) companies with an additional Scout company, you might look to the Exorcists as an example. They have two additional Scout companies, but that is due to the unusually rigorous indoctrination procedures that Chapter uses and is intended to allow for them to sustain the normal influx of battle-brothers into the Chapter. More importantly for your Chapter, though, is the implications of an additional Scout company with regards to recruiting. Space Marine Chapters are generally only able to recruit a handful of prospective neophytes. Some are able to recruit more simply because of a larger recruiting base (e.g., the Black Templars have Chapter Keeps all over the galaxy). Those that recruit from only one or a few planets, however, tend to bring in a trickle of aspirants. What you're proposing to do implies a doubling of potential aspirants. There are always ways to make this happen, but some might call you to task to provide a reasonable explanation.

 

I'll propose an alternative, though, and this parallels trub's Shadow Falcons idea. Perhaps your Chapter might have one Scout (Recruit) Company and one Scout (Special) Company. The Scout (Recruit) Company is the standard Tenth Company, while the Scout (Special) Company replaces one of the reserve companies and is composed of full battle-brothers that are specially trained for this type of mission. The main problem with this idea is that it can't really be represented on the tabletop due to rules and profiles. You might use homegrown rules for it, however.

 

Personally, I'd actually avoid the Imperial Fists, Iron Hands, and Blood Angels Legions. To me, the Legions most likely to produce a Successor Chapter such as you're describing would be the Raven Guard, followed by the Ultramarines. Using the Raven Guard to justify a stealthy (okay, Scout-heavy) Chapter seems a bit cliched at times, so you might consider thinking outside the box. You could use almost any other Chapter as a progenitor and develop a rationale for how it developed into what you envision, though (though you should probably avoid the Space Wolves as they've been known to have only one other Successor, the Wolf Brothers, who were later destroyed).

 

Battle Brother Mecharius - have you made any decisions on this?

First thing is first, thanks for all the replies guys.

 

I have indeed made a decision..... sort've. So, as I posted in an earlier post, I have decided to kill the Black Templar idea, I like my librarians, and I plan to do another chapter with no libs later on down the line. As for the suggestion of Raven Guard, I can sort've see why they fit, but honeslty they just don't feel like the right chapter for the job to me, for some reason I can just picture an IF geneseed chapter would do the job of guarding (and eevenutally leading a campaign into) The Ghoul Stars. I'm honestly a bit torn though, so if you, my honoured battle-brothers, would give me your opinions once more, I would appreciate it.