Entropic Strike and FnP

[Rybnick]

I had a debate over the removal of armor saves by the Entropic Strike special rule over the weekend and wanted to get the opinion of my fellow BA enthusiast's on our question.

 

Paraphrasing the rule for Entropic Strike it reads - Any model taking an unsaved wound from a unit with this special rule has their armor value reduced to - for the remainder of the game.

 

Pretty cut and dry no wiggle room for misinterpretation, but it got a little convaluted when we addded in the Feel No Pain USR.

 

Paraphrasing the Feel No Pain rule - Any model who suffers an unsaved wound that is not AP1-2, a power weapon or double the T of the model being wounded is eligible to make an additional save and on a 4+ ignores the wound.

 

I bolded the word that caused the debate. To me that means yes the armor save was failed by FnP passed so they completely ignore the wound and any negative effects the wound may have caused. My friend saw it differently that since the armor had failed but FnP succeeded that model lives but now has armor - for the remainder of the game.

 

I can see both sides of the story really, but what makes my way feel right is that it clearly states ignores the wound in the FnP rule but doesn't specifically state the effect happens even if the model lives in the entropic strike rule.

 

Anyone have any thought's on this?

 

(PS. Sorry if this is posted in the wrong section of the board, mod's feel free to move/delete if need be.)

[DV8]

I don't see the issue here. The Feel No Pain rule specifically states that it comes into play when a model suffers an unsaved wound. Similarly, Entropic Strike takes effect when a model suffers an unsaved wound. Just because FNP would allow you to potentially ignore the wound doesn't change the fact that you failed the save in the first place.

 

So what would happen is, if you failed your save (but passed your FNP roll), the Necron player would roll for Entropic Strike, and on a 4+ your armor would be reduced to "-". The model would then continue with however many wounds remaining, without an armor save.

 

It's also the same with working Entropic Strike on vehicles. Since you roll after To Hit, but before Penetration rolls, a unit of Scarabs can potentially reduce the armor of a vehicle low enough with their hits to actually hurt it with their Strength 3.

 

 

DV8

[Xenith]

Roll to hit, roll to wound, roll armour, roll FnP, failed fnp? then the model is dead and this is academic ;)

 

On multi wound characters, then they lose the armour, but keep the FnP.

 

Having Save '-' is not the same as being hit with an attack that never allows armour saves.

[JamesI]

in my opinion, this is the same as the Lemartes issue. When Lemartes takes a wound, fails his save and makes his FNP does that activate his "angry" mode?

 

I say it has no effect. The wound is ignored, so the entropic strike shouldn't happen (and this is how its been ruled for Lemartes/FNP everywhere I've ever seen)

[Morollan]

in my opinion, this is the same as the Lemartes issue. When Lemartes takes a wound, fails his save and makes his FNP does that activate his "angry" mode?

 

I say it has no effect. The wound is ignored, so the entropic strike shouldn't happen (and this is how its been ruled for Lemartes/FNP everywhere I've ever seen)

 

I'd disagree in both cases. In fact, I don't really see any ambiguity in the rules. The model suffers an unsaved wound and the effect is activated. Beneficial in the case of Lemartes or detrimental in the case of the entropic strike. Whether FNP then allows them to ignore the wound does not alter the fact that they suffered an unsaved wound in the first place.

[knife&fork]

While FNP isn't an armor save it's still a save.

[BlackKnight1239]

While FNP isn't an armor save it's still a save.

 

Yes, and it only triggers when you take an unsaved wound. An unsaved wound is still unsaved, even if it gets save after the fact.

[JamesI]

in my opinion, this is the same as the Lemartes issue. When Lemartes takes a wound, fails his save and makes his FNP does that activate his "angry" mode?

 

I say it has no effect. The wound is ignored, so the entropic strike shouldn't happen (and this is how its been ruled for Lemartes/FNP everywhere I've ever seen)

 

I'd disagree in both cases. In fact, I don't really see any ambiguity in the rules. The model suffers an unsaved wound and the effect is activated. Beneficial in the case of Lemartes or detrimental in the case of the entropic strike. Whether FNP then allows them to ignore the wound does not alter the fact that they suffered an unsaved wound in the first place.

Personally, I don't care either way as long as its consistent. My experience is people are ruling Entropic strike they way you say, and Lemartes the way I said.

[gustmic]

While FNP isn't an armor save it's still a save.

 

While not having the BRB in front of me, I am hesitant to call FNP a "save".

As we know, you are only allowed to take one "save", the best save. Doesn't matter if its a cover, armour, or a invulnerable save.

 

/gustmic

[AbusePuppy]

I don't see the issue here. The Feel No Pain rule specifically states that it comes into play when a model suffers an unsaved wound. Similarly, Entropic Strike takes effect when a model suffers an unsaved wound. Just because FNP would allow you to potentially ignore the wound doesn't change the fact that you failed the save in the first place.

 

Except that if you pass your FNP roll, you didn't take an unsaved wound because if you have, you would have lost a wound from your profile. Feel No Pain negates the wound entirely- it is "ignored," just as though it had never happened. The order in which effects are applied is very important here, because if Entropic is first, then the model loses its armor save, but if FNP is first, nothing happens. Unfortunately, this debate has already been around for quite a while with no resolution, albeit in a slightly different form, from the Tyranid codex and Acid Blood. Until GW gives us a FAQ on the subject, the rules give no way to resolve the issue except "roll a die to see who's right."

 

While FNP isn't an armor save it's still a save.

No, it isn't. Please don't make things up. There are three kinds of saves in WH40K- armor, cover, and invulnerable. Feel No Pain is not any of those nor is it a save, it's a USR that functions in a manner similar to saves.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

I would say that failing the save eliminates the armour. FnP might still keep you alive though.

 

But I can see both sides of the argument.

 

Fortunately the only squads in my army that have FnP also have storm shields so even if I lose the armour I still have the same save.

[Jorre]

I think the whole reason gw made the rule for entropic strike "any unsaved wound" is because they didn't want simple squads of 1 wound creatures running around half with their normal armour save half without. I mean who wants to be keeping track of models who have lost there armour it just slows things down and is stupid!

 

Anyway I'm sure it will be faq'd until then guess we will be forced to roll off on the matter, no matter how rediculas it is

[Vilicate]

I don't understand why people need to try and take every little possible advantage in a situation like this. It's obviously going to get a FAQ, why can't you wait and see what it does and in the meantime play it the most disadvantageous way that it is to you (the necron player)? If it works in the extremely funky way that you seem to want it to, great! You've been proven correct. Otherwise, it's good training for when it's inevitably going to to the easy way to play it.

[Morollan]

I don't understand why people need to try and take every little possible advantage in a situation like this. It's obviously going to get a FAQ, why can't you wait and see what it does and in the meantime play it the most disadvantageous way that it is to you (the necron player)? If it works in the extremely funky way that you seem to want it to, great! You've been proven correct. Otherwise, it's good training for when it's inevitably going to to the easy way to play it.

 

It's the same query as the Lemartes one and that's been going for 1.5 years with no FAQ now.

[Iron Lord]

I would go with: Feel No Pain is not a save- it's a "means of ignoring unsaved wounds"

 

A bit like Yarrick's Iron Will, except it's instantaneous and you don't need to turn the model over on its side first.

[Malatox]

I would say that it reduces the armour save but the model can still stay alive if it passes the Feel No Pain save.

After all the name "Feel no pain" implies the model takes a wound but simply doesn't feel it...

Kinda simple as well when you look at what it says in the BRB

 

Malatox

[Fortunate Son]

My thought is that if the unsaved wound is ignored then anything that results from it...

ie. entropic effects, would not happen (or would merely be ignored)

[Morollan]

My thought is that if the unsaved wound is ignored then anything that results from it...

ie. entropic effects, would not happen (or would merely be ignored)

 

But the entropic strike occurs when an unsaved wound is suffered. The unsaved wound has been suffered and the effects therefore occur. FNP merely allows the model to ignore the injury. The injury did still occur though.

[BlackKnight1239]

Okay, I honestly don't understand why there is still a discussion for this. Entropic strike triggers when an unsaved wound is take. Feel No Pain is triggered when an unsaved wound is taken. It would then stand to reason that both would happen at the same time. I don't see how this could be an issue once you look at the wording of each ability. They would survive, and have no amour save, just like an Orgyn or Tyranid Warrior model would, assuming they took a single wound

[Demoulius]

not to delve into the discussion but id just like to add this: entropic strike is a silly power that has no room in 40k to begin with <_< strike from a missle? possible explosion but otherwise armour is "intact" as in: the armour value stays the same.

same for lascannon

hell same for a turbo laser from apocalypse that causes an AUTOMATIC penetrating hit because it punches THROUGH your armour. yet your armour value stays the same...should you survive.

 

a scarabs walks by and om nom nom's your armour? OM MY GOD MY ARMOUR!!! ITS DISINTEGRATING!!! SOMEONE CALL THE TECHMARINES!!!!

 

whaaaaaat? :huh:

 

just to piss of people who use these god awfull things id favour that FnP states it IGNORES the wound so you will still have your armour save... this ability is already rediculas enough <_<

[Brother Weasel]

a scarabs walks by and om nom nom's your armour? OM MY GOD MY ARMOUR!!! ITS DISINTEGRATING!!! SOMEONE CALL THE TECHMARINES!!!!

 

whaaaaaat? :tu:

 

just to piss of people who use these god awfull things id favour that FnP states it IGNORES the wound so you will still have your armour save... this ability is already rediculas enough :huh:

 

 

That would fit well with what entropy is, if not a little exaggerated.

 

As for your statement 'just to piss of people who use these god awfull things'... it's a legal unit and rule, but to just be a dick because you don't like it... just silly.

[vahouth]

My thought is that if the unsaved wound is ignored then anything that results from it...

ie. entropic effects, would not happen (or would merely be ignored)

 

But the entropic strike occurs when an unsaved wound is suffered. The unsaved wound has been suffered and the effects therefore occur. FNP merely allows the model to ignore the injury. The injury did still occur though.

 

 

If that's the case then the entropic rule would apply to single wound models too, wouldn't you agree?

Imagine several models in the army failing their armour save and having pass their FNP -a common thing in BAs and Dark Eldar- we would also have to use markers to point the models that have lost their armour. :P

[knife&fork]

Can you say that a wound has been "suffered" when it's been ignored by FNP? After all, it had zero effect game wise.

[Morollan]

My thought is that if the unsaved wound is ignored then anything that results from it...

ie. entropic effects, would not happen (or would merely be ignored)

 

But the entropic strike occurs when an unsaved wound is suffered. The unsaved wound has been suffered and the effects therefore occur. FNP merely allows the model to ignore the injury. The injury did still occur though.

 

 

If that's the case then the entropic rule would apply to single wound models too, wouldn't you agree?

Imagine several models in the army failing their armour save and having pass their FNP -a common thing in BAs and Dark Eldar- we would also have to use markers to point the models that have lost their armour. :P

 

As far as I'm concerned, unless FAQ'd otherwise, Entropic Strike does apply to single wound models because that's what the rules tell us. It may involve some extra record keeping but it seems clear that GW is heading in that direction (Pain Tokens, Reanimation Protocol counters etc).

[Morollan]

Can you say that a wound has been "suffered" when it's been ignored by FNP? After all, it had zero effect game wise.

 

Yes. FNP works only in the event that an unsaved wound is suffered.

 

BRB, pg 75

 

"If a model with this ability suffers an unsaved wound..."

 

Codex Necrons

 

"Any model that suffers one or more unsaved Wounds from a weapon or model with this special rule immediately* loses its armour save for the remainder of the battle (effectively altering its armour save to '-')"

 

*emphasis mine