Space Wolves

[Legatus]

Does anybody actually know canon that says "OP is wrong"?

Yeah, I do. <_< But people might get touchy if I start whipping it out.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

I’ll conclude this right now.

 

You seem to be telling me I am unable to express my opinion and I am unable to critique things for some reason, conveniently ignoring the many, many posters on this very site who accomplish the same thing.

 

Your post, if I will be perfectly blunt is rather insulting and not much in the tone of the B & C. For some reason you have gone to extreme lengths to derail this thread so you can complain about another person exercising their opinion and right to critique fluff. I honestly feel harassed.

 

It is also very off topic I will note. You are not discussing the merits of the Space Wolves at all. I expect this topic to be closed, which is a pity, since there could have been an informative discussion coming out of it.

 

No, you just stomp right over everything anyone says that defies what you think is 40K. If that is expressing your opinion, then it shouldn't be expressed.

Not all opinion's are valid.

 

I have an opinion that I am right, and everyone should conform to what I think. It is an opinion, and I am entitled to express it even if it drives other users away. False.

 

I have to be blunt, because you need to be called out for your continued haranguing of those who don't put your UM and Guilliman first.

 

You have the cheek to say that my posts are not in the tone of B&C? Ha.

I have made it blunt so that you would get it, or at least that others would finally see that you refuse to get it.

Your behaviour is the one out of line with B&C, and this isn't just my pov, or the pov or fellow users. Take the hint.

 

You massively derail threads. So this is a second giant hypocrisy from you. I don't think I even need to link all the threads that have been locked because of your involvement. Or the in thread warnings Mods have sent your way. Suddenly your memory seems to have failed you?

 

You feel harassed? Maybe you do. When I shared with you that others drop out of threads because of your involvement, you said you were okay with that. So you're a bit delicate now, are you?

 

Your behaviour is thuggish Gree. When a good citizen crosses the road to help you fit in and stop being so anti-social, you don't like, and call out to the nearby police officer 'This man, he jay walked, do something about.'

 

Conveniently forgetting all your steppings over the line, as though you were a good citizen. What a laugh.

Well the Mod says stop, and I am a good boy and I stop. Forgetting that it was your very behaviour that got a Mod involved in the first place. You are fooling no-one with your 'I do what the Mods say, because I am law abiding' lines.

 

The Mods very much need to do something about your posts. You play the rules as they are written, and not the intent, so they don't feel empowered to do anything. Meanwhile, you continue posting and frustrating dudes with your inconsistent posts, while abiding B&Cites drop out.

What a joke. What a charade.

 

I'll also note that you never open a thread laying down your opinions, for others to cut to pieces. Or for them to ignore the thread. Seriously, how many dudes would bother posting in "well, I want to use out of universe logic to show that my guys are better than your guys" thread?

 

You wait for someone else to post something, then you bush whack him. Very cunning.

 

Smarten up Gree.

[Grimdarkness]

Grimdarkness is right, If I heard the Dark Angles were coming I'd mess myself.

 

 

What........ wait a minute I,m never right. Is that sarcasm?

[Gree]

No, you just stomp right over everything anyone says that defies what you think is 40K. If that is expressing your opinion, then it shouldn't be expressed.

Not all opinion's are valid.

 

All opinions are valid whether or not you agree with them.

 

And I thought you said your prievous post was your last post in the thread?

 

I have an opinion that I am right, and everyone should conform to what I think. It is an opinion, and I am entitled to express it even if it drives other users away. False.

 

It is certainly true. People are perfectly allowed to express their opinion. If people can’t meet them in arguments it’s hardly my fault.

 

I have to be blunt, because you need to be called out for your continued haranguing of those who don't put your UM and Guilliman first.

 

And apparently you seek to do this by making an off topic post to rant about how I am not allowed to express my opinion.

 

You have the cheek to say that my posts are not in the tone of B&C? Ha.

I have made it blunt so that you would get it, or at least that others would finally see that you refuse to get it.

 

You are launching personal attacks now. That is certainly not in the tone of B& C.

 

You feel harassed? Maybe you do. When I shared with you that others drop out of threads because of your involvement, you said you were okay with that. So you're a bit delicate now, are you?

 

Not at all. People are allowed their opinions even if they are wrong. I don’t exactly appreciate being told I can’t express my opinion.

 

Your behaviour is thuggish Gree. When a good citizen crosses the road to help you fit in and stop being so anti-social, you don't like, and call out to the nearby police officer 'This man, he jay walked, do something about.'

 

Another personal attack I see.

 

Althoguh, you are certainly not helping at all. In fact it seems you are simply complaining that I express my opinion.

 

Well the Mod says stop, and I am a good boy and I stop. Forgetting that it was your very behaviour that got a Mod involved in the first place. You are fooling no-one with your 'I do what the Mods say, because I am law abiding' lines.

 

What are you talking about? No mod has interceded in the thread yet.

 

The Mods very much need to do something about your posts. You play the rules as they are written, and not the intent, so they don't feel empowered to do anything. Meanwhile, you continue posting and frustrating dudes with your inconsistent posts, while abiding B&Cites drop out.

What a joke. What a charade.

 

I'll also note that you never open a thread laying down your opinions, for others to cut to pieces. Or for them to ignore the thread. Seriously, how many dudes would bother posting in "well, I want to use out of universe logic to show that my guys are better than your guys" thread?

 

You wait for someone else to post something, then you bush whack him. Very cunning.

 

Smarten up Gree.

I’ve had enough of this. The mods have been alerted. This thread has already been derailed enough.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Enough, both of you. You can discuss the via PMs or you can block each other. Any more of this, and your posts will be removed - and that may be but the beginning, if we deem it necessary. Understood?

 

Now, let's get this back on topic.

[Perrin]

Does anybody actually know canon that says "OP is wrong"?

Yeah, I do. ;) But people might get touchy if I start whipping it out.

 

I had to quote this.

 

On topic: These topics aren't really the best for discussion because inevitably fans of a certain character/legion will get worked up when someone doesn't agree with their candidate etc, so it just ends in really really really long posts filled with quotes and arguments that noone can be bothered to read except for the people actually arguing, like this one has. I wouldn't be suprised if things like this drove people to stop people posting on forums, it already made ADB not want to post here anymore (there were other factors too obviously). Everyone has the right to post what they think, but maaaaybe it could be focused, like Are the Space Wolves the best anti-marine Legion?

 

Even more On topic: Me thinks yes, the SW were made to be the Emperors Executioners, because they are so focused and loyal, and don't seem to question orders. They know exactly what their role is and don't try to dress it up as something grander, instead they just throw themselves at the task in hand. Then on the other hand, this would make them easy to manipulate (as Horus does) and an enemy like the Alpha Legion who use a lot of Spec Ops style plans, strategies and traps could easily take advantage of the SW narrow-mindedness, much like what happens in BotF.

[Legatus]

the SW were made to be the Emperors Executioners, because they are so focused and loyal, and don't seem to question orders.

I disagree on two accounts: First, the Space Wolves were not "made to be loyal and never question orders". Just like the Death Guard was not made to be totally traitorous. There was no particular intent behind how the Legions would eventually turn out. The Emperor did not set out to make a Legion of combat lunatics, one Legion of stealth ninjas, one Legion of sorcerers, etc. A lot of the Legions' specialities come from the culture of their particular homeworld, the upbringing of their Primarchs, and the genetic peculiarities of their Primarchs, which in turn had not been deliberate, but on most cases the result of Chaos tampering with their genetic structure.

Second, Prospero Burns/Dan Abnett doesn't say that the Space Wolves are the the executioners because they are so super loyal. They are said to be the executioners because they are the worst of the worst, completely terrifying, and you wouldn't wish them on your worst enemy. And that is just flat out not true. But apparently no one had told Dan Abnett about Legions such as the World Eaters or the Night Lords, Legions that are famously said to have caused troubling Imperial worlds to instantly cease all illegal activities if their mere presence was mentioned in the sector, Legions that had entire worlds surrender so as to not face their wrath. The Space Wolves, in stark contrast, while allways being described as ferrocious in combat, had also allways been described as somewhat of people's heroes, sticking up for the little man, their current Chapter Master being revered by Guardsmen all over the Imperium.

 

But then Dan Abnett had confessed to never really having been a fan of the Space Wolves, at least of their "space viking" concept, and he had set out to write them the way he would find them appealing. Perhaps it was inevitable that certain parts of the lore would be dismissed in the process.

[Gree]

the SW were made to be the Emperors Executioners, because they are so focused and loyal, and don't seem to question orders.

I disagree on two accounts: First, the Space Wolves were not "made to be loyal and never question orders". Just like the Death Guard was not made to be totally traitorous. There was no particular intent behind how the Legions would eventually turn out. The Emperor did not set out to make a Legion of combat lunatics, one Legion of stealth ninjas, one Legion of sorcerers, etc. A lot of the Legions' specialities come from the culture of their particular homeworld, the upbringing of their Primarchs, and the genetic peculiarities of their Primarchs, which in turn had not been deliberate, but on most cases the result of Chaos tampering with their genetic structure.

 

Actually we have a statement from a Rune Priest in Prospero Burns about how the Emperor made each of his Primarchs for a paticular task and role. Granted, it's presented as his opinion, but the Wolves certainly believe the Emperor made each Legion with a special task in mind.

[mc warhammer]

the SW were made to be the Emperors Executioners, because they are so focused and loyal, and don't seem to question orders.

I disagree on two accounts: First, the Space Wolves were not "made to be loyal and never question orders". Just like the Death Guard was not made to be totally traitorous. There was no particular intent behind how the Legions would eventually turn out. The Emperor did not set out to make a Legion of combat lunatics, one Legion of stealth ninjas, one Legion of sorcerers, etc. A lot of the Legions' specialities come from the culture of their particular homeworld, the upbringing of their Primarchs, and the genetic peculiarities of their Primarchs, which in turn had not been deliberate, but on most cases the result of Chaos tampering with their genetic structure.

Second, Prospero Burns/Dan Abnett doesn't say that the Space Wolves are the the executioners because they are so super loyal. They are said to be the executioners because they are the worst of the worst, completely terrifying, and you wouldn't wish them on your worst enemy. And that is just flat out not true. But apparently no one had told Dan Abnett about Legions such as the World Eaters or the Night Lords, Legions that are famously said to have caused troubling Imperial worlds to instantly cease all illegal activities if their mere presence was mentioned in the sector, Legions that had entire worlds surrender so as to not face their wrath. The Space Wolves, in stark contrast, while allways being described as ferrocious in combat, had also allways been described as somewhat of people's heroes, sticking up for the little man, their current Chapter Master being revered by Guardsmen all over the Imperium.

 

But then Dan Abnett had confessed to never really having been a fan of the Space Wolves, at least of their "space viking" concept, and he had set out to write them the way he would find them appealing. Perhaps it was inevitable that certain parts of the lore would be dismissed in the process.

 

 

Some thoughts.

 

40k Space Wolves have grown into quite a different chapter to that of their 30k forebears. So that's not necessarily an inconsistency of writing.

 

The book wasn't putting forward loyalty or ferociousness separately as qualities that made the SW the 'executioner legion' (in their own minds or anyone else's), it was the combination of the two. This was highlighted again and again in the text in key scenes.

 

As for designing his legions, we've got references to each primarch representing an aspect of the zodiac (Horus Rising), each primarch having a designated role (Prospero Burns), each primarch representing a facet of the emperor (The First Heretic), "faith" being built into the word bearer's gene-seed (TFH) and now with Deliverance Lost:

 

 

When examining the Source Material Nexin Orlandriaz (A Magos Genetor) tells Corax that each sample is unique. For example Sample Six is missing a whole strand of human DNA that has been replaced by something else, he posits it is animal DNA. Sample Four is engineered for physical endurance and has lower reaction and cognitive functions. And Sample 20 is missing a whole host of growth enhancements.

 

 

 

That was revealed by Lord of Night over at the Bolthole.

 

Certainly, with all that on hand, you could argue a decent case for the idea of gene-traits and for those traits having been purposefully engineered into the primarchs. Just as there is a case for chaos having been the influence. Right now, the evidence for the latter ain't quite as strong...

[Grimdarkness]

Off Topic the 4th legion is the iron warriors making them slow and stupid (my words) makes no sense. That is if there in numerical order which they appear to be.

[mc warhammer]

Actually, I copied and pasted LotN's mistake as well, which was a good thing cos you might have spoiled it.

 

 

Here's his corrected version, for the IW:

 

 

 

Wait sorry I got the wording wrong. Sample Four is described as missing genes that boost the genetic structure responsible for the development of nocireceptors and proprioceptors.

 

In English that means that those warriors with Sample Four don't feel pain the same way as others, it would be significantly lessened for them. They would also be a bit slower in movement than most.

 

[Legatus]

Certainly, with all that on hand, you could argue a decent case for the idea of gene-traits and for those traits having been purposefully engineered into the primarchs. Just as there is a case for chaos having been the influence. Right now, the evidence for the latter ain't quite as strong...

Chaos influencing the Primarchs' genetic structure is still mentioned in the current Codices:

 

"Legend goes on to tell how the Dark Gods of Chaos spirited away the Primarchs within their incubator capsules, scattering them widely throughout the Warp. More than one capsule was breached whilst it drifted through Warpspace - the forces of the Warp leaked in, wreaking havoc to the developing genetic material inside the capsule. Undoubtedly damage was done, although the nature of that damage would not become apparent until the Horus Heresy."

(5th Edition Codex Space Marines, p. 12)

 

"The forces of Chaos made off with the infants and carried them through the Warp. Unable to destroy the Primarchs because of the powerful protections laid on them by the EMperor, the daemonic powers nonetheless did their best to alter and mould the Emperor's work to their own evil ends. (...)

The pod that housed the infant Sanguinius came to rest upon the surface of Baal Secundus, at the place known as Angel's Fall. The infant Primarch was found by one of the wandering tribes of humans who called themselves the Folk of Pure Blood, or simply the Blood. The young Sanguinius' life almost came to an end then and there, for the touch of Chaos had changed him. Tiny vestigial wings, like those of an angel, emerged from his back."

(5th Edition Codex Blood Angels, p. 10)

 

But then, so are 10,000 strong Legions still mentioned in the Codices. It almost seems as though the Black Library crafts their own alternate WH40K universe. In the general Warhammer 40K universe, the Legions had been 10,000 strong, and the Primarchs had been altered by Chaos. In the Black Library 40K universe, the Legions had been 100,000 strong, and the Primarchs had all been deliberately created the way they turned out by the Emperor. (Though according to that logic, that would have included the negative traits of the Taitor Primarchs, so I am not giving much on this proposed theory of deliberateness.)

[Gree]

Certainly, with all that on hand, you could argue a decent case for the idea of gene-traits and for those traits having been purposefully engineered into the primarchs. Just as there is a case for chaos having been the influence. Right now, the evidence for the latter ain't quite as strong...

Chaos influencing the Primarchs' genetic structure is still mentioned in the current Codices:

 

"Legend goes on to tell how the Dark Gods of Chaos spirited away the Primarchs within their incubator capsules, scattering them widely throughout the Warp. More than one capsule was breached whilst it drifted through Warpspace - the forces of the Warp leaked in, wreaking havoc to the developing genetic material inside the capsule. Undoubtedly damage was done, although the nature of that damage would not become apparent until the Horus Heresy."

(5th Edition Codex Space Marines, p. 12)

 

"The forces of Chaos made off with the infants and carried them through the Warp. Unable to destroy the Primarchs because of the powerful protections laid on them by the EMperor, the daemonic powers nonetheless did their best to alter and mould the Emperor's work to their own evil ends. (...)

The pod that housed the infant Sanguinius came to rest upon the surface of Baal Secundus, at the place known as Angel's Fall. The infant Primarch was found by one of the wandering tribes of humans who called themselves the Folk of Pure Blood, or simply the Blood. The young Sanguinius' life almost came to an end then and there, for the touch of Chaos had changed him. Tiny vestigial wings, like those of an angel, emerged from his back."

(5th Edition Codex Blood Angels, p. 10)

 

That doesn’t explicitly contradict what is mentioned in the novels though.

[Legatus]

Just a pointer that probably the Emperor hadn't intentionally created a Legion of werewolves... :)

[Gree]

Just a pointer that probably the Emperor hadn't intentionally created a Legion of werewolves... :)

 

Actually Deliverance Lost notes that Sample Six has had it's DNA tampered with, and both A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns state that the Canis Helix existed on Fenris in the settlers and greatly imply the existance of the Canis Helix in the Space Wolf Legion was deliberate by the Emperor.

 

So yeah, he did set out to create a Legion of werewolves.

[Marshal Rohr]

Just a pointer that probably the Emperor hadn't intentionally created a Legion of werewolves... :rolleyes:

 

Actually Deliverance Lost notes that Sample Six has had it's DNA tampered with, and both A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns state that the Canis Helix existed on Fenris in the settlers and greatly imply the existance of the Canis Helix in the Space Wolf Legion was deliberate by the Emperor.

 

So yeah, he did set out to create a Legion of werewolves.

 

Do you know how ridiculous it makes you sound when you follow words like imply and note with definite statements?

 

It's like saying:

 

It is suggested that Testicular injuries may cause sterility. So you're sterile if you get hit in the nuts.

[Lord Ragnarok]

Get this on topic please.

[Race Bannon]

Posts need to stay on the topic created by the OP and build on the discussion, not against other posters for presenting a point of view or opinion.

[Gree]

EDIT: Did not see the mods post sorry.

[Grimdarkness]

Actually, I copied and pasted LotN's mistake as well, which was a good thing cos you might have spoiled it.

 

 

Here's his corrected version, for the IW:

 

 

 

Wait sorry I got the wording wrong. Sample Four is described as missing genes that boost the genetic structure responsible for the development of nocireceptors and proprioceptors.

 

In English that means that those warriors with Sample Four don't feel pain the same way as others, it would be significantly lessened for them. They would also be a bit slower in movement than most.

 

 

O.K thats better it's small but it is something from the HH for the IW. On topic dose this mean the emp knew where to find the primarchs after they where spirited away?

[Legatus]

Actually Deliverance Lost notes that Sample Six has had it's DNA tampered with, and both A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns state that the Canis Helix existed on Fenris in the settlers and greatly imply the existance of the Canis Helix in the Space Wolf Legion was deliberate by the Emperor.

 

So yeah, he did set out to create a Legion of werewolves.

I wonder why it is called the "Curse of the Wulfen", and not the "Emperor's blessing of the Wulfen", then. B)

[Wulf Vengis]

I wonder why it is called the "Curse of the Wulfen", and not the "Emperor's blessing of the Wulfen", then. B)

 

Because it wasnt The big E who did the tampering perhaps?

[Gree]

Actually Deliverance Lost notes that Sample Six has had it's DNA tampered with, and both A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns state that the Canis Helix existed on Fenris in the settlers and greatly imply the existance of the Canis Helix in the Space Wolf Legion was deliberate by the Emperor.

 

So yeah, he did set out to create a Legion of werewolves.

I wonder why it is called the "Curse of the Wulfen", and not the "Emperor's blessing of the Wulfen", then. B)

 

Because the Wolves see it as a test to week out the weak and unsuited.

 

Of course we don't have any indication the Wolves of the 41st Millenium had the same knowledge as their forebearers. (The Wolves operating on an oral tradition, loss of information is to be expected)

[Lord Ragnarok]

The debate is becoming less a debate and more of monologues and argumentative positions. I'd expect each post to point to how it substantiates their version of the argument. As this is largely subjective or believed to be the viewpoint of one faction or other in this "universe" I do not believe a fina,l definitive answer is available for the question "Are the Space Wolves the strongest"

 

Thus, we will close this thread to limit flames and the ever threatening presence of the mighty atomic merry go round of doom.