MSU: Devistators

[Master Melta]

So I am thinking about providing my marines with the following fire support.

 

The base of the army will likely be tacticals, terminators/sterngaurd, with a couple of dreads and landspeeder typhoons mixed in.

 

I was wondering what folks thought of 3 x the following:

 

5 Devistators, 1 Las Cannon with a TLLC Razorback.

 

They would run 200 points a unit and would obviously be fragile but the single shot fire support would be rather strong.

 

3 x BS5 Las cannons and 3 x TLLC.

 

Thoughts?

[Something Wycked]

Consider you're paying 100 points per Lascannon shot- even if one is BS 5 and one is TL.

 

If you put 4 LC in a 10 man Devastator unit, you're paying less than 100 points per LC (~335 for the unit, if I remember my codex right.)

 

Your setup is very flexible (if one shot is all you need to stop a unit, you're not wasting any others on it) but you're also paying a premium for that flexibility.

[Master Melta]

I hear you.

 

The armies that typically give me the most trouble are DE(1 shot las cannons own them and they have LOTS of things that need shooting) and guard where AV 12 is very prevelant.

 

I suppose the 10 man dev squad is more durable, but it's also 1 target, 2 at the most, where these are 6 targets that are more fragile but require splitting of fire.

[Something Wycked]

And there's the balance- cost vs. firepower vs. durability.

 

Just throwing out ideas to consider: 2x10 Devs, probably combat squadded, and using a cheaper Heavy choice in the third slot, like a TLLCxML Dreadnought... Thunderfire Cannon is worth considering for the simple reason that it can make those skimmers move as though they're in difficult terrain- and then switch firing modes and mulch their infantry after they disembark. Then there's the Tri-Las Predator, where you're paying ~165 points for 3 LC shots, with one TL. The Land Raider is expensive, but can be very effective in the fire support role as well.

 

I bring all this up because my experience with Devs (and I have 9 full units of them) is that if they're not in a 10 man squad, they're not worth taking as they simply die so quickly. Your mileage may vary, of course, as your opponents are not my opponents :tu:

[ak-73]

35 points for a single Lascannon? Really, Battle-Brothers?

 

I'd rather buy 2xLC for Sternguards and slap them in a Rhino (they can at least do something when the enemy gets closer). Much more likely I will put the Lascannons into Tactical squads though (or onto their Razorbacks). The only real good config for Devastators is Sarge+4xML (+empty LasPlas Razorback optionally).

 

 

Alex

[Mysticaria]

You could do that, but what about exchanging that 1x lascanon in the devs for 3x missile launchers. Seems like you'd get a lot more bang for your buck out of that.

 

If you are fighting against DE, when would you ever want 1 lascanon over 3 missiles? AV10-Av11 open topped should be good enough with missiles, and with their cover saves you'd want more shots rather than one big shot.

 

-Myst

[Something Wycked]

35 points for a single Lascannon? Really, Battle-Brothers?

Really. You think they're horribly expensive; they are pricey, but they are very effective.

 

I'd rather buy 2xLC for Sternguards and slap them in a Rhino (they can at least do something when the enemy gets closer).

I'd rather keep the Sternguards with Bolters and Combi-bolters since they are the only place to get Special Issue Ammo, and Lascannons are everywhere in the codex.

 

Much more likely I will put the Lascannons into Tactical squads though.

This never works for me. When rolling 1 die, success is very hit-or-miss. There's a huge chance that the shot misses or doesn't score a worthwhile damage result or is negated by a cover save.

 

The only real good config for Devastators is Sarge+4xML (+empty LasPlas Razorback optionally).

Opinion. :P Granted, ML are ridiculously underpriced for their utility and as such are very good choices, but Str 8 isn't fantastic against AV13/14.

 

Having 2, 3 or 4 LC hitting the same target is excellent insurance that it will go down.

 

If you are fighting against DE, when would you ever want 1 lascanon over 3 missiles?

He also fights IG with lots of AV12. ;)

[Master Melta]

and at least 2-4 regulars I play that are going to necron out. Aren't they AV13 until hurt?

 

S8 vs AV13 is fail, at least with S9 you are 50/50.

 

My elite slots are going to be filled up with all fast moving sternguard. No room for Las Cannons there unless I just drop all the combi-weapons.

 

Troops are tacticals and I have las cannons in 2 of 3, but for point savings I may reduce those to Missile Launchers.

 

I will round out with a couple Land Speeder typhoons.

[Something Wycked]

and at least 2-4 regulars I play that are going to necron out. Aren't they AV13 until hurt?

For the most part. There's at least one and maybe one more that are only AV11, and then of course the Monolith at AV14.

[Schultzhoffen]

What about x3 Predators with Auto/Las?

 

You save 240 points and could get x2 Dreads with Lascannons (nearly).

 

This gives you 8 Lascannons and 3(6shots) Autocannons. Plus, they are more durable than Razorbacks. The dreads also give you some CC to protect said tanks from assaulters.

[ak-73]

The only reliable way to penetrate AV 13 is short-range melta. Even Lascannons will end up in a fair number of wasted shots. 2/3 don't do anything, 5/6 with cover save. That sounds like some well-invested 35 points on Devastators. Per Lascannon.

 

Necrons are short-ranged, meaning they don't hurt much on Turn 1. Get 3 x 1 Land Speeder with MM. One or two will DS on Turn 2 and open up vehicles. The enemy will have to eliminate them, sparing you some more fire. Then you have another LS with MM coming down. Works best with Vulcan though.

In short: I don't think Lascannon Devs are the answer, especially not if you want to stay all-comers.

 

Alex

[cernunnos]

I am a fan of lascannons but don’t use them in devastator squads due to their price.

 

My MSU devastator build would be 2*ML and 1*PC in a 5 man squad and a TLLC Razorback. The Razorback is reasonably reliable being twin linked, and can target transports. Should it crack a transport the devastator squad can then hit it with 2 S8 AP3 shots and a plasma blast for MEQ or 3 blasts for GEQ. Alternatively the devastator squad can also fire on transports with the missile launchers decent in this role, should the razorback fail, or more anti-transport firepower be needed.

 

Whilst it is more costly than your suggestion (10% more,) it is more flexible and more effective. Two missile launchers are marginally better against AV11 and 12 than a single lascannon, and the plasma cannon provides a small additional boost. It also has far more anti-infantry firepower should this be a preferred target. I would say it is probably worth those 20 extra points. Dropping the plasma cannon would make the squad cheaper than the lascannon version and still perform better against transports and light infantry. Might be an option if your main opponents are Dark Eldar and Imperial Guard, but I do like to keep it around for its use against MEQ and TEQ.

[meatball]

The single real advantage of a single lascannon Dev squad is that it will not get shot at the entire game as there are more threatening units on the table and it will be very difficult to silence that single las with 4 meatshields to take wounds. So basically, that unit will fire the entire game.

 

I like Devs, I actually use a tri-missle launcher Dev squad in conjunction to my two predators, but the lascannon is simply not worth it on them. You are paying 50% of the squad's value for a single gun.

[ak-73]

LasPlas is generally better than TLLC on Razorbacks. If you get a weapon destroyed you still have TL Plasma to fire.

 

Alex

[Brother Valerius]

The only reliable way to penetrate AV 13 is short-range melta.

 

I really, wholeheartedly disagree. You have a 1/3 chance to penetrate with a lascannon, which is quite reliable enough unless you only brought like one or two lascannons. And let's not forget that glances aren't useless. You need to pen a vehicle to kill it outright, but glancing hits still slow the vehicle down.

[Chengar Qordath]

The only reliable way to penetrate AV 13 is short-range melta.

 

I really, wholeheartedly disagree. You have a 1/3 chance to penetrate with a lascannon, which is quite reliable enough unless you only brought like one or two lascannons. And let's not forget that glances aren't useless. You need to pen a vehicle to kill it outright, but glancing hits still slow the vehicle down.

Seconded. Lascannons might not be as killy as short-range melta, but being able to hit from 48" away is a pretty big benefit. Glances can still immobilize or destroy weapons. Against a Vindicator, Exorcist, Fire Prism, or any other tank that really only has one big gun, a weapon-destroyed is almost as effective as an outright kill.

 

Plus, in the specific context of the Necron Codex, most of their vehicles are open-topped, in which case a glancing hit can still kill outright.

[MagicMan]

I had a small game recently where a unit of 5 devastators with 3 missile launchers spent the game stunning my opponents Basilisk, meaning it couldn't shoot. Awful dice rolling stopped me from killing it, but when it can't shoot, who cares?

 

 

You don't need an outright kill to neutralise a vehicle.

[Corby]

35 points for a single Lascannon? Really, Battle-Brothers?

Really. You think they're horribly expensive; they are pricey, but they are very effective.

 

I'd rather buy 2xLC for Sternguards and slap them in a Rhino (they can at least do something when the enemy gets closer).

I'd rather keep the Sternguards with Bolters and Combi-bolters since they are the only place to get Special Issue Ammo, and Lascannons are everywhere in the codex.

 

Much more likely I will put the Lascannons into Tactical squads though.

This never works for me. When rolling 1 die, success is very hit-or-miss. There's a huge chance that the shot misses or doesn't score a worthwhile damage result or is negated by a cover save.

 

The only real good config for Devastators is Sarge+4xML (+empty LasPlas Razorback optionally).

Opinion. :) Granted, ML are ridiculously underpriced for their utility and as such are very good choices, but Str 8 isn't fantastic against AV13/14.

 

Having 2, 3 or 4 LC hitting the same target is excellent insurance that it will go down.

 

If you are fighting against DE, when would you ever want 1 lascanon over 3 missiles?

He also fights IG with lots of AV12. ;)

 

Single shot lascannons are a terrible idea. Volume of fire and mobility is whats needed in fifth edition. Relying on single shot weapons like lascannons to take down tanks means you're suspectible to missing altogther , failing to roll high enough on the damage chart , or a good chance of your shot being saved by cover. This is why volume of fire is so important , as by rolling more dice for your shooting you've a better chance of getting the results you need to shut down enemy vehicles. (Meltas being the exception as 2D6 penetration and +1 on the damage chart really makes them them effective)

 

While S8 isn't fanatastic against Av13 , it isn't terrible either and with volume of S8 shots (Psyflemen , Long fangs etc) you're more likely to get penetrating and glancing hits against vehicles.

While having several lascannons hitting the same target can be a good way of killing a target , you've to look at the opportunity cost of firing four lascannons into the same target , thus diminishing the amount of anti-tank you've for other targets.

 

To summarise , lascannons are good at penetrating vehicles due to their strength 9 , but they're horribly expensive points wise and lack volume of fire. Whereas missile launchers and autocannons are cheap and have volume of fire to make up for their short comings.

[Brother Valerius]

In what way does a missile launcher have more volume of fire than a lascannon? They both fire one shot. "I meant spamming missile launchers" isn't an answer, because you can spam lascannons too.

[Corby]

In what way does a missile launcher have more volume of fire than a lascannon? They both fire one shot. "I meant spamming missile launchers" isn't an answer, because you can spam lascannons too.

 

Missile launchers are relatively inexpensive in comparison to lascannons in codex space marines.

Lascannons are an inefficent anti-tank choice on devastators due to their increased points cost. you can of course spam lascannons (230points for 4 lascannons in a dev squad vs 150 points for a 4 missile launcher dev squad , in codex space marines that is. Its cheaper in other codexs , or put it this way , I can get 4 missile launchers for the cost 2 of two lascannons in a devastator squad and I still have 10 points to spare) , but you won't get the same number of lascannon shots verus missile launchers due to the increased points. my comment was also directed at the suggestion for 3 missile launchers over 1 lascannon , hence why I was refering to volume of fire.

[minigun762]

So I am thinking about providing my marines with the following fire support.

 

The base of the army will likely be tacticals, terminators/sterngaurd, with a couple of dreads and landspeeder typhoons mixed in.

 

I was wondering what folks thought of 3 x the following:

 

5 Devistators, 1 Las Cannon with a TLLC Razorback.

 

They would run 200 points a unit and would obviously be fragile but the single shot fire support would be rather strong.

 

3 x BS5 Las cannons and 3 x TLLC.

 

Thoughts?

 

If you wanted to go this route, why not use combat squads from Tac squads?

You lose out on the BS5 but you get the lascannon at a reduced price and count as scoring. It also frees up your heavy slots for other units.

[ak-73]

Lascannons have their place in a SM army, even more so due to newcrons. Just not in Devastator squads, no way.

Tactical squads? Check. LasPlas Backs? Double check. 5 Sternguards with 2xLC in Rhino? Well, okay. AutoLas pred, well, okay, if you insist.

 

Devastators with LCs? No way. You invested nearly 250 points in one unit, can penetrate with those near 250 points one newcron vehicle maximum and you can't be sure you get a penetration result (so that your auto-cannons elsewhere can try to take it out). At a 2/9 chance without figuring in cover, that's bad.

 

Alex

[Master Melta]

So I am thinking about providing my marines with the following fire support.

 

The base of the army will likely be tacticals, terminators/sterngaurd, with a couple of dreads and landspeeder typhoons mixed in.

 

I was wondering what folks thought of 3 x the following:

 

5 Devistators, 1 Las Cannon with a TLLC Razorback.

 

They would run 200 points a unit and would obviously be fragile but the single shot fire support would be rather strong.

 

3 x BS5 Las cannons and 3 x TLLC.

 

Thoughts?

 

If you wanted to go this route, why not use combat squads from Tac squads?

You lose out on the BS5 but you get the lascannon at a reduced price and count as scoring. It also frees up your heavy slots for other units.

 

 

Hot dog, that's actually a great idea since the tacticals come with better special weapon options.

 

The ONLY problem is you reduce your staying power with the mobile squads. 5 marines with 1 heavy on the board edge that don't score, no big deal. 5 that do, juicy target.

 

Thanks!

 

MM

[minigun762]

The ONLY problem is you reduce your staying power with the mobile squads. 5 marines with 1 heavy on the board edge that don't score, no big deal. 5 that do, juicy target.

 

True but then again you have 5 guys on the board that have an additional purpose beyond just firing a single heavy weapon and that can work in your favor. Its the old "if they're firing at X they aren't firing at Y" logic.

 

Depending on what special weapon you take, you could put it with the lascannon or give it to the other half of the combat squad. This also frees up the non-lascannon combat squad to go claim objectives or partially bubble wrap an important vehicle.

[Master Melta]

Also, it's a point increase as well, but not much.

 

My typical loadout is flamer/combi-flamer, Las cannon, rhino for 220

This would run probably with melta, las cannon, razorback, lasplas/TLLC 255-260.

 

That's a pretty tall order for 2 groups of 5 marines.