Kerrai Posted November 14, 2011 Share Posted November 14, 2011 Hi there Is there any fluff talking about The Legions not helping each other (Emperor's Children, Thousand Sons, World Eaters, Death Guard)? Or do they work similar in the ways as the loyal marines, as they can help out if they feel like? What would the different tag teams be? Slaanesh and Tzeencht? I read that Tzeencht and Nurgle dislike each other quite a lot, but would they see past that for the sake of the battle they were to endure? And after it was done then turn on each other. If three were to team up, who would be left out.. and why? And even tho the Legions are followers of one of the four mayor chaos entities, do they in between selves wage war and such things just because their God thinks so? Or do they take it cool and lives life as their Primarch once said? //Kerrai Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241970-the-legions-would-they-team-up/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eerie Posted November 14, 2011 Share Posted November 14, 2011 All the Chaos legions fight each other as much as they fight the loyalists. There is no love between them. Occasionally they do team up, e.g. during the Black Crusades, but that is more like an uneasy pact where still everybody fights for his own ends, just with a common goal, rather than actually becoming all close friends and allies. A Khorne Berserker kills a Plague Marine, a Noise Marine or a Thousand Son Sorcerer with as much passion as he kills an Ultramarine. There's no difference. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241970-the-legions-would-they-team-up/#findComment-2924067 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDarkApostle Posted November 14, 2011 Share Posted November 14, 2011 Yes, all Legions team up at times, most notably during the Abbadons Black Crusades. At other times other Champions can rise and through their own power and will are able to weld the Legions together into a Black Crusade of their own. Regarding the infighting we know that Fabius Bile took Horus body and tried to clone the Warmaster and Horus and the Black Legion subsequently raided the Emperor's Children base and destroyed the original body as well as the clones. We can assume that Abbadon was not too amused by that and is distrusting ever since. What we also know is that the Emperor's Children were the first to start raiding the other Legions for slaves and resources and from that started the Legion wars in the Eye of Terror. I suppose we can all assume that the rest of the Legions were not too happy about that. Other than that we know that regarding the Gods chosen Daemon Hosts they will at times fight eachother as the Gods fight for dominance, and we also know that sometimes these fight will have all manner of weird rituals and rules before they are fought. (Top weird rules I've read of include battles where blood may NOT be spilled as well as battles where you are not allowed to kill either. At other times it's no weapons or no armor or no magic or no particular color or style of fighting.) We also know that at times these Hosts will fight each-other even though they are Hosts of the same Gods. These events have been described as the God in question trying to decide on what course of action to take with each Hosts representing different courses and the winning Host being the course taken. As for the mortal Hosts and Warbands we know that they at times fight among not only the Warbands following the same God, but also a Warband will at times fight within itself to ascertain the own warriors place in the hierarchy, and for their own dominance and prestige. And as a mirror different Warbands will fight each-other, at times for resources, at times for the prestige or being better, at a third time to prove themselves to their God in order to receive greater honor and favor. Consequently warbands of opposing Gods will also fight each-other in order to not only make their own God more dominant in between the Four, but also because the destruction of a rival God's warband will earn them greater glory and favor from their own God. Finally it is not unknown for several of the Gods to band together in other to "gang up" on a fourth when one of them gains too much power and dominance over the rest of them. As in the event where Khorne, Slaanesh and Nurgle put aside their differences and ganged up on Tzeentch. I think I've managed to get it all now and I hope that I managed to somewhat answer most of the questions satisfyingly. As for sources the things I've said here comes mainly from the Liber Chaotica (great read for those who can get a hold of it) and the various Chaos Codecii (both Marines, fantasy Hordes and Warriors as well as Daemons) TDA Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241970-the-legions-would-they-team-up/#findComment-2924079 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 Other than that we know that regarding the Gods chosen Daemon Hosts they will at times fight eachother as the Gods fight for dominance, and we also know that sometimes these fight will have all manner of weird rituals and rules before they are fought. (Top weird rules I've read of include battles where blood may NOT be spilled as well as battles where you are not allowed to kill either. At other times it's no weapons or no armor or no magic or no particular color or style of fighting.) TDA is this little tidbit from the Liber Chaotica too? :) I must have that book! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241970-the-legions-would-they-team-up/#findComment-2924165 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watch Commander Danek Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 Don't think the deamon world rules were reprinted in the Liber Chaotica. They were in the Realm of Chaos books. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241970-the-legions-would-they-team-up/#findComment-2924228 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The.Latros.Sacrum Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 Yeah basically what everyone else has said. The Chaos Legions will sometimes form uneasy alliances for Black Crusades or other grand scale raids, but even then after the Crusade/raids are finished, the Legions are then likely to turn their weapons upon each other. The.Latros.Sacrum Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241970-the-legions-would-they-team-up/#findComment-2924276 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sviar Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 They can also be hired by other warbands like IW hired Berzerkers in Storm of iron (awesome book). Or a whole company can change owner when one champion beats the other, like Honsou does in The skull harvest. If you look in our CSM codex we can see EC and KB in BL colour. I am not sure if it was due to change of gods or changed allegiance (it´s been a while since I read the fluff). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241970-the-legions-would-they-team-up/#findComment-2924339 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eerie Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 Every warlord who can afford it can hire other groups of Chaos Marines into his services. Generally, warbands fight each other for power and influence. The Eye of Terror, the Maelstrom etc. where the CSM hide are somewhat galaxies within the galaxy. They contain entire systems that you can only reach when you delve deep into warp-tainted territory (and thus will never be reached by Imperialists). And the warbands fight over control for these planets , as well as planets in the real space and generally for their spheres of influence. Not out of boredom or generic villainy, but for the very pragmatic goal of survival. You need workers/slaves, resources etc. to sustain your operations. If you don't have enough you need to take them. And fighting another warband is often easier than taking on the Imperium. The Imperium may come back with a mighty vengeance when you try to steal a system from them, another Chaos warband against that can be entirely defeated and wont pose a threat anymore in future. Also what others said, you want to look good in the eyes of your god(s), most warlords are ultimately striving for daemonhood and you wont achieve that if you just sit around idly. If a warband was crippled and can't stand its ground alone anymore it may be forced to join another warband (however maybe with the ultimate goal of taking over that warband in the end), or sell your services to the highest bidder as mercenaries. Two or more mighty warlords may unite their forces for a common goal, but they wont do it because they feel comradship and brotherhood towards each other (as loyalists may do), they each do it to achieve their own respective goals. So, the vague answer is that every Chaos faction can team up with every other Chaos faction for a myriad different reasons but they may evenly all jump each others throats for a myriad reasons. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241970-the-legions-would-they-team-up/#findComment-2924387 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDarkApostle Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 Other than that we know that regarding the Gods chosen Daemon Hosts they will at times fight eachother as the Gods fight for dominance, and we also know that sometimes these fight will have all manner of weird rituals and rules before they are fought. (Top weird rules I've read of include battles where blood may NOT be spilled as well as battles where you are not allowed to kill either. At other times it's no weapons or no armor or no magic or no particular color or style of fighting.) TDA is this little tidbit from the Liber Chaotica too? :) I must have that book! It is, IIRC it's from the Book of Slaanesh. TDA Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241970-the-legions-would-they-team-up/#findComment-2924502 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDarkApostle Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 And indeed it was, it's from the "The Daemonic Legions" section of the Book of Slaanesh. :) TDA Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241970-the-legions-would-they-team-up/#findComment-2924506 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The.Latros.Sacrum Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 Just to add, you wanted to know who would team with who. Well its easier to say who wouldnt team with who. Nurgle and Tzeentch would never team up, the huge rivalry would just lead to an all out war! Same can be said for followers of Khorne and Slaanesh! The Black Legion seem the most easy going in as much as they would form alliances with any warband/legion for a price. The Word Bearers are fussy blighters, they dispise all warbands/legions that are solely dedicated to a single Chaos God and view them as narrow minded fools! The.Latros.Sacrum Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241970-the-legions-would-they-team-up/#findComment-2924641 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Lord Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 I don't know- Codex: Chaos Daemons has a short story (page 19) with daemons of all four powers teamed up. If Daemons can do it, why not marines? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241970-the-legions-would-they-team-up/#findComment-2924654 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eerie Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 I also wouldn't approve such a definite and exclusive statement. Under the right circumstances everything is possible. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241970-the-legions-would-they-team-up/#findComment-2924678 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snejk Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 I don't know- Codex: Chaos Daemons has a short story (page 19) with daemons of all four powers teamed up. If Daemons can do it, why not marines? Daemons can do it because someone wrote a codex saying they can. Probably to get balanced armies. I remember reading somewhere back in the day that there was a deep hatred and rivalry between the different Chaos Gods. Khorne and Tzeentch are enemies, for obvious reasons Magic vs Brute force. Khorne and Slaanesh are rivals. Slaanesh and Nurgle are the very oposits etc etc. So from what I remember Khorne and Nurgle could form alliances and Slaanesh and Tzeentch could form alliances. This is also taken in concideration in "Black Crusade" RPG, where diffrent skills and abilities cost more if you are alligned with one god and want to buy a skill that represents another God. So someone alligned with Tzeentch would pay more XP for skills/abilities that are specific to Khorne for an example. I have mixed feelings about the "Lets all be chums and have a big all invited chaos party". Game wise it'sok I think being able to get a balanced army. Fluff wise i think it sucks a**. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241970-the-legions-would-they-team-up/#findComment-2924681 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Lord Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 Khorne hates Tzeentch (not as much as Slaanesh)- but team ups between their daemons have happened in the fluff- long before Codex Daemons came out. The Eye of Terror novel back in 1999-odd, by Barrington J. Bayley (admittedly not a very good novel). In the same way- in Black Crusade there's no penalty for having both a Khornate and a Slaaneshi in the same party (though one might expect some tension). In Warhammer Fantasy it's taken even further- you could have a Slaaneshi champion wearing a Collar of Khorne (or some similar odd combination). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241970-the-legions-would-they-team-up/#findComment-2924690 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The.Latros.Sacrum Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 Khorne hates Tzeentch (not as much as Slaanesh)- but team ups between their daemons have happened in the fluff- long before Codex Daemons came out. The Eye of Terror novel back in 1999-odd, by Barrington J. Bayley (admittedly not a very good novel). In the same way- in Black Crusade there's no penalty for having both a Khornate and a Slaaneshi in the same party (though one might expect some tension). In Warhammer Fantasy it's taken even further- you could have a Slaaneshi champion wearing a Collar of Khorne (or some similar odd combination). Using Slaanesh and Khorne as example rival Legions: I agree that in crusades/raids/big battles they will be fighting on the same side but not necessarily fighting together on the same battlefield, it wouldnt really happen as they will be fighting each other more than the enemy! Again I understand that it has been documented that rival god Daemons may have fought on the same side but I think that has more to do with army balance. In 'reality' I could never see them working together, rivalry and ignorant pride would not allow rival God armies to fight on the same battlefield together. But this is all just my personal opinion :D The.Latros.Sacrum Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241970-the-legions-would-they-team-up/#findComment-2924697 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snejk Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 In Warhammer Fantasy it's taken even further- you could have a Slaaneshi champion wearing a Collar of Khorne (or some similar odd combination). Just as A Tzeentchian Sorcerer could be equipped with a collar of Khorne and a Glaive of Putrefaction. Which would be more than reason enough for his followersa to skin him alive. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241970-the-legions-would-they-team-up/#findComment-2924715 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eerie Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 I think everybody in the Chaos kitchen is cooking his own soup, daemons and marines alike, and as long as you get what you want, I see nothing beyond consideration. Loyalists are driven by ideology, which forbids certain acts (like aligning with a hated enemy). Chaos marines have shaken off and left behind such pitty principles. They are driven by egoistic goals, and ultimately that means they know neither morale nor principles. They may have commited themselves to a certain god or to Chaos glory in general. But that does not equate with a strict ideology in the Imperial sense which really forbids you to do certain things. Exception may be the Word Bearers, who have retained (some say invented) the fanatic ideology that drives the Imperialists, they just reversed their loyalties. For example a Tzeentchian sorcerer in need of manpower may come forward to a Plague Marine warlord and offer him an alliance. Maybe something like "I have a pact with Nurgle Daemon XYZ, and he will grant you daemonhood if you follow me in this or that operation I am planning." Would a Nurgle Daemon bargain with a servant of his nemesis? I don't know, but if everyone's happy with the end result, why not? There's enough time to stab their backses later <_< Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241970-the-legions-would-they-team-up/#findComment-2924753 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 The Daemon Codex has several examples of daemons from rival gods fighting alongside one another. They're not necessarily happy about it but they do it. I think their marine counterparts would also fight alongside each other (although probably not happily). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241970-the-legions-would-they-team-up/#findComment-2924917 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reyner Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 They can also be hired by other warbands like IW hired Berzerkers in Storm of iron (awesome book). Or a whole company can change owner when one champion beats the other, like Honsou does in The skull harvest. If you look in our CSM codex we can see EC and KB in BL colour. I am not sure if it was due to change of gods or changed allegiance (it´s been a while since I read the fluff). Weren't the Beserkers just the nutters from Kruegers Company? I agree though it is an awesome book and one of my favourites :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241970-the-legions-would-they-team-up/#findComment-2925017 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 In Warhammer Fantasy it's taken even further- you could have a Slaaneshi champion wearing a Collar of Khorne (or some similar odd combination). Just as A Tzeentchian Sorcerer could be equipped with a collar of Khorne and a Glaive of Putrefaction. Which would be more than reason enough for his followersa to skin him alive. Because it's not like the Warhammer magic items are just examples for the effect in question, and that you're actively encouraged to rename the magic items for the purpose of background... In other words, are you seriously trying to tell me that Tzeentch could never, ever, ever gift his Champions with a magic item, that may or may not be collar-like, that helps protect them from harmful magic? Yes, the item is called the Collar of Khorne in the book, but what's stopping you from calling it the Aegis of Tzeentch, using the same rules? After all, the rulebook itself states that the name and description listed of the item shouldn't be taken is immutable. The example they give is that an Ogre Blade could just as easily be an Ogre Axe. So, Collar of Khorne is now the Aegis of Tzeentch for you. Problem solved, quit the damn whining. In response to the actual OP... *sigh*... this is exactly what's wrong with the current Chaos books. As others have said, Nurgle and Tzeentch almost never ever team up, as with Khorne and Slaanesh (and if they do, you can guarantee they'll be actively trying to sabotage each other, while holding to the letter of the agreement). Khorne dislikes Tzeentch, sure, but nowhere near as much as he loathes Slaanesh, while Tzeentch just doesn't give that much of a damn about Khornes hatred of him. Slaanesh is pretty uncaring as well towards both Nurgle and Tzeentch (despite what people may claim to have read, the only actual statement in the fluff about Slaanesh's attitude towards the other two is that they are "subject to Slaanesh's usual neutral attitude). They each have an utter rival, who they will try to defeat at every single opportunity they get, and the other two are simply held in contempt. After all, they're all rivals competing for the same power. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241970-the-legions-would-they-team-up/#findComment-2925085 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dammeron Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 Utter speculation on my part, of course, but despite their occassional spats, I've always imagined Slaanesh and Nurgle getting on reasonable well: The followers of Nurgle obviously take a great deal of perverse pleasure in their conditions, enjoying the sensations of sickness, of infection, infestation and decay. Similarly, I imagine the followers of Slaanesh rather enjoy the very peculiar array of sensations Nurgle and his followers can provide; the extremes of state and condition are exactly what Slaaneshi creatures exist for. There's also a rather humorous detail in the second ed codex description of Noise Marines, in which the "psychic chatter" they emenate is rather pleasurable to Nurgle daemons, who often hum along to the discord :rolleyes: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241970-the-legions-would-they-team-up/#findComment-2925113 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 I think part of the fun and frustration of Chaos is that its entirely self contradictory. Half of the time the rules that exist only exist to be bent or broken. One could argue almost anything is possible with the right explanation. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241970-the-legions-would-they-team-up/#findComment-2925181 Share on other sites More sharing options...
alphariusomegon20 Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 There is one exception of two undivided Legions that will NOT work together under ANY circumstances, and it's because they hate each other THAT much. Yeah you might find them in the same area of operation, but they'll come to blows before it's over. Word Bearers and Alpha Legion. The WB see AL as unbeliever scum, and AL sees WB as pompous self righteous asses. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241970-the-legions-would-they-team-up/#findComment-2925991 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kerrai Posted November 17, 2011 Author Share Posted November 17, 2011 I'd like to thank you all for all the input, it gave me something to think about. cheers //Kerrai Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/241970-the-legions-would-they-team-up/#findComment-2926054 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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