Entropic Strike and FnP

[knife&fork]

Can you say that a wound has been "suffered" when it's been ignored by FNP? After all, it had zero effect game wise.

 

Yes. FNP works only in the event that an unsaved wound is suffered.

 

BRB, pg 75

 

"If a model with this ability suffers an unsaved wound..."

 

Codex Necrons

 

"Any model that suffers one or more unsaved Wounds from a weapon or model with this special rule immediately* loses its armour save for the remainder of the battle (effectively altering its armour save to '-')"

 

*emphasis mine

 

Then I don't see why there is any controversy for either entropic strike or how lemmywinks tantrum work. :)

[Morollan]

Can you say that a wound has been "suffered" when it's been ignored by FNP? After all, it had zero effect game wise.

 

Yes. FNP works only in the event that an unsaved wound is suffered.

 

BRB, pg 75

 

"If a model with this ability suffers an unsaved wound..."

 

Codex Necrons

 

"Any model that suffers one or more unsaved Wounds from a weapon or model with this special rule immediately* loses its armour save for the remainder of the battle (effectively altering its armour save to '-')"

 

*emphasis mine

 

Then I don't see why there is any controversy for either entropic strike or how lemmywinks tantrum work. :)

 

Me neither. All seems rather straightforward to me.

[knife&fork]

Me neither. All seems rather straightforward to me.

 

Potentially a real pita to track though.

[Demoulius]

a scarabs walks by and om nom nom's your armour? OM MY GOD MY ARMOUR!!! ITS DISINTEGRATING!!! SOMEONE CALL THE TECHMARINES!!!!

 

whaaaaaat? :huh:

 

just to piss of people who use these god awfull things id favour that FnP states it IGNORES the wound so you will still have your armour save... this ability is already rediculas enough :D

 

 

That would fit well with what entropy is, if not a little exaggerated.

 

As for your statement 'just to piss of people who use these god awfull things'... it's a legal unit and rule, but to just be a dick because you don't like it... just silly.

fair enough, and my comment did come across as somewhat dickish.

 

to make a point though i know two persons who own and use scarabs and i dont got a gripe with them nor their unit. like you said its a viable unit and rule in their codex. but generally its units with rules like these who attract the local bandwagoners and power players. some rules are perhaps still abit unclear and when theres debate that highly favours an oversight and/or downright overpowered ability they will do everything at their power to take advantage of that <_< those are the only persons i would use the counter argument "FNP IGNORES the wound" against.

 

generally i only play one (a local powergamer in this case) once a year or so but it would be nice to have something against their rules lawyering :lol: "your models dont have an armour save anymore" followed with "oh i do, i made my FNP save, so your "entropic touch" is ignored"

 

and to be fair i can see both sides of the story. FNP counts the wound as ignored. if my model dident get the wound (whatever because it was ignored or because it dident happen) isent exactly clear in this case. the rule says comes into effect after an unsaved wound, which you would have to begin with if you rolled a FNP save....does FNP take precedence? do both happen at the same time? would it happen after FNP rolls? we have no clear way of knowing...

 

when it isent 100% clear which instance happens i refuse to take the worst case scenario in favour of the new codex...SPECIALY with the wishfull thinking that people put in little blurps like these in new codexi...

 

Generally with unclear things like this we roll a D6 at my locals store in such cases. on a 1-3 it happens like person A thinks it works and in 4-6 it works like person B thinks it works.

 

like i said though, i have a personal gripe with the rule as i think it (both tabletop and the supposed fluff) are just stupid... which is why i had the somewhat bitter response up there...

[AbusePuppy]

As far as I'm concerned, unless FAQ'd otherwise, Entropic Strike does apply to single wound models because that's what the rules tell us. It may involve some extra record keeping but it seems clear that GW is heading in that direction (Pain Tokens, Reanimation Protocol counters etc).

 

That is what one interpretation of the rules tells us. Stating your view of s discussion as though it were ironclad fact is rather poor courtesy.

 

You can say that, because you failed a save, Entropic "triggers" and thus erases the models' armor, or you can say that because you ignore the wound with FNP, it never happened and Entropic has no effect. The rules as they stand do not offer any resolution to this dilemma- it is entirely up to the players and/or TO to resolve it until such time as a FAQ is issued.

[BOBMAKENZIE]

"Any model that suffers one or more unsaved wounds.."

 

"If the result is lower than the Sv Value, the armour fails to protect its wearer and the model suffers a wound."

 

"...the injury is ignored...

Seems to be the order of operations is as such:

 

-> Roll to hit

-> Roll to wound

-> Roll your saves

-> Failed armour save models suffer a wound.

-> Feel No Pain & Entropic Strike both try to activate

 

 

The questions are as follows:

 

Does FNP or Entropic strike activate first?

Does ignoring an injury outright Negate the Unsaved wound or just stop it from being removed from the profile?

 

 

Im inclined to believe that the Entropic Strike tears through the armour. But its an interesting arguement.

[Brother Weasel]

fair enough, and my comment did come across as somewhat dickish.

 

to make a point though i know two persons who own and use scarabs and i dont got a gripe with them nor their unit. like you said its a viable unit and rule in their codex. but generally its units with rules like these who attract the local bandwagoners and power players. some rules are perhaps still abit unclear and when theres debate that highly favours an oversight and/or downright overpowered ability they will do everything at their power to take advantage of that :D those are the only persons i would use the counter argument "FNP IGNORES the wound" against.

 

generally i only play one (a local powergamer in this case) once a year or so but it would be nice to have something against their rules lawyering <_< "your models dont have an armour save anymore" followed with "oh i do, i made my FNP save, so your "entropic touch" is ignored"

 

and to be fair i can see both sides of the story. FNP counts the wound as ignored. if my model dident get the wound (whatever because it was ignored or because it dident happen) isent exactly clear in this case. the rule says comes into effect after an unsaved wound, which you would have to begin with if you rolled a FNP save....does FNP take precedence? do both happen at the same time? would it happen after FNP rolls? we have no clear way of knowing...

 

when it isent 100% clear which instance happens i refuse to take the worst case scenario in favour of the new codex...SPECIALY with the wishfull thinking that people put in little blurps like these in new codexi...

 

Generally with unclear things like this we roll a D6 at my locals store in such cases. on a 1-3 it happens like person A thinks it works and in 4-6 it works like person B thinks it works.

 

like i said though, i have a personal gripe with the rule as i think it (both tabletop and the supposed fluff) are just stupid... which is why i had the somewhat bitter response up there...

 

I hear yea, I generally just let people enterpit rules to their advantage, unless it's blatantly wrong, but i also know my reasons for playing differ for the most part from other gamers in the store:) I also play both armies:)

[BlackKnight1239]

Just want to point out that, even if you took a wound and saved it with Feel No Pain, you still have taken an UNSAVED wound, because that is required to activate Feel No Pain. Regardless whether you died from it or not, it's an unsaved wound.

 

Feel No Pain and Etropic Strike happen at the same time, and do not conflict each other.

[Demoulius]

Just want to point out that, even if you took a wound and saved it with Feel No Pain, you still have taken an UNSAVED wound, because that is required to activate Feel No Pain. Regardless whether you died from it or not, it's an unsaved wound.

 

Feel No Pain and Etropic Strike happen at the same time, and do not conflict each other.

actually thats not how it works at all (for debates sake) FNP states it IGNORES the wound. So no, you wouldnt have an unsaved wound because FNP IGNORES it....thats what the whole debate is about...

 

no matter how i look at it though this seems to be an issue exclusivly effecting models with FNP and/or multiple wounds. single wound models who fail their save and dont have FNP are dead so theyre not effected by it ;)

 

i think its a ploy of GW to introduce something to counter FNP or somesuch. may sound paranoid but FNP is starting to getting into more and more codexi. chaos can have it, blood angels can have it, tyranids can have it, guard can have it (via medi-packs if im not mistaken), DE can have it (via pain tokens or so im told, dont got the DE codex...) etc etc. its a big trend and perhaps they wanted something to down it down or something?

 

or they just had a brain fart and decided to give scarabs one of the most game breaking rules they could think off :lol: theyre actually very dangerous now compared to the mild "meh" i would otherwise give if they charged me...

 

theyre also very dangerous to monstrous creatures and walkers. the former gets swarmed by attacks and might be able to kill them all, and you only need to cause 1 wound to be able to tear off a models complete armour....bye bye mr carnifex's armour :D same goes for walkers. ah, you have an ancient dreadnought? well not anymore! "swarm of locu.....scarabs swarms a dreadnought leaving only the frail barely alive corpse inside"

 

seriously scarabs doing more damage to armour them lascannons? "zuh?" :huh:

[BlackKnight1239]

Just want to point out that, even if you took a wound and saved it with Feel No Pain, you still have taken an UNSAVED wound, because that is required to activate Feel No Pain. Regardless whether you died from it or not, it's an unsaved wound.

 

Feel No Pain and Etropic Strike happen at the same time, and do not conflict each other.

actually thats not how it works at all (for debates sake) FNP states it IGNORES the wound. So no, you wouldnt have an unsaved wound because FNP IGNORES it....thats what the whole debate is about...

 

no matter how i look at it though this seems to be an issue exclusivly effecting models with FNP and/or multiple wounds. single wound models who fail their save and dont have FNP are dead so theyre not effected by it :lol:

 

 

No. Stop. Read Feel No Pain. Seriously. Read it.

 

If a model with this ability suffer an unsaved wound, roll a dice. On a 1, 2, or 3 , take the wound as normal (removing the model if it loses it's final wound).

 

Emphasis mine. For Feel No Pain to trigger you MUST TAKE AN UNSAVED WOUND. It there, right in the rules. There isn't anyway to interperate it. There just isn't, without breaking the rules.

[Demoulius]

Just want to point out that, even if you took a wound and saved it with Feel No Pain, you still have taken an UNSAVED wound, because that is required to activate Feel No Pain. Regardless whether you died from it or not, it's an unsaved wound.

 

Feel No Pain and Etropic Strike happen at the same time, and do not conflict each other.

actually thats not how it works at all (for debates sake) FNP states it IGNORES the wound. So no, you wouldnt have an unsaved wound because FNP IGNORES it....thats what the whole debate is about...

 

no matter how i look at it though this seems to be an issue exclusivly effecting models with FNP and/or multiple wounds. single wound models who fail their save and dont have FNP are dead so theyre not effected by it :lol:

 

 

No. Stop. Read Feel No Pain. Seriously. Read it.

 

If a model with this ability suffer an unsaved wound, roll a dice. On a 1, 2, or 3 , take the wound as normal (removing the model if it loses it's final wound).

 

Emphasis mine. For Feel No Pain to trigger you MUST TAKE AN UNSAVED WOUND. It there, right in the rules. There isn't anyway to interperate it. There just isn't, without breaking the rules.

sure *grabs rulebook*

 

"On a 4, 5 or 6, the injury is IGNORED"

 

no rules broken. you ignore the wound so it doesent happen. you dont get combat res (or however you call it in 40K :P) for those wounds either to just compare it to something else...

[BlackKnight1239]

Just want to point out that, even if you took a wound and saved it with Feel No Pain, you still have taken an UNSAVED wound, because that is required to activate Feel No Pain. Regardless whether you died from it or not, it's an unsaved wound.

 

Feel No Pain and Etropic Strike happen at the same time, and do not conflict each other.

actually thats not how it works at all (for debates sake) FNP states it IGNORES the wound. So no, you wouldnt have an unsaved wound because FNP IGNORES it....thats what the whole debate is about...

 

no matter how i look at it though this seems to be an issue exclusivly effecting models with FNP and/or multiple wounds. single wound models who fail their save and dont have FNP are dead so theyre not effected by it :lol:

 

 

No. Stop. Read Feel No Pain. Seriously. Read it.

 

If a model with this ability suffer an unsaved wound, roll a dice. On a 1, 2, or 3 , take the wound as normal (removing the model if it loses it's final wound).

 

Emphasis mine. For Feel No Pain to trigger you MUST TAKE AN UNSAVED WOUND. It there, right in the rules. There isn't anyway to interperate it. There just isn't, without breaking the rules.

sure *grabs rulebook*

 

"On a 4, 5 or 6, the injury is IGNORED"

 

no rules broken. you ignore the wound so it doesent happen. you dont get combat res (or however you call it in 40K :P) for those wounds either to just compare it to something else...

 

No, you're not understanding. Just think about it. Take it sentence by sentence. Feel No Pain happens like this.

 

>Attacks/Shooting attacks are made

>Wounds are dealt

>Armour Saves are taken

>Saves are passed/failed. Models are dealt unsaved wounds.

>Feel No Pain happens.

 

Feel No Pain cannot happen unless an Unsaved wound was taken. It doesn't matter if it is ignored after that fact. An unsaved wound still happened, and that's all Entropic strike is checking for. Not if they TOOK a wound. Not if a wound resolved. But if an unsaved wound happened. Which it did, because Feel No Pain happened.

[Leonaides]

Yes you ignore the wound. But Entropic Strike has an effect in addition to the wound. It also affects the targets armour. FNP doesnt say you ignore the wound and any other effects of the hit - it says you ignore the wound.

 

As for it only affecting multi-wound models or those with FNP - yes, those are the ones that are mainly affected by this rule. Which means they were probably really thinking of all those CC-monster heroes that would otherwise munch theri way through the entire Necron army - is it really such a game-breaker to give them a unit that might make you have to think about what you've doing other than just "Raaaaa -CHARGE!!!!!!ZOMGPWNED!!!"

 

Seriously - its a swarm, hit them with a few krak missiles or similar and then a dreadnought who can ID them and you should have a problem...

[Demoulius]

Just want to point out that, even if you took a wound and saved it with Feel No Pain, you still have taken an UNSAVED wound, because that is required to activate Feel No Pain. Regardless whether you died from it or not, it's an unsaved wound.

 

Feel No Pain and Etropic Strike happen at the same time, and do not conflict each other.

actually thats not how it works at all (for debates sake) FNP states it IGNORES the wound. So no, you wouldnt have an unsaved wound because FNP IGNORES it....thats what the whole debate is about...

 

no matter how i look at it though this seems to be an issue exclusivly effecting models with FNP and/or multiple wounds. single wound models who fail their save and dont have FNP are dead so theyre not effected by it :lol:

 

 

No. Stop. Read Feel No Pain. Seriously. Read it.

 

If a model with this ability suffer an unsaved wound, roll a dice. On a 1, 2, or 3 , take the wound as normal (removing the model if it loses it's final wound).

 

Emphasis mine. For Feel No Pain to trigger you MUST TAKE AN UNSAVED WOUND. It there, right in the rules. There isn't anyway to interperate it. There just isn't, without breaking the rules.

sure *grabs rulebook*

 

"On a 4, 5 or 6, the injury is IGNORED"

 

no rules broken. you ignore the wound so it doesent happen. you dont get combat res (or however you call it in 40K :D) for those wounds either to just compare it to something else...

 

No, you're not understanding. Just think about it. Take it sentence by sentence. Feel No Pain happens like this.

 

>Attacks/Shooting attacks are made

>Wounds are dealt

>Armour Saves are taken

>Saves are passed/failed. Models are dealt unsaved wounds.

>Feel No Pain happens.

 

Feel No Pain cannot happen unless an Unsaved wound was taken. It doesn't matter if it is ignored after that fact. An unsaved wound still happened, and that's all Entropic strike is checking for. Not if they TOOK a wound. Not if a wound resolved. But if an unsaved wound happened. Which it did, because Feel No Pain happened.

m8 i understood your point. do you understand mine though? the point we brought up several times is this: does FNP ignoring the wound mean your ability triggers? if yes, you have a 50/50 chance to remove a models armour. if no then you dont get the roll. whats ALSO a point is what order do the abilities happen in? this is important because, again if FNP saves the wound there wouldnt be an unsaved wound to trigger the ability. if they happen at the same time. no reason to imply that any one of them goes first but because FNP makes you ignore the wound its important...

 

consider this: would you also roll for the ability before the model rolls its FNP?

 

the most fair thing to do would be to make both abilities trigger at the same time akin to models with the same initiative. but since im argueing for argueing's sake here apprently :P

 

id say discuss it with your opponent BEFORE a game. save both of you a possible headache B)

[Brother Weasel]

id say discuss it with your opponent BEFORE a game. save both of you a possible headache :lol:

 

exactly... if you see it diffrent, explain what you see,if they still argue, play their way and go about your day

[BlackKnight1239]

Just want to point out that, even if you took a wound and saved it with Feel No Pain, you still have taken an UNSAVED wound, because that is required to activate Feel No Pain. Regardless whether you died from it or not, it's an unsaved wound.

 

Feel No Pain and Etropic Strike happen at the same time, and do not conflict each other.

actually thats not how it works at all (for debates sake) FNP states it IGNORES the wound. So no, you wouldnt have an unsaved wound because FNP IGNORES it....thats what the whole debate is about...

 

no matter how i look at it though this seems to be an issue exclusivly effecting models with FNP and/or multiple wounds. single wound models who fail their save and dont have FNP are dead so theyre not effected by it :lol:

 

 

No. Stop. Read Feel No Pain. Seriously. Read it.

 

If a model with this ability suffer an unsaved wound, roll a dice. On a 1, 2, or 3 , take the wound as normal (removing the model if it loses it's final wound).

 

Emphasis mine. For Feel No Pain to trigger you MUST TAKE AN UNSAVED WOUND. It there, right in the rules. There isn't anyway to interperate it. There just isn't, without breaking the rules.

sure *grabs rulebook*

 

"On a 4, 5 or 6, the injury is IGNORED"

 

no rules broken. you ignore the wound so it doesent happen. you dont get combat res (or however you call it in 40K :D) for those wounds either to just compare it to something else...

 

No, you're not understanding. Just think about it. Take it sentence by sentence. Feel No Pain happens like this.

 

>Attacks/Shooting attacks are made

>Wounds are dealt

>Armour Saves are taken

>Saves are passed/failed. Models are dealt unsaved wounds.

>Feel No Pain happens.

 

Feel No Pain cannot happen unless an Unsaved wound was taken. It doesn't matter if it is ignored after that fact. An unsaved wound still happened, and that's all Entropic strike is checking for. Not if they TOOK a wound. Not if a wound resolved. But if an unsaved wound happened. Which it did, because Feel No Pain happened.

m8 i understood your point. do you understand mine though? the point we brought up several times is this: does FNP ignoring the wound mean your ability triggers? if yes, you have a 50/50 chance to remove a models armour. if no then you dont get the roll. whats ALSO a point is what order do the abilities happen in? this is important because, again if FNP saves the wound there wouldnt be an unsaved wound to trigger the ability. if they happen at the same time. no reason to imply that any one of them goes first but because FNP makes you ignore the wound its important...

 

consider this: would you also roll for the ability before the model rolls its FNP?

 

the most fair thing to do would be to make both abilities trigger at the same time akin to models with the same initiative. but since im argueing for argueing's sake here apprently :P

 

id say discuss it with your opponent BEFORE a game. save both of you a possible headache B)

 

Yes, because it doesn't matter if the wound is ignored after the fact. There still was an unsaved wound, that IS key. They happen both at the same time because they are triggered by the same thing.

[Demoulius]

show me a line in the rulebooks that downright states that and il believe you :P

 

honestly ive shown you my vieuws and while i can see yours, i just dont agree with them.

 

il just agree to disagree with you sir! :lol:

[BlackKnight1239]

show me a line in the rulebooks that downright states that and il believe you :P

 

honestly ive shown you my vieuws and while i can see yours, i just dont agree with them.

 

il just agree to disagree with you sir! :lol:

 

Man, I really hope I don't meet anyone claiming to know rules. Seriously. It says in Feel No Pain. It says in Entropic Strike. There is no problem here, save for your random perception that believes that an unsaved wound didn't happen if it's ignore (which means it HAD to happen, btw). For Feel No Pain to happen, there must be an unsaved wound. If there is an unsaved wound, Entropic Strike happens. This is how it works. Why? Because that's how it's stated in the rules. Feel No Pain ignores the wound, it does remove it from existance.

[BOBMAKENZIE]

Correct me if I am wrong but I identified the timing as being a key issue in my post... I believe that I being as awesome as I am have just ended this debat. (aww yeah) ^_^

 

So to reiterate.

 

 

Timing which goes off first?

 

Does Ignoring an injury negate the presence of the wound entirely or only on a profile bases?

[BlackKnight1239]

The timing doesn't matter because it doesn't matter if the unsaved wound was ignore after it was dealt. What matters is that there was an unsaved wound. For Feel No Pain happens because an unsaved wound has happened. It still happened after Feel No Pain has resolved. Ignoring something (by definition of the word ignore) doesn't erase it from existance.

[Brother Weasel]

show me a line in the rulebooks that downright states that and il believe you :)

 

honestly ive shown you my vieuws and while i can see yours, i just dont agree with them.

 

il just agree to disagree with you sir! ^_^

 

Man, I really hope I don't meet anyone claiming to know rules. Seriously. It says in Feel No Pain. It says in Entropic Strike. There is no problem here, save for your random perception that believes that an unsaved wound didn't happen if it's ignore (which means it HAD to happen, btw). For Feel No Pain to happen, there must be an unsaved wound. If there is an unsaved wound, Entropic Strike happens. This is how it works. Why? Because that's how it's stated in the rules. Feel No Pain ignores the wound, it does remove it from existance.

 

actually Demoulius' stance is perfectly logical (not how i personally see it, but i see where it comes from).

 

his perception is that the unsaved wound is negated by the fnp, as up until entropic (well lemmy), it never really mattered weather the wound was ignored, or the save. If i change it around a little, and youtake an unsaved wound, does that count to combat resolution, as it's unsaved? (of course not...) but the injury is ignored, not the wound...

 

of course if i never read this topic i never would have questioned and just rolled entropic on mu lti wound guys 9as single wounders would be dead and i would have assumed fnp saved them)

[BlackKnight1239]

Combat resolution has a clause that allows those wounds to be uncounted for resolution.

[Brother Weasel]

Combat resolution has a clause that allows those wounds to be uncounted for resolution.

 

i would have to find my rulebook to argue it... my point wasn't really about that, it was just being able to see where Demoulius' view point comes from.

[BlackKnight1239]

Combat resolution has a clause that allows those wounds to be uncounted for resolution.

 

i would have to find my rulebook to argue it... my point wasn't really about that, it was just being able to see where Demoulius' view point comes from.

 

And I'm just saying his point of view doesn't make any sense.

[Brother Weasel]

Combat resolution has a clause that allows those wounds to be uncounted for resolution.

 

i would have to find my rulebook to argue it... my point wasn't really about that, it was just being able to see where Demoulius' view point comes from.

 

And I'm just saying his point of view doesn't make any sense.

 

again, while I don't agree with this interpretation... I can see what is being said.

 

while you say that the fact that fnp and entropic happen because there is an unsaved wound, others would argue that FNP ignores the unsaved wound, thus nullifying the unsaved wound... again, i disagree, but it does make sense.