"Greenwing" Dark Angels

[Unforgiven2544]

Good Afternoon Fellow Gamers,

I've been working on my Dark Angels for a bit now (as well as some divergence into successor chapters), and I was wondering about trying to reconcile Dark Angel fluff into Codex: Space Marines.

 

For example: Sternguard Veterans

In Codex: Space Marines, Sternguard make up a portion of the 1st Company. In the Dark Angels the first company takes the field in Terminator armor.

My idea was this:

Since there are analogues between the Sternguard and the Company veterans, have my company vets fill in as sternguard (Given the weapon options, they could act as jump-pack-less vanguard, but that isn't the purpose of this topic here). But, should all of the veterans come from the same company? Or should the company veterans be drawn from multiple companies? The Dark Angel codex indicates that each company veteran squad is from the same company. (So I would need a 5th Company veteran squad(s) for that role)

 

Another post I made mentioned bikers that were not part of the Ravenwing. I won't rehash that here, but it would be a thing, right?

 

I'm planning on my Dark Angel 5th Company to be built using Codex Space Marines, but I want to be true to the icons, fluff, and organization of the Dark Angels as much as possible, while still accessing some of the more interesting choices from the codex (Thunderfire cannons, Ironclad Dreadnoughts, Sternguard, Honor Guard, etc)

 

Respectfully,

--Unforgiven

[Grimdarkness]

There your models you can do as you pleas but a lot off people take a dim view of playing big 4 marines with the csm dex or at least BT with the SW dex sort of thing.

 

The main reason the DA have a codex is that the death wing are terminator equipped all the tme and the 2nd company is mounted on bikes and land speeders.

 

I;d suggest a successor chapter using the C.SM.

[Bryan Blaire]

There your models you can do as you pleas but a lot off people take a dim view of playing big 4 marines with the csm dex or at least BT with the SW dex sort of thing.

 

The main reason the DA have a codex is that the death wing are terminator equipped all the tme and the 2nd company is mounted on bikes and land speeders.

 

I;d suggest a successor chapter using the C.SM.

 

:lol:

That's a silly reason to use the DA Codex while playing one of the Codex Compliant battle companies: because the 1st Company and 2nd Company are what give us a unique codex. A "lot of people" have a large stick up their keister (and be careful if they pull it out and start beating people with it) if they give a crap what codex you are using for your army, other than having some idea of what they are facing.

 

Unforgiven2544, if people have an issue with you using C:SM to represent a Codex Compliant battle company, that should be a signal to you to watch out for them attempting to power-game, etc. Why would they have an issue with you using a legitimate set of rules, unless they are potentially trying to manipulate the game in their favor? There's no fluff at issue there, you are using the Codex compliant rules to represent a Codex compliant company. It's exactly what the C:SM is supposed to represent.

 

As far as the Sternguard/Vanguard issue, the Company Vets are likely only one, possibly undermanned, squad from a company at a time (i.e. you'd only want one squad of them if you are sticking to a single company), but maybe they brought in some guys from other Companies to help in the battle, in which case, they'd likely wear the heraldry of the company they are from.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

nothing wrong with it at all, theres no reason not to use C:SM for the DA/any other chapter. Its just as easy to use C: DA for ultras as well, if you wanted to field an all termie army. You could even field the 8th company and use the BA codex, scoring Assault Marines and the like.

 

As long as its clear what codex you use and what each squad is, then you can use any codex out there.

[Grimdarkness]

It had being a long day and what makes sense in my head and what comes out on the forum never do match up.

 

I don't power game but I would ask your reason for running a divergent codex chapter with vanilla rules.

[Bryan Blaire]

GrimDarkness et al, I wasn't trying to imply you would be power-gaming, but around my local play areas, all the people I've seen making the argument that you need to stick to "your Codex" have been people wanting easier victories against things like Chaos Marines and Dark Angels. It's been similar arguments for and against ForgeWorld, etc. Rules are rules, fluff is fluff, and I don't honestly think that there's a lot of good fluff reflection in the rules right now (and there doesn't really need to be, IMO). Maybe I'd feel differently if GW produced rules and Codexes of a bit better quality, but even they have said their focus isn't necessarily on the rules before, instead on the models and stories.

 

As far as the DA being divergent, they aren't, except in the 1st and 2nd Companies and their upper command echelon. Their battle and reserve companies are 100% Codex, which is why people always argue that we don't even need a separate Codex (and legitimately, for Companies 3-10, that's true, and those companies are perfectly reflected by using the current C:SM). Now, maybe if GW embraced a little more divergence for the Dark Angels, that wouldn't be the case, but they haven't done that or given any indications that they are considering it.

[Captain Semper]

As far as the DA being divergent, they aren't, except in the 1st and 2nd Companies and their upper command echelon.

 

Why is 1st Comp. divergent? a lot of people seem to think that, I just don't get it. RW sure. But DW? They are just Termies equipped with Codex equipment... as Codex as they come.

[Bryan Blaire]

Unfortunately we really don't know what the Codex Astartes says about armament for the 1st Company. If it states that the proportion of Terminators to Veterans in Power Armor should remain at less than 100% Terminators, then that would be a divergence of the DA & Successors. Also, if the Codex states that assault Terminators and their weaponry load outs should not be mixed with the ranged variety, then that would be a second divergence for the Unforgiven.

 

Given the supposed flexibility of the Codex, I actually find it unlikely that any set up of an army is actually not covered, and divergence likely only comes due to matters of genetics or a refusal to split up a Legion per the Space Wolves/trim their numbers ala the Black Templars.

[Captain Semper]

I think that DW as a fighting force is 100% Codex compliant . The hidden agenda is a different thing.

 

Let me explain my view:

 

TDA for 1st Company is allowed. The fact that DAs use it for all 1st Company Veterans is a tactical choice that is not disallowed (to my knowledge) by the Codex. On the contrary the main reason other Chapters do not use the TDA for all their 1st Company Vets is the lack of such suits of armour in the quantities required.

 

Weapons loadout restrictions are just rules - not fluff. A good example of that is of course Space Hulk where you have a BA all-Termie force armed as it should for getting the job done. So we get mixed shooting/close combat Termies in one squad. Not only this should be possible from a background perspective but it should go without saying. The game of course needs to make some rules to give tactical distinction from one chapter to another but even that is not consistent in each edition/Codex. To me the equipment loadouts are just a game mechanism that can be altered in every Codex without touching the essence of the fluff.

 

So what i'm saying is that DW is just a paticular version of a fully Codex compliant 1st Company. I think a lot of people consider DW divergent because in their minds the secret muission and the status they have within the Chapter sets them apart from other loyalist Chapters equivalents. But at the face of it they comply fully with the Codex.

 

That's my take anyway ;)

[Bryan Blaire]

I don't remember the old Space Hulk stuff that well, but I don't recall being able to mix in Lightning Claws or Thunder Hammer + Shield in old games, second edition was storm bolters, power fists, power sword and heavy flamer only, IIRC (then again, the guys I was playing with were possibly lying to me some about what I could take). I recall that the modern Space Hulk actually referenced the oddity of Gideon keeping his Thunderhammer + Storm Shield while commanding a shooty squad (not sure if this was in White Dwarf, the actual Space Hulk rules or on the GW site for SH when it came out though), and I thought that the Lightning Claw guy wasn't actually a designated squad member, but the remanant of a previously destroyed unit. It may be a rules abstraction, but it does get played up by GW as a clear distinction in each edition, even though they could change it, and I don't recall anything about the Codex Astartes specifically designating one way or the other.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

I don't remember the old Space Hulk stuff that well, but I don't recall being able to mix in Lightning Claws or Thunder Hammer + Shield in old games, second edition was storm bolters, power fists, power sword and heavy flamer only, IIRC (then again, the guys I was playing with were possibly lying to me some about what I could take). I recall that the modern Space Hulk actually referenced the oddity of Gideon keeping his Thunderhammer + Storm Shield while commanding a shooty squad (not sure if this was in White Dwarf, the actual Space Hulk rules or on the GW site for SH when it came out though), and I thought that the Lightning Claw guy wasn't actually a designated squad member, but the remanant of a previously destroyed unit. It may be a rules abstraction, but it does get played up by GW as a clear distinction in each edition, even though they could change it, and I don't recall anything about the Codex Astartes specifically designating one way or the other.

 

C:Angels of Death

"Deathwing Squad:

Wargear:

Up to one model may replace his Storm bolter with a heavy weapon....

Any number of models may replace their Power fist with a weapon chosen from the Terminator Assault Weapons section of the Wargear list.

Power sword (sergeants only)

Lightning claws (pair)

Chainfist

Thunder hammer and storm shield."

 

The same was true of the Blood Angels Terminators in the book too. Whilst it says 'replace power fist' it looks as though choosing the Lightning claws or Thunder hammer & storm shield was a valid swap, and so lost the Storm bolter too. Otherwise no one can take Lightning claws or Hammernators :P

 

The other guys could have been tricking you, but they could have been reading the rules the wrong way by mistake :P

I mean, if you read it literally, you cannot swap a Power fist for a pair of weapons, which is the 'mistake ' your friends might have made. But if you use that logic, then Claw' or Hammer-nators could not have been taken by either BA or DA. I think GW assumed we would use our common sense for that one, but I can see how a mistake could have been made.

 

I just checked C:UM, and they had the same combinations allowable too. Interesting.

 

For C:DA from 3rd ed. the Deathwing could also have combined arms.

 

+++

 

I am very much for count as, and would be more than happy to play against members of the 1st Legion using C:SM. :D

 

Were you going to pick anyone to represent Stubborn (and if so, who) or you have no real want of that?

[Unforgiven2544]

My plan for the 5th Company was to use Pedro Kantor to "Count As" Master of the 5th Company.

 

I've already got a pretty decent model converted up (I think, anyway). and Once he's done being painted, I might show a pic or two of him. That will get me "Stubborn" and still provide for a useful character in the long run. The "Hold The Line" rule alone makes me feel giddy. (Even though I am being told on forums that my 'footslogger' marines will not be a viable playstyle. And I tell them they haven't seen our terrain setup. (Brutal Urban sums it up)

 

I am tempted to have a TH/SS Terminator 'Sergeant' that could count as Lysander, but I am not sure if that really fits with my playstyle. (Though his Bolter Drill with Sternguard would be pretty impressive, and his "Bolster Defenses" would be a wonderful boon considering our terrain layout.)

 

Very respectfully,

--Unforgiven

[Unforgiven2544]

My "Sternguard"

 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v160/SolarinStudio/Warhammer%2040k/Space%20Marines/Dark%20Angels/3rdCompanyTacticalSquad1.jpg

 

They are currently the 3rd Company; 1st Squad.

 

I plan on adding a couple combi-weapons into the mix, and have crux terminatus painted on their shoulders (remove a 'tactical' marine for a 'special weapon' marine, but still be able to blend together with the vertical tactical arrow, or function individually as a company veteran squad with the crux terminatus.

 

When I start doing 5th Company, the veteran squads will all have the veterancy helmets, and a bit more 'bling' (Battle Damage, accessories, oaths of moment, etc.).

 

Opinions?

[Marshal Wilhelm]

These look very good! :tu:

 

Your painting is great quality, and your conversions are all nice touches. :D

 

+++

 

Maybe 'Lysander' could be from Belial's cadre, and is a possible successor to Belial? He's hanging out with non-Deathwing as part of his training to potentially being the leader of the Deathwing someday.

 

Are Company Masters Deathwing? I have forgotten. :P

I would have thought so.

Maybe it is not one of Belial's cadre, but actually the Master of the Fifth, putting on his revered Terminator armour for some extra beatin' powa! ;)

 

If you are playing with a fair bit of terrain, infantry can do well. Especially for Cities of Death. The more open the board, the easier it is for AV to shine through.

 

Pedro is more of a buff and support IC. He won't be doing heaps of the damage himself, having a 4++ invulnerable save and being i1 due to his Power fist. But if he can buff something like Hammernators for +1a, that is even better than him doing the hitting himself :P

 

Will your Pedro look much like the real Pedro?

[Bryan Blaire]

I don't remember the old Space Hulk stuff that well, but I don't recall being able to mix in Lightning Claws or Thunder Hammer + Shield in old games, second edition was storm bolters, power fists, power sword and heavy flamer only, IIRC (then again, the guys I was playing with were possibly lying to me some about what I could take). I recall that the modern Space Hulk actually referenced the oddity of Gideon keeping his Thunderhammer + Storm Shield while commanding a shooty squad (not sure if this was in White Dwarf, the actual Space Hulk rules or on the GW site for SH when it came out though), and I thought that the Lightning Claw guy wasn't actually a designated squad member, but the remanant of a previously destroyed unit. It may be a rules abstraction, but it does get played up by GW as a clear distinction in each edition, even though they could change it, and I don't recall anything about the Codex Astartes specifically designating one way or the other.

 

C:Angels of Death

Right, but I was talking about the 2nd Edition of Space Hulk, as that's what CPT Semper was using as his example. I agree with you guys about the rules being a "fluff abstraction" to make the game play a certain way, but to me, it's odd how they seem to keep changing what is acceptable and what isn't (and to be honest, they have to keep developing new things, or people that have played the game for a while would get very bored), but that's a corner they actually wrote themselves into by stating that "There's this big blue book that states what is acceptable and what isn't, and if it isn't in there, you aren't compliant with the big blue book," and yet, the Codex Astartes almost seems to get redefined sometimes as having enough in it to make almost anything acceptable.

______________________________________________

 

Unforgiven, I really like your guys! I like the use of bone to indicate Veterans (that's what I use too)! :rolleyes:

[Unforgiven2544]

These look very good! :tu:

 

Your painting is great quality, and your conversions are all nice touches. :D

I am very happy with the painting. It's a collaborative effort. He does limited commission work, but doesn't have the time to advertise on forums. I do assembly and he does painting.

 

+++

 

Maybe 'Lysander' could be from Belial's cadre, and is a possible successor to Belial? He's hanging out with non-Deathwing as part of his training to potentially being the leader of the Deathwing someday.

I have "Sergeants" of the different deathwing squads able to "Count As" different terminator characters.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v160/SolarinStudio/Warhammer%2040k/Space%20Marines/Dark%20Angels/CompanyMasterSandalphon.jpg

My "Counts As" Lysander. (I have a Logan, An Arjac, an Abaddon, a Typhus, a Lysander, Njall, and several versions of Belial)

 

If you are playing with a fair bit of terrain, infantry can do well. Especially for Cities of Death. The more open the board, the easier it is for AV to shine through.

Right now, the only armor I have is AV 10. And that includes the Thunderfire cannon I use when I decide to play Codex: Space Marines. (Ok, that's not entirely true, I have drop pods and rhinos...but...)

 

Pedro is more of a buff and support IC. He won't be doing heaps of the damage himself, having a 4++ invulnerable save and being i1 due to his Power fist. But if he can buff something like Hammernators for +1a, that is even better than him doing the hitting himself :rolleyes:

When I am rocking a Codex: Space Marine army, I tend to have squads of 6. The extra attack for the hammers would be brutal, and the lightning claws just might kill everything quickly enough to prevent significant retaliatory attacks before the hammers clean up.

 

Will your Pedro look much like the real Pedro?

No. He has a powerfist and storm bolter, but I am using one of the Space Marine Chapter Masters as a base model

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_Custom...ain_445x319.jpg Replacing the sword with a storm bolter, power fist arm, and hooded DA head.

[Captain Semper]

I have to say, your miniatures look great! I particularly like your Angels of Redemption! Nicely posed and painted. I look forward to see your converted "Pedro". I have a good feeling about it :D.

 

Edit: @ Bryan Blair: Big Blue book? Hahaha :D

[KJB]

Ok, they look awesome, period.

[interogatortech]

If i want to use ravenwing or deathwing i use the DA codex but otherwise i use my Dark angles with the CSM just they have the dark angles insignias all over them.none argue wuth it as long as i let them know wich codex im using. my two cents

[HsojVvad]

*cough* Fallen *cough*. Just kidding there, just having some fun. I say use what ever codex you want. It's all fun. I ribbed a DA player espically since he had his DA (using the C:SM) hiding and cowering in his vehicles until turn 4 or 5. So I ribbed him that they were Fallen. :D

 

Beautiful minis you have painted there. great job. Just a bit of critism. Not sure how FLUFFY you want to be painting your minis. I noticed you don't have the Knee Cap painted in company colours. I don't like the knee caps painted, but just saying for Fluffy painting of true DA.