Space Wolves

[Revelation]

I have read every single Horus Heresy novel, including Battle of the Fang (the last book in the trilogy between the Space Wolves and the Thousand Sons). And from what I read, it seems to be like Lemun Russ and the Space Wolves are the strongest chapter/legion created by the Emperor. The Emperor's executioners as stated by Wyrmblade, "We were bred to perform the tasks that no other Legion could, to fight with such extravagance that even our brother warriors would shrink from treachery in the knowledge of what we, the Rout, would do to them"..."That power was exercised more than once." (Battle of the Fang pgs. 418-419).

 

Even on warhammer40k.wikia.com (if whats written there should be taken seriously, as we all know anybody could write anything in a wiki), Leman Russ is made to seem like the strongest Primarch that even Constantine Valdor gained respect for him when Leman Russ defeated Horus in a duel.

 

Are the Space Wolves that strong? I always thought all Space Marines were of more or less equal streangth and abilities (Not including the Tactics, beliefs, ideologies, and fighting prowess of each Legion since thats what makes them different, A legion might be strong in one type of area of battle, and might be weak in another, such as the Raven Guards are experts at guerilla warfare, and the Alpha Legion experts at subterfuge, etc.). But since the Space Wolves and Leman Russ are used to execute and eliminate other Legions, it means they can adapt and excel in all different type of battlefields to be able to fight the other Legions in their own playingfield/playground.

 

I always thought the Ultramarines were the best and most adept of the Legions, since Primarch Gulliman wrote the codex Astartes to make his warriors (and all warriors of the Imperium of Man) able to fight and adapt in any circumstance and battlefield imaginable. They were also the largest legion as well.

 

I guess the Space Wolves were what the Emperor used to keep the other legionaries in line, since it is stated that the Space Wolves eliminating the Thousand Sons wasn't the first time they were used for that tasked....

[Billuriye]

All primarchs are roughly equal. Leman winning duel with Horus is BS. Avoid that wikia site like a plague. Use lexicanum if you must.

As for SW being the executioners, it's about their mentality not the strength. Magnus says SW are exemplary legion because of their sheer single minded, controlled savagery. As for the strongest legion, i'd rather take the word of an outside source than an astartes w*nking his own legion.

[Revelation]

Avoid that wikia site like a plague. Use lexicanum if you must.

 

I kinda figured that everything written in a wikia (in general) shouldn't be taken seriously at all. But what I mean is that if the Emperor used the Space Wolves to execute and eliminate other legions, wouldn't that make them efficient and adept at fighting in all different battlefields to be able to eliminate their brother legionaries? Even in Aurelian (idk if you were able to get the book or not) Lorgar states that Magnus is the most powerful of all the Primarchs, yet Leman Russ was able to defeat him (Magnus the Red was even using his immense mastery of Psychic power, something Leman Russ wasn't able to use). Guess it all comes down to just the fighting abilities of each Primarch.

 

I mean Lorgar almost got killed by Corax if it wasn't for the interference of Konrad Curze (A fight that happened after the events of Aurelian, for those who read it, an event that happened after Lorgar defeated the Guardian of the Kornes Throne Skull). So like i said, i guess it all comes down the fighting prowess and abilities of each individual Primarch, for they all might be like you said more or less equal in every way except in their mastery's of their abilities and fighting prowess.

[Billuriye]

But unlike other Astartes, they are not burdened by the morality of attacking a brother legion. Plus it's safe to assume that they were relatively numerous than the legions they are sent after and they took Imperial help just like Prospero.

[Týr]

Dude please... just stop.

 

Arguing who is the strongest is so stupid I really don't want go go to deep into why.

Stop all that "can X beat Y" or "is Y stronger than X" stuff. Nothing comes out of that is useful. This is a subjective topic. It's almost like saying "is the Vlka Fenryka the best legion" and it's just stupid. You are going nowhere.

And what do you mean by strongest? The sources indicate that the Vlka Fenryka wasn't the largest legion. So in that view, they are not the strongest. but could a great hero from the sixth legion beat a Luna Wolf? maby... if it was a "standard" legionaire from the Luna Wolves. What if it was a hero from Horus' own legion. Could the hero from the sixth beat abaddon... maby/maby not. You see? you are getting nowhere this way.

Sorry for all that, but just had to get it out.

 

I think you should rewrite your topic, and more focus on the nature of this "executioner role" the Legion has. I know it has been discussed, but it's very interesting debating, if this is true, or if it's just the Vlka Fenryka trying to justifiy their existence.

 

I belive the Vlka Fenryka are amongst the top three most special legions. They are the masters of controlled savagery. They are dangerous because they do the job no matter what it is, and no matter what it takes. They do not question their orders from the Allfather, hence giving them a nickname as the "Emperor's wolves".

They are really tough but definitely have their flaws. They are very single-minded and hence they leave everything behind them as ashes. This is clealy seen is A Thousand sons and Prospero burns where they do not care for the destruction they wreck. In Prospero burns you hear about them smashing, what I presume is an eldar craftworld, not caring for the vaulve it might have for the Imperium. Their orders was to kill the xenos, and they did but in that process destroyed a lot of vital knowledge.

And this state of single-minded behaviour makes them victims of manipulation. See Battle of the Fang and the end of Prospero Burns.

 

The strongest aspect, and the one I like the most about them, are their wisdom. I read somwhere in here, one who wrote, "the Thousand Sons have the raw talent and knowledge, but the Vlka fenryka have the wisdom".

I think the two legions are beautiful reflections of each other, and yet have so much in common.

The wisdom of the sixth legion probaly keeps them loyal to the Emperor. It keeps them cautious and off the path the Thousand Sons choose. One that is for the greater good and a loyal one, but in the end leed only to damnation for all involved.

 

The Vlka Fenryka is indeed one of the most dangerous legions. This is just my opinion so don't take it all to serious. This comes at a price though, as they are equally dangerous to themselves and their allies as they are to their enemies. I also belive that the "Horus-thing" mentions in Prospero Burns that the Vlka Fenryka is very dangerous, and one of the only legions that can threatens the great plans. And hence they have been played out against the Thousand Sons over very long time in an attemp to cripple them.

 

I have a lot more to say, but right now I can't remember them. I can talk for hours on my favourite legion, but for now I will lean back and se how all this evolves.

[Sons of Horus]

They are the Emperor's "executioners" because they are very very loyal. They will do whatever he commands them to do. Any legion could do the same IMO but they lack the single-minded loyalty to the big E

[G3rman]

No, they are just the most skilled at wiping out a target the Emperor says so, especially so other marines.

[Jonas Stromclaw]

I quite like what Tyr has said, but will add my own view anyway. Most legions have their 'thing' that they do really really well. Night lords scare people, alpha legion do guerilla warfare, White Scars do mobile warfare, World Eaters devastate everything, the list goes on. A few legions don't have one specific thing, but rather do a mix of things. Raven guard do both guerilla and mobile warfare, Luna wolves strategize like Ultramarines but fight with a word bearer's fervor. The thing about the Vlka Fenryka is that they are good at just about all of it. They can be as ferocious and bloody as a world eater, but are still in control. Their scouts are as wily as any Raven Guard or Alpha Legionnaire, if not as numerous. Their predator mentality adapts to tactical situations as well as any Ultramarine or Luna Wolf commander. Their rune priests, though lesser in number to the Thousand Sons, wield the warp with equal skill and are far more wary of it's tricks and traps. All of this and more is topped by unshakeable loyalty to the Allfather. Their adaptability combined with the faithful and bluntly literal execution of orders is why they were the Emperor's go to guys for the Prospero campaign. As for the unknown legions, all we have ever had are hints, so nothing concrete may be stated. Do the wolves have flaws? Yes. Do they fulfill every other legion's role? No. But do they do a :cussngood job at alot of tasks, making them an extremely versatile force, and they won't quit until either they're dead, or the enemy is.

 

Not that I'm biased or anything :devil:

[Gree]

Are the Space Wolves that strong? I always thought all Space Marines were of more or less equal streangth and abilities (Not including the Tactics, beliefs, ideologies, and fighting prowess of each Legion since thats what makes them different, A legion might be strong in one type of area of battle, and might be weak in another, such as the Raven Guards are experts at guerilla warfare, and the Alpha Legion experts at subterfuge, etc.). But since the Space Wolves and Leman Russ are used to execute and eliminate other Legions, it means they can adapt and excel in all different type of battlefields to be able to fight the other Legions in their own playingfield/playground.

 

I always thought the Ultramarines were the best and most adept of the Legions, since Primarch Gulliman wrote the codex Astartes to make his warriors (and all warriors of the Imperium of Man) able to fight and adapt in any circumstance and battlefield imaginable. They were also the largest legion as well.

 

I guess the Space Wolves were what the Emperor used to keep the other legionaries in line, since it is stated that the Space Wolves eliminating the Thousand Sons wasn't the first time they were used for that tasked....

 

Well then fridge logic creep in when you ask yourself ''If the Space Wolves are just as good if not better than other Legions at their specialties then why have other Legions in the first place and why not just create more Wolves or just use Russ's geneseed and training methods?''

[Billuriye]

Well then fridge logic creep in when you ask yourself ''If the Space Wolves are just as good if not better than other Legions at their specialties then why have other Legions in the first place and why not just create more Wolves or just use Russ's geneseed and training methods?''

 

Well because Russ' seed is too potent and picky for candidates and Emperor does not want to alienate his sons by being elitist prick. I'm playing the devil's advocate btw.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Well then fridge logic creep in when you ask yourself ''If the Space Wolves are just as good if not better than other Legions at their specialties then why have other Legions in the first place and why not just create more Wolves or just use Russ's geneseed and training methods?''

 

If the fluff says:

1] Don't wear your helmet, then don't wear your helmet - you look cooler.

2] Wear a back banner, or carry a banner, then get a banner ASAP - you look cooler and you and your bros fight harder.

3] Run through a storm of inconsequential small arms fire, then you jolly well run through it! - and you get to hack that cheeky fellow with your chainsword.

4] Capture a well defended planet with a half dozen of your boys, do it - and enjoy the glory.

5] Live for hundreds of years yet fighting constantly in more dangerous than anything on Earth circumstances, well, forget about retiring - and enjoy looking fabulous at 300 ;)

6] Wear gaudy and garish colours, because camo is for stooges, then polish that warplate till it blinds your foe with it's glare - you'll look cooler that way.

etc.

 

The fluff says it is so, and it is so :devil:

 

Rule of cool > Real life logic and deduction.

 

Question:

Why not make more Space Wolves, as one could out wrestle a squad of normal Marines?

Answer:

It doesn't matter. You're already cool with the 1-6, and have to accept that as fact to be playing 40K. By saying that "Well, if Wolves are better than regular Marines, why bother with other Marines? Therefore Wolves cannot be better than other Marines...." just doesn't work.

 

Wolves are better than other Marines. GW says so. And lo, it was so.

 

By using your rules and your deductions of 40K, all you do is invalid fluff that other dudes like, and fluff that is official.

 

I've already shared this with you, but you seem to want everyone else to conform to what you value in 40K, in spite of GW, and not Gree, being the ones running the fluff.

 

Does your interpretation have less flaws and loopholes than GW's? Sure. But that wouldn't be too hard ;)

By telling people the fluff they like doesn't work, has fallacies, is not logical, etc. you will just offend and put out people who are actually adhering to what GW writes.

 

Which I don't think will get you anywhere, really. I'm not saying your points are not intelligent. But that doesn't matter. It's not just a created situation, like something set on Earth, but a setting. GW's bag is fantasy. Incoherent fantasy. Flawed, inconsistent, fantasy.

And one that people are into.

 

Play Space Marine as an Imperial Fist (and get shot like a neon-lit target) or go all camo. It is easy to see camo > obvious signage. But that is not what the fluff is about. Even as shock troopers, no camo is just silliness. But that is the fluff.

 

I know you prefer UM, but you will just have to like or lump that a SW, one on one, is better. That's the fluff.

 

Don't worry, Wolves material is flawed, and without the 30K science to keep it working. So in the end, the stable UM win the lion's share of influence and stewardship of the Imperium.

 

You accept that without a problem, I assume?

So why the hang up about another bit of fluff that has your dudes (and everyone else's) behind the Wolves?

 

I won't be able to respond to your points, because it is not your points 'working' that is the problem. It's that they can't be used in GWland ;)

So me responding will just be us dancing in a circle, because your points are sound and not especially refutable as illogical, and you won't adhere to the paradigm that 40K needs to be seen through.

 

So we won't be arguing heads and tales from the one coin. It is not logical to argue when we're not even discussing the same thing.

 

Imagine this.

In baseball, it makes no sense to not to hit the ball where ever you want. Behind you and into the crowd. Bunt it onto the ground and pick it up and put into into your pocket, or better yet, throw it into the crowd. Then you'll be free to run around the diamond for that home run. Right?

 

Of course not. To 'be playing baseball' you need to follow the rules and give a legal hit, just like the pitcher must give you a legal pitch.

Anything that doesn't follow the rules of baseball, is not baseball. It doesn't matter if this new game is 'better' or 'more logical' or whatever than actual baseball. It is not baseball.

 

Just like 40Gree might make a lot more sense than 40K, it doesn't matter. It is not 40K. 40K is the game we've paid our money for and the fluff we submit to.

 

It doesn't matter that you need to hit only within the diamond, or that you cannot pitch the ball to injure the batter. Those are the rules, and the game that we have come to watch. Your game might be better, but we are not into that. We're into 40K, warts and all :devil:

 

I think this makes sense?

 

Ah well, good luck. The fluff won't change except as a retcon by GW's hand :P so it is up to you to come to the mountain :)

So to speak.

[LPetersson]

6] Wear gaudy and garish colours, because camo is for stooges... .

 

Camouflage is the colour of cowardice :D

 

Sorry, just had to point it out.

 

I had something of value to the OP, but everyone else has said it, i.e. the wolves are good at what they do, but they have a different niche from some of the other chapters...

But you can't really say they are the strongest...

[Captain Idaho]

If Space Wolves are better than other legions, then how did the Alpha Legion defeat a Great Company?

 

The Space Wolves are best at fighting the Space Wolf way but could lose if fighting to another's tune. That's warefare. :D

[Cerelius]

Well then fridge logic creep in when you ask yourself ''If the Space Wolves are just as good if not better than other Legions at their specialties then why have other Legions in the first place and why not just create more Wolves or just use Russ's geneseed and training methods?''

 

If the fluff says:

1] Don't wear your helmet, then don't wear your helmet - you look cooler.

2] Wear a back banner, or carry a banner, then get a banner ASAP - you look cooler and you and your bros fight harder.

3] Run through a storm of inconsequential small arms fire, then you jolly well run through it! - and you get to hack that cheeky fellow with your chainsword.

4] Capture a well defended planet with a half dozen of your boys, do it - and enjoy the glory.

5] Live for hundreds of years yet fighting constantly in more dangerous than anything on Earth circumstances, well, forget about retiring - and enjoy looking fabulous at 300 ;)

6] Wear gaudy and garish colours, because camo is for stooges, then polish that warplate till it blinds your foe with it's glare - you'll look cooler that way.

etc.

 

The fluff says it is so, and it is so :(

 

Rule of cool > Real life logic and deduction.

 

Question:

Why not make more Space Wolves, as one could out wrestle a squad of normal Marines?

Answer:

It doesn't matter. You're already cool with the 1-6, and have to accept that as fact to be playing 40K. By saying that "Well, if Wolves are better than regular Marines, why bother with other Marines? Therefore Wolves cannot be better than other Marines...." just doesn't work.

 

Wolves are better than other Marines. GW says so. And lo, it was so.

 

By using your rules and your deductions of 40K, all you do is invalid fluff that other dudes like, and fluff that is official.

 

I've already shared this with you, but you seem to want everyone else to conform to what you value in 40K, in spite of GW, and not Gree, being the ones running the fluff.

 

Does your interpretation have less flaws and loopholes than GW's? Sure. But that wouldn't be too hard ;)

By telling people the fluff they like doesn't work, has fallacies, is not logical, etc. you will just offend and put out people who are actually adhering to what GW writes.

 

Which I don't think will get you anywhere, really. I'm not saying your points are not intelligent. But that doesn't matter. It's not just a created situation, like something set on Earth, but a setting. GW's bag is fantasy. Incoherent fantasy. Flawed, inconsistent, fantasy.

And one that people are into.

 

Play Space Marine as an Imperial Fist (and get shot like a neon-lit target) or go all camo. It is easy to see camo > obvious signage. But that is not what the fluff is about. Even as shock troopers, no camo is just silliness. But that is the fluff.

 

I know you prefer UM, but you will just have to like or lump that a SW, one on one, is better. That's the fluff.

 

Don't worry, Wolves material is flawed, and without the 30K science to keep it working. So in the end, the stable UM win the lion's share of influence and stewardship of the Imperium.

 

You accept that without a problem, I assume?

So why the hang up about another bit of fluff that has your dudes (and everyone else's) behind the Wolves?

 

I won't be able to respond to your points, because it is not your points 'working' that is the problem. It's that they can't be used in GWland ;)

So me responding will just be us dancing in a circle, because your points are sound and not especially refutable as illogical, and you won't adhere to the paradigm that 40K needs to be seen through.

 

So we won't be arguing heads and tales from the one coin. It is not logical to argue when we're not even discussing the same thing.

 

Imagine this.

In baseball, it makes no sense to not to hit the ball where ever you want. Behind you and into the crowd. Bunt it onto the ground and pick it up and put into into your pocket, or better yet, throw it into the crowd. Then you'll be free to run around the diamond for that home run. Right?

 

Of course not. To 'be playing baseball' you need to follow the rules and give a legal hit, just like the pitcher must give you a legal pitch.

Anything that doesn't follow the rules of baseball, is not baseball. It doesn't matter if this new game is 'better' or 'more logical' or whatever than actual baseball. It is not baseball.

 

Just like 40Gree might make a lot more sense than 40K, it doesn't matter. It is not 40K. 40K is the game we've paid our money for and the fluff we submit to.

 

It doesn't matter that you need to hit only within the diamond, or that you cannot pitch the ball to injure the batter. Those are the rules, and the game that we have come to watch. Your game might be better, but we are not into that. We're into 40K, warts and all :D

 

I think this makes sense?

 

Ah well, good luck. The fluff won't change except as a retcon by GW's hand :P so it is up to you to come to the mountain :)

So to speak.

THIS

Space Wolves are the Alpha and the Omega end of story

having been in the fluff since 87 i could school you but the above answers it pretty sweetly.

Live with it

SW where mean't to be the Emperors Ultimate justice

[Billuriye]

THIS

Space Wolves are the Alpha and the Omega end of story

having been in the fluff since 87 i could school you but the above answers it pretty sweetly.

Live with it

SW where mean't to be the Emperors Ultimate justice

 

You don't sound fluffy at all.

[Sazabi24]

If they're the strongest, why did they need a :cussload of custodians and pariahs to beat the Thousand Sons? In both Thousand Sons and Battle for the Fang, the space wolves require <_< tons of psychic dampeners to not get their asses kicked. They're good at censuring other legions, but they can't do it by themselves.

[Gree]

Well then fridge logic creep in when you ask yourself ''If the Space Wolves are just as good if not better than other Legions at their specialties then why have other Legions in the first place and why not just create more Wolves or just use Russ's geneseed and training methods?''

 

If the fluff says:

1] Don't wear your helmet, then don't wear your helmet - you look cooler.

2] Wear a back banner, or carry a banner, then get a banner ASAP - you look cooler and you and your bros fight harder.

3] Run through a storm of inconsequential small arms fire, then you jolly well run through it! - and you get to hack that cheeky fellow with your chainsword.

4] Capture a well defended planet with a half dozen of your boys, do it - and enjoy the glory.

5] Live for hundreds of years yet fighting constantly in more dangerous than anything on Earth circumstances, well, forget about retiring - and enjoy looking fabulous at 300 ;)

6] Wear gaudy and garish colours, because camo is for stooges, then polish that warplate till it blinds your foe with it's glare - you'll look cooler that way.

etc.

 

The fluff says it is so, and it is so :)

 

Rule of cool > Real life logic and deduction.

 

Question:

Why not make more Space Wolves, as one could out wrestle a squad of normal Marines?

Answer:

It doesn't matter. You're already cool with the 1-6, and have to accept that as fact to be playing 40K. By saying that "Well, if Wolves are better than regular Marines, why bother with other Marines? Therefore Wolves cannot be better than other Marines...." just doesn't work.

 

Unfourtunately said logic falls apart when we have logical fluff explanations for all of those(Which some of which I would note seem to be purely modeling choices that don't really show up in the fluff).

 

But besides, accepting other fluff mistakes is no excuse for accepting another gaping plot hole in the fluff.

 

Wolves are better than other Marines. GW says so. And lo, it was so.

 

By using your rules and your deductions of 40K, all you do is invalid fluff that other dudes like, and fluff that is official.

 

GW also claims that the Ultramarines are the best and everybody wants to be like them. Ever hear of Mat Ward? <_<

 

I've already shared this with you, but you seem to want everyone else to conform to what you value in 40K, in spite of GW, and not Gree, being the ones running the fluff.

 

Not at all, people are entitled to their opinion. I just poke holes in the logic.

 

Does your interpretation have less flaws and loopholes than GW's? Sure. But that wouldn't be too hard ;)

By telling people the fluff they like doesn't work, has fallacies, is not logical, etc. you will just offend and put out people who are actually adhering to what GW writes.

 

Which I don't think will get you anywhere, really. I'm not saying your points are not intelligent. But that doesn't matter. It's not just a created situation, like something set on Earth, but a setting. GW's bag is fantasy. Incoherent fantasy. Flawed, inconsistent, fantasy.

And one that people are into.

 

Except GW susposedly strives to be consistant, this is simply an excuse for lazy writing.

 

Emperor help you if you ever go to Spacebattles. Those guys will tear you apart.

 

Imagine this.

In baseball, it makes no sense to not to hit the ball where ever you want. Behind you and into the crowd. Bunt it onto the ground and pick it up and put into into your pocket, or better yet, throw it into the crowd. Then you'll be free to run around the diamond for that home run. Right?

 

Of course not. To 'be playing baseball' you need to follow the rules and give a legal hit, just like the pitcher must give you a legal pitch.

Anything that doesn't follow the rules of baseball, is not baseball. It doesn't matter if this new game is 'better' or 'more logical' or whatever than actual baseball. It is not baseball.

 

Just like 40Gree might make a lot more sense than 40K, it doesn't matter. It is not 40K. 40K is the game we've paid our money for and the fluff we submit to.

 

It doesn't matter that you need to hit only within the diamond, or that you cannot pitch the ball to injure the batter. Those are the rules, and the game that we have come to watch. Your game might be better, but we are not into that. We're into 40K, warts and all :lol:

 

I think this makes sense?

 

I have no idea what you just said.

Well then fridge logic creep in when you ask yourself ''If the Space Wolves are just as good if not better than other Legions at their specialties then why have other Legions in the first place and why not just create more Wolves or just use Russ's geneseed and training methods?''

 

Well because Russ' seed is too potent and picky for candidates and Emperor does not want to alienate his sons by being elitist prick. I'm playing the devil's advocate btw.

 

I would assume the Emperor to be smart emough to figure out how to improve in the geneseed by introducing it to other candiates (Reasonable, considering he created it.) And he has certainly shown himself to be ruthless enough to to whatever he wants.

 

If they're the strongest, why did they need a :cussload of custodians and pariahs to beat the Thousand Sons? In both Thousand Sons and Battle for the Fang, the space wolves require :cuss tons of psychic dampeners to not get their asses kicked. They're good at censuring other legions, but they can't do it by themselves.

 

Exactly.

[MagicMan]

....as stated by Wyrmblade, "We were bred to perform the tasks that no other Legion could, to fight with such extravagance that even our brother warriors would shrink from treachery in the knowledge of what we, the Rout, would do to them"..."That power was exercised more than once." (Battle of the Fang pgs. 418-419).

 

 

 

 

Don't want to get too into one of these round and round discussions but thought it interesting to point out...

 

 

It didn't seem to discourage anybody.

[Tyros]

They are not Ultramarines, 'nuff said.

[Legatus]

....as stated by Wyrmblade, "We were bred to perform the tasks that no other Legion could, to fight with such extravagance that even our brother warriors would shrink from treachery in the knowledge of what we, the Rout, would do to them"..."That power was exercised more than once." (Battle of the Fang pgs. 418-419).

Dan Abnett had also not heard of the World Eaters and the Night Lords before. He reads up on those Legiomathingies when it becomes important for his novel. :)

[Grimdarkness]

Are the wolfs the strongest?

 

No there one of the smallest legions.

 

Are they the best fighter's?

 

No luna wolfs and the dark angles are better victory wise even the ultramarines per 2nd Ed are better.

 

Are the wolfs single minded and ruthless?

 

Yes but so are the world eaters and iron hands heck even the death guard.

 

Should other legion fear them.

 

Maybe but there's also the raven guard and the night lords to consider as there M.O are fear and being the sneaky type. Plus the ultramarines and the word bearers could eat them for lunch and still have marines left over.

 

It all depends an how big a fanboy you are. My legion can beat up your legion is fun for a while but it gets old fast.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Well then fridge logic creep in when you ask yourself ''If the Space Wolves are just as good if not better than other Legions at their specialties then why have other Legions in the first place and why not just create more Wolves or just use Russ's geneseed and training methods?''

 

If the fluff says:

1] Don't wear your helmet, then don't wear your helmet - you look cooler.

2] Wear a back banner, or carry a banner, then get a banner ASAP - you look cooler and you and your bros fight harder.

3] Run through a storm of inconsequential small arms fire, then you jolly well run through it! - and you get to hack that cheeky fellow with your chainsword.

4] Capture a well defended planet with a half dozen of your boys, do it - and enjoy the glory.

5] Live for hundreds of years yet fighting constantly in more dangerous than anything on Earth circumstances, well, forget about retiring - and enjoy looking fabulous at 300 ;)

6] Wear gaudy and garish colours, because camo is for stooges, then polish that warplate till it blinds your foe with it's glare - you'll look cooler that way.

etc.

 

The fluff says it is so, and it is so :)

 

Rule of cool > Real life logic and deduction.

 

Question:

Why not make more Space Wolves, as one could out wrestle a squad of normal Marines?

Answer:

It doesn't matter. You're already cool with the 1-6, and have to accept that as fact to be playing 40K. By saying that "Well, if Wolves are better than regular Marines, why bother with other Marines? Therefore Wolves cannot be better than other Marines...." just doesn't work.

 

Unfourtunately said logic falls apart when we have logical fluff explanations for all of those(Which some of which I would note seem to be purely modeling choices that don't really show up in the fluff).

 

But besides, accepting other fluff mistakes is no excuse for accepting another gaping plot hole in the fluff.

 

Wolves are better than other Marines. GW says so. And lo, it was so.

 

By using your rules and your deductions of 40K, all you do is invalid fluff that other dudes like, and fluff that is official.

 

GW also claims that the Ultramarines are the best and everybody wants to be like them. Ever hear of Mat Ward? ;)

 

I've already shared this with you, but you seem to want everyone else to conform to what you value in 40K, in spite of GW, and not Gree, being the ones running the fluff.

 

Not at all, people are entitled to their opinion. I just poke holes in the logic.

 

Does your interpretation have less flaws and loopholes than GW's? Sure. But that wouldn't be too hard ;)

By telling people the fluff they like doesn't work, has fallacies, is not logical, etc. you will just offend and put out people who are actually adhering to what GW writes.

 

Which I don't think will get you anywhere, really. I'm not saying your points are not intelligent. But that doesn't matter. It's not just a created situation, like something set on Earth, but a setting. GW's bag is fantasy. Incoherent fantasy. Flawed, inconsistent, fantasy.

And one that people are into.

 

Except GW susposedly strives to be consistant, this is simply an excuse for lazy writing.

 

Emperor help you if you ever go to Spacebattles. Those guys will tear you apart.

 

Imagine this.

In baseball, it makes no sense to not to hit the ball where ever you want. Behind you and into the crowd. Bunt it onto the ground and pick it up and put into into your pocket, or better yet, throw it into the crowd. Then you'll be free to run around the diamond for that home run. Right?

 

Of course not. To 'be playing baseball' you need to follow the rules and give a legal hit, just like the pitcher must give you a legal pitch.

Anything that doesn't follow the rules of baseball, is not baseball. It doesn't matter if this new game is 'better' or 'more logical' or whatever than actual baseball. It is not baseball.

 

Just like 40Gree might make a lot more sense than 40K, it doesn't matter. It is not 40K. 40K is the game we've paid our money for and the fluff we submit to.

 

It doesn't matter that you need to hit only within the diamond, or that you cannot pitch the ball to injure the batter. Those are the rules, and the game that we have come to watch. Your game might be better, but we are not into that. We're into 40K, warts and all ;)

 

I think this makes sense?

 

I have no idea what you just said.

Well then fridge logic creep in when you ask yourself ''If the Space Wolves are just as good if not better than other Legions at their specialties then why have other Legions in the first place and why not just create more Wolves or just use Russ's geneseed and training methods?''

 

Well because Russ' seed is too potent and picky for candidates and Emperor does not want to alienate his sons by being elitist prick. I'm playing the devil's advocate btw.

 

I would assume the Emperor to be smart emough to figure out how to improve in the geneseed by introducing it to other candiates (Reasonable, considering he created it.) And he has certainly shown himself to be ruthless enough to to whatever he wants.

 

If they're the strongest, why did they need a :cussload of custodians and pariahs to beat the Thousand Sons? In both Thousand Sons and Battle for the Fang, the space wolves require :cuss tons of psychic dampeners to not get their asses kicked. They're good at censuring other legions, but they can't do it by themselves.

 

Exactly.

 

I had hoped you would understand, but you just don't seem to want to. What I've said is how 40K is, and how it is to be viewed. That you can see the silliness and implausibility of what I've said means you have already identified things that are not quite right, but these are things that you must accept.

 

Like them? Maybe not. But those things are part of 40K, just like Bolters and the Emperor.

 

Poking holes in peoples GW's logic is very antisocial, because people have accepted that at face value, and that is what they've paid for. All they've done is adhered to what has been given to them.

 

It doesn't matter that Gree doesn't like it (even if for good reasons). People shouldn't have to put up with you skewering what they like.

 

Who said GW strives for consistency? GW? Ha!

So when an overweight man says he isn't overweight, just because he says it, does that mean he is not overweight? It doesn't matter eve if he wants to, is going to, or actually is losing weight, until his weight is gone, he is overweight.

 

They can strive all they want. That is a good thing. Have they reached it? No.

That Mat Ward you site. Well, I'll say no more about his fluff. Suffice to say it is not coherent with other parts. But if an UM fan loves it, who am I to tear it down?

 

The dudes at Spacebattles would not tear me apart. Even a little bit. Spacebattles?

 

For one thing, they are going at it backwards. "What I've said is how 40K is, and how it is to be viewed."

They are trying to fit in self pleasing logic into a setting where it doesn't belong. Which is exactly what you are doing in 40K.

There is no Start Trek/Star Wars/ Babylon5 melting pot of death and eternal war to see who has the coolest story.

 

Luke won't EVER be having vodka martinis with Jean Luc on the holo deck.

So the logic and impassioned arguments they have over it, is a COMPLETE LOAD OF PRETENCE.

Whilst Gree's Dad and Marshal Wilhelm's Dad could meet in Mexico and have a fight to determine who is the greatest, Luke battling Jean Luc is an impossibility* and so the discussion of completely irrelevant and illogical.

Trying to get a datum point that is common to both Luke and Jean Luc is flawed, and therefore a waste of time.

"Well, they both seem to be breathing air, which we'll assume is around 22% O₂"

"And a phaser seems somewhat like Han's blaster, so we'll assume the powa! level is on par."

 

Have an argument with someone really using logic, and they'll be surprised at such a ball drop. 'I thought we were talking logic? Why are you pretending things and making up stuff?'

 

A Spacebattles discussion is a flawed pretence. It doesn't matter how much logic you use after that pretense, it is all based on a foundation of a pretence, and so is flawed and completely illogical. No matter how correct they might be, after that point of pretending and making up stuff.

 

So I wouldn't get involved in their terribly flawed discussion, and would remain tear free.

 

Impossibility*

It is possible, when the writer's of all genres get together. Then what they have decided, becomes the 'it is so'

Not becomes some overzealous fans have to prove that their dudes are more coolzors than other dudes.

 

Baseball didn't make sense?

Okay. You have a system. It is only that system when it follows the rules exactly proscribed to it by the creator. GW is the creator. Gree sees the system has many flaws, and points them out. But there is the problem. You have just committed the same foundational mistake that the Spacebattles dudes have. What they said by supposing all genres come together into Armageddon, is wrong. It will never happen. Likewise, just becomes Gree thinks a half dozen Marines pwning, say, modern Earth is a load of phooey (and I guess it is) is 100% irrelevant.

40K isn't 40Gree. What Gree thinks makes sense is not related to how 40K actually is.

 

The thing is, you just don't want to accept 40K as it actually is. Which is your prerogative. But the problem is, instead of voicing your concerns to GW, the dudes who actually can affect a change, if they so wished to, you put your issues and views onto innocent fans, who happily enjoy 40K as given to them by GW. As they should be free to happily enjoy.

 

When you say "A half dozen Astartes cannot invade any particular planet, that's just daft" to a fan and they say "no, you're wrong", you are talking cross purposes, because your points have zero baring on theirs, and theirs have zero bearing on yours.

 

You don't preface your discussion with "Do you think this would be plausible in real life?" which would save people the bother in the first place of responding, because it is not in any way and in universe discussion. But you make an attack, or tear down peoples posts, but are using a paradigm that has absolutely nothing to do with their posts. At all.

 

I'm surprised you are allowed to get away with it, to be honest.

 

Imagine this:

Jimmy likes My Little Pony, and is happily discussing it with Bob. 'It was so cool how, blah, blah, blah, etc."

Gree comes along and starts pointing out how illogical MLP is, that ponies talking is illogical, and the chances of them sounding like American girls is beyond absurd. How did the ponies build anything? Why can the winged horses fly? ~ ad nauseum shutting down of the universe. This is completely irrelevant. MLP is, just exactly how the creators write it. To bad for Gree that he sees all the flaws of it.

 

It doesn't matter that you don't like things of the universe. They simply are, because GW wrote it.

 

That you don't preface your attacks on the fluff with "well I'm going to ignore the in universe rules that I don't like whilst holding other ones that I haven't got round to destroying yet" or "does this fit real life logic" makes me seem you are happy to play outside of the rules of the universe's fluff discussions, which will only result in you shooting down dudes points, because *gasp* 40K is flawed and illogical.

 

I think I realised this (that 40K is flawed and illogical) when I was still in Primary School. And no, I was not some genius student. I am only normal.

 

So I don't get how you can not accept that 40K is full of holes, and leave it be, instead of attacking peoples posts and tearing apart fluff that they like, just because it doesn't fit 'what Gree likes and consents to'.

 

You're not discussing anything. You're just telling people they are wrong. I don't think members of this board should have to put up with your fluff attacks. You don't discuss in universe things with in universe logic, and so dudes that respond with in universe logic are condemned to a long list of tit for tat "no, you're wrong" posts from Gree. Well sure, anyone can point out holes with 40K using RL logic. I gave you a list of 1-6. But see, you're okay with those ones, and it is common to everyone, so it is hard for you to shoot down. Something that doesn't support your view of Guilliman and the Ultramarines being the best? Oh, I better now use RL logic on that one....

So you use in universe logic on what is okay to you, and RL logic on those that don't match what you like?

Mmmhmmm.

 

So it is never actually a discussion with you, is it?

 

So why pretend you are discussing anything with anyone. You switch between codes to suit yourself. Not cool.

 

You've been doing this for all my time on the boards. You do the same thing with the Spider Man and Fire Lord "discussion". You are up on Spacebattles, another "let's argue your pov is wrong, using logic that is either from RL or from my show's universe, and not your show's universe."

 

I don't understand how you cannot see this method is very flawed.

I don't understand how you think you are actually discussing something with anyone else, and not just somewhere on the line of telling them they're wrong.

 

The problem is, not many others have watched you and deduced what you do, and so there are whole swathes of dudes hoping to engage you in discussion. But it is not a discussion, ever. They just line up for you to knock them down. People who are the wiser, don't bother posting, but that leaves all the other blokes to line up for a punch in the face.

 

Instead of those people complaining about it, they let it go and don't complain, and the issue of your in and out of universe arguing, is just left to slide.

 

I'm not sure how you get away with it, to be honest.

 

Your whole pretext for dealing with 40K doesn't work. It must be done from in universe. And as soon as you do it from in universe, whatever GW writes is the way it is. As soon as you start using RL logic, STOP. You are no longer discussing 40K by 40K.

 

Who would bother talking about My Little Ponies with anything like real life logic?

'Oh those ponies couldn't pick up anything with their hands, hurr hurr'

Well obviously that person doesn't get MLP. What kind of an intellect thinks pointing out such a thing works in any way or shape or form?

 

So how is that any different for 40K?

Because it has humans and science in it?

It is just as illogical and silly as MLP, if you really think about it.

 

Lighten up dude. And stop changing between methods of thinking. That is inconsistent.

 

This is my last post on talking fluff with you. You don't adhere to 40K fluff discussion rules, except when it suits you. So there really is no discussion.

Unlike the other guys who stop posting when you start, I have made a complaint to the Mods about this. The burden is now on them.

 

Hopefully, at the very least, other B&Cites will know what they are getting themselves in for when they line up for a punch in the face fluff 'discussion' with you.

 

Play by the discussion rules, and stop flip flopping between what suits you and then using RL logic for what doesn't, or kindly stop playing and sucking in other B&Cites into something that can only end with you showing them "how wrong they are"

 

Very sincerely, Marshal Wilhelm.

[ItCameFrom1994]

Grimdarkness is right, If I heard the Dark Angles were coming I'd mess myself.

 

The inconsistencies in the fluff are the product of many creative minds taking the ambiguous setting of 40k and illuminating what they personally think is accurate. Arguing of which canon is more accurate is akin to a religious debate - nobody knows and nobody can say for certain. Keep that in mind before you call people's thoughts "stupid".

 

That said I haven't seen any argument from the negative side that actually makes a really convincing point, the OP said Wolves have wiped out more than one legion and therefore is wondering if they are the most capable - it's a logical argument. Someone else said that they needed help to take out the TSons, ignoring that that doesn't mean that the Wolves aren't capable of destroying the TSons alone.

 

I personally think that one of the legions has to be the strongest, and believe that the Space Wolves would tear up Ultramarines in a fight - or at least out-drink them in the pub afterwards, it doesn't really matter to me what anybody else believes, but if they give some good evidence I may change my beliefs. Does anybody actually know canon that says "OP is wrong"?

 

Edit: beaten to the punch

[Gree]

I thought you said you weren’t going to reply.

 

I had hoped you would understand, but you just don't seem to want to.

 

I understand. It’s simply not relevant.

 

What I've said is how 40K is, and how it is to be viewed. That you can see the silliness and implausibility of what I've said means you have already identified things that are not quite right, but these are things that you must accept.

 

Like them? Maybe not. But those things are part of 40K, just like Bolters and the Emperor.

 

Not at all. When determining things we do have to use logic and suchforth.

 

Poking holes in peoples GW's logic is very antisocial, because people have accepted that at face value, and that is what they've paid for. All they've done is adhered to what has been given to them.

 

It doesn't matter that Gree doesn't like it (even if for good reasons). People shouldn't have to put up with you skewering what they like.

So we should all cover our ears and sing ‘’lalalalala’’ then?

 

Who said GW strives for consistency? GW? Ha!

 

From reading interviews from authors and suchlike GW does have a functioning IP department. It’s just they aren’t very good at their job.

 

So when an overweight man says he isn't overweight, just because he says it, does that mean he is not overweight? It doesn't matter eve if he wants to, is going to, or actually is losing weight, until his weight is gone, he is overweight.

 

…..wha?

 

That made no sense at all. I’m sorry.

 

The dudes at Spacebattles would not tear me apart. Even a little bit. Spacebattles?

 

And you have obviously never taken apart in an argument there. I’m a saint compared to certain posters.

 

For one thing, they are going at it backwards. "What I've said is how 40K is, and how it is to be viewed."

They are trying to fit in self pleasing logic into a setting where it doesn't belong. Which is exactly what you are doing in 40K.

Not at all.

 

Luke won't EVER be having vodka martinis with Jean Luc on the holo deck.

So the logic and impassioned arguments they have over it, is a COMPLETE LOAD OF PRETENCE.

 

Not at all. In said fictional settings we have something that’s called canon. Are you familiar with it? It is then used to determine which side would win in a fictional debate.

 

You are aware of the concept of a suspension of disbelief?

 

Whilst Gree's Dad and Marshal Wilhelm's Dad could meet in Mexico and have a fight to determine who is the greatest, Luke battling Jean Luc is an impossibility* and so the discussion of completely irrelevant and illogical.

 

Not all when we have established facts in said fictional setting.

 

Go to Spacebattles and tell them they can’t argue about versus debates. Let’s see how long you last.

 

"Well, they both seem to be breathing air, which we'll assume is around 22% O₂"

"And a phaser seems somewhat like Han's blaster, so we'll assume the powa! level is on par."

 

Have an argument with someone really using logic, and they'll be surprised at such a ball drop. 'I thought we were talking logic? Why are you pretending things and making up stuff?'

 

A Spacebattles discussion is a flawed pretence. It doesn't matter how much logic you use after that pretense, it is all based on a foundation of a pretence, and so is flawed and completely illogical. No matter how correct they might be, after that point of pretending and making up stuff.

 

Do you understand the concept of a suspension of disbelief?

 

Impossibility*

It is possible, when the writer's of all genres get together. Then what they have decided, becomes the 'it is so'

Not becomes some overzealous fans have to prove that their dudes are more coolzors than other dudes.

 

Quite false. Theses authors have established separate canon that clearly define limits. They don’t need to be in a shared universe to be compared.

For example one character is clearly established as hypersonic in another setting and a different character is established as supersonic in another.

 

Baseball didn't make sense?

 

No your example was phrased so strangely I had a hard time figuring our your point.

 

Okay. You have a system. It is only that system when it follows the rules exactly proscribed to it by the creator. GW is the creator. Gree sees the system has many flaws, and points them out. But there is the problem. You have just committed the same foundational mistake that the Spacebattles dudes have. What they said by supposing all genres come together into Armageddon, is wrong. It will never happen. Likewise, just becomes Gree thinks a half dozen Marines pwning, say, modern Earth is a load of phooey (and I guess it is) is 100% irrelevant.

40K isn't 40Gree. What Gree thinks makes sense is not related to how 40K actually is.

 

Like this for example. I don't get it.

 

The thing is, you just don't want to accept 40K as it actually is. Which is your prerogative. But the problem is, instead of voicing your concerns to GW, the dudes who actually can affect a change, if they so wished to, you put your issues and views onto innocent fans, who happily enjoy 40K as given to them by GW. As they should be free to happily enjoy.

 

You make me sound like some sort of mugger beating up a average citizens instead of critiquing a fictional setting as is well within my right as a fan. I am well within my rights as a fan to complain about other fans.

 

You might as well go to Legatus and tell him he can’t complain about McNeill.

 

Or you might as well go a anybody and tell them they can't complain about anything.

 

You don't preface your discussion with "Do you think this would be plausible in real life?" which would save people the bother in the first place of responding, because it is not in any way and in universe discussion. But you make an attack, or tear down peoples posts, but are using a paradigm that has absolutely nothing to do with their posts. At all.

 

You are quite incorrect. My posts take on what the 40k universe established in canon and uses that to measure.

 

I'm surprised you are allowed to get away with it, to be honest.

 

You mean like he hundreds of posters who have done the same thing on this board since it’s inception?

 

Imagine this:

Jimmy likes My Little Pony, and is happily discussing it with Bob. 'It was so cool how, blah, blah, blah, etc."

Gree comes along and starts pointing out how illogical MLP is, that ponies talking is illogical, and the chances of them sounding like American girls is beyond absurd. How did the ponies build anything? Why can the winged horses fly? ~ ad nauseum shutting down of the universe. This is completely irrelevant. MLP is, just exactly how the creators write it. To bad for Gree that he sees all the flaws of it.

 

Actually no. My Little Pony is clear established to have a functional magical history, completely explaining everything. As magic does not exist in real life we have little precedent otherwise.

 

So therefore I would not complain.

 

It doesn't matter that you don't like things of the universe. They simply are, because GW wrote it.

 

And it is completely in my right as a poster to point holes in the logic no matter how much you dislike it.

 

That you don't preface your attacks on the fluff with "well I'm going to ignore the in universe rules that I don't like whilst holding other ones that I haven't got round to destroying yet" or "does this fit real life logic" makes me seem you are happy to play outside of the rules of the universe's fluff discussions, which will only result in you shooting down dudes points, because *gasp* 40K is flawed and illogical.

 

Not at all. I acknowledge it’s written in the fluff then I point out the problems with such.

 

So I don't get how you can not accept that 40K is full of holes, and leave it be, instead of attacking peoples posts and tearing apart fluff that they like, just because it doesn't fit 'what Gree likes and consents to'.

 

Because I am well within my right to complain as I see fit, as long as it foes not violate board rules.

 

You're not discussing anything. You're just telling people they are wrong.

 

Well that kinda comes with discussing things now doesn’t it? It they are wrong then they are wrong.

 

I don't think members of this board should have to put up with your fluff attacks. You don't discuss in universe things with in universe logic, and so dudes that respond with in universe logic are condemned to a long list of tit for tat "no, you're wrong" posts from Gree.

 

Actually I do acknowledge things with in-universe logic.

 

Well sure, anyone can point out holes with 40K using RL logic. I gave you a list of 1-6. But see, you're okay with those ones, and it is common to everyone, so it is hard for you to shoot down. Something that doesn't support your view of Guilliman and the Ultramarines being the best? Oh, I better now use RL logic on that one....

 

Oh no, we at least have fluff explanations for why this is such. We don’t’ even have a satisfactory one for the Wolves.

 

So it is never actually a discussion with you, is it?

 

So why pretend you are discussing anything with anyone. You switch between codes to suit yourself. Not cool.

Because I do discuss things with people.

 

You've been doing this for all my time on the boards. You do the same thing with the Spider Man and Fire Lord "discussion". You are up on Spacebattles, another "let's argue your pov is wrong, using logic that is either from RL or from my show's universe, and not your show's universe."

 

You aren’t very familiar with Spacebattles debates are you? Canon for both universes are used.

[Gree]

Part Two

 

You've been doing this for all my time on the boards. You do the same thing with the Spider Man and Fire Lord "discussion". You are up on Spacebattles, another "let's argue your pov is wrong, using logic that is either from RL or from my show's universe, and not your show's universe."

 

You aren’t very familiar with Spacebattles debates are you? Canon for both universes are used.

 

I don't understand how you cannot see this method is very flawed.

 

Because it’s not.

 

I don't understand how you think you are actually discussing something with anyone else, and not just somewhere on the line of telling them they're wrong.

 

Because when people are wrong it’s logical to tell them they are wrong.

 

Who would bother talking about My Little Ponies with anything like real life logic?

'Oh those ponies couldn't pick up anything with their hands, hurr hurr'

Well obviously that person doesn't get MLP. What kind of an intellect thinks pointing out such a thing works in any way or shape or form?

 

So how is that any different for 40K?

Because it has humans and science in it?

It is just as illogical and silly as MLP, if you really think about it.

 

The pony canon is clearly established to be magic and therefore we can logically conclude everything operates by magic.

 

Lighten up dude. And stop changing between methods of thinking. That is inconsistent.

 

This is my last post on talking fluff with you. You don't adhere to 40K fluff discussion rules, except when it suits you. So there really is no discussion.

Unlike the other guys who stop posting when you start, I have made a complaint to the Mods about this. The burden is now on them.

 

Hopefully, at the very least, other B&Cites will know what they are getting themselves in for when they line up for a punch in the face fluff 'discussion' with you.

 

Play by the discussion rules, and stop flip flopping between what suits you and then using RL logic for what doesn't, or kindly stop playing and sucking in other B&Cites into something that can only end with you showing them "how wrong they are"

 

Very sincerely, Marshal Wilhelm.

I’ll conclude this right now.

 

You seem to be telling me I am unable to express my opinion and I am unable to critique things for some reason, conveniently ignoring the many, many posters on this very site who accomplish the same thing.

 

Your post, if I will be perfectly blunt is rather insulting and not much in the tone of the B & C. For some reason you have gone to extreme lengths to derail this thread so you can complain about another person exercising their opinion and right to critique fluff. I honestly feel harassed.

 

It is also very off topic I will note. You are not discussing the merits of the Space Wolves at all. I expect this topic to be closed, which is a pity, since there could have been an informative discussion coming out of it.