Army Expansion Direction

[spartan249]

Well, I'm at a crossroads in terms of how I can go about expanding my collection, and I'm expanding my Iron Hands force now and doing GKs later.

 

The issue is this. The 3 speeders I have have lately not been satisfactory enough for me, so I'm looking at two options for my army. I can either add the number of speeders I have, or I can get a biker squad and use that as my disruption/super mobile fire support unit in lieu of the speeders.

 

The way I see it:

Speeders: Have the advantage of great range and superior firepower when compared to bikers. They lose out on durability due to their status as a vehicle and completely lose in terms of disruption via close combat. Slightly more mobile (Don't have to worry about terrain).

 

Bikers: Trades heavy firepower for stronger anti-personnel medium range firepower. They gain quite a bit in terms of durability, especially at range, as they are not as easily disrupted as speeders. Depending on the codex, they can either provide an annoying distraction in close combat or they can strike fear into dismounted enemy infantry. Slightly less mobile (terrain becomes a factor, especially during the later phases of objective games).

 

As my list is right now, I'm packing quite a bit of anti-armor long range firepower, so the question is either I go with the extra supplemental AA firepower and forgo AI for the most part, or I diversify a bit and include bikers to help handle dismounted infantry.

 

For the sake of context, I'll disclose my list without the fast attack element.

 

2000 pts "Iron Legion"

HQ

Bjorn: TLLC - 290 pts

Troops

Grey Hunters: 10 marines, 2 Pguns, Pweapon - 175 pts

Grey Hunters: 10 marines, 2 Pguns, Pweapon - 175 pts

Elites

Dread: TLLC - 135 pts

Dread: TLLC - 135 pts

Dread: TLLC - 135 pts

Heavy Support

LR: 250 pts

LR: 250 pts

Vindicator: Dblade - 120 pts

[DarkGuard]

So 335pts left right? Well looking at your force you have plenty of long-range anti-tank firepower, with no less than 8 TL-LCs! However, it doesn't seem fast, I'd imagine you either stay still with those Raiders and Dreads and take out tanks, or move 6" with each to maximise firepower, unleashing the Grey Hunters on disembarked units when close enough?

 

So I think you'd benefit from either a unit that can take out infantry easily, or some faster mobility designed to harry the enemy and herd them into your fire lanes. The Vindicator is nice but not massively impressive anti-infantry thanks to its scatter. So what else could you take? Of course a flamer Grey Hunter squad in a Rhino could suffice, but you've given us a choice between Land Speeders and Bikes. So in this case for anti-infantry I'd look into bog-standard Typhoons. Heavy bolters and frag missiles are amazing against infantry, especially if they're clumped up after knocking them out of those transports. And they've got krak missiles to help supplement those lascannons. But you probably know that already. One question, are the Land Speeders you're using Typhoons already? If so, I'd suggest banding them together into squadrons, I find a 2 vehicle squadron of Typhoons works better than two individual squadrons, especially if you want to utilize those frags, as you place them all before removing casualties rather than placing two, remove, then placing the other two if individual.

 

But due to their inherent fragility you want to keep them at long range, so they don't get picked off, especially at 90pts a pop. So bikes is a question, I believe you can kit them out nicely, not sure about Wolf Bikers. To be honest I prefer Speeders, but attack bikes are good, again not sure if Wolves can take them, I'd assume so. If you can then you could take HB squads to help with anti-infantry, or use MM for big vehicles, but I find Speeders can do this better, and they can have heavy flamers as well. Combat isn't a massive issue, and Speeders aren't locked in combat, which can be good, as your opponent won't be able to lock them to prevent them firing unlike bikes.

 

To be honest, I normally find Speeders to be more resilient and mobile, and in your army they'd fit well, everything is meched up and it gives nothing for your opponent to fire anti-personal weapons at. But bikes are unique among non-AV units in being able to also cope well with everything being meched up due to higher toughness, and in the case of attack bikes wound count.

 

I'd consider trying out both if able, but if I had to pick one I'd go for Speeders. 1x2 Typhoons and 2x1 MM/HF Speeders come to 320pts in total and I find them to be a very effective FA combo, with you able to hunt down larger vehicles, making your opponent split fire to take out the melta making them more resilient (somewhat) and also allowing better placement when closer to the enemy, and allowing you to stack missiles and keep moving in and out of cover for the Typhoons. Give it a try, I've enjoyed using it, and only don't use it now to save points, instead I use 1x2 MM ABs instead of 2x1 MM/HF Speeders, but I miss those Speeders.

[Schultzhoffen]

Typhoon speeders would be your best shot. They give you CML (frag options) and HBs. Useful for hordes and light vehicles.

 

Of course, your real problem is that you have only two troop choices and nowhere near enough bodies and may struggle against an army that can destroy vehicles in a heartbeat (DE, Tau, 'Crons, Eldar).

[spartan249]

The 3 speeders I already have are typhoons, and I have been trying to use them in the fashion described, but they honestly haven't been performing very well over the past year. While I appreciated the missiles at first, especially before all the new codices started hitting the game, I'm really starting to feel the bite of being overwhelmed in assault much too frequently, even with the Terminator counter-assault presence. Typhoons contribute absolutely nothing to this weakness (They're a part of it, to be honest), and they seem to be perpetually shaken, rendering the quite expensive investment useless.

 

Once I get the Ravenwing box, I'll have the biker squad and the extra speeder, which will give me both options to run. The bottom line is: Do I throw all my bets into shooting, assault be damned, or do I throw in the extra assault protection of the bikers (who have 4 attacks on the charge, much to my pleasant surprise)? I'm leaning more towards bikers because I'm familiar with Typhoons and their usual performance, while I have very little experience with bikers.

 

The way my recent games have been going, I'm noticing a slow movement back to infantry heavy lists, which is taxing my anti-armor focused list to the limit. The typhoons actually didn't do me much good because they were blast weapons - easily negated by spacing and low strength, and the scouts from my DreadRaiders were never really effective against infantry to begin with. The other side of that is the Typhoon's lack of disruptive ability: Typhoons can't speed in and engage firebase units in close combat or intercept incoming enemy melee units to tie them up. I'm thinking that, with Bikers, I'll finally have the ability to disrupt/destroy key elements in the enemy army that may be causing trouble from the flanks or rear, something which I've always had trouble with my C:SM Dreadraiders.

[DarkGuard]

Well to be honest mate it sounds like you've made your mind up, so I say go with the bikes. If you're not too happy with the Typhoons and have tried lots of different things with them then it may be time to try something else. I know how you feel with them, at first for me they weren't too great, when running them individually, but they still did OK. Then in a doubles tournament I ran them together (because I had no other choice, didn't have the spare FA slot) and found they performed spectacular, and so I've kept them like that. But while the memories of vaporising whole squads of Dark Eldar in a turn and destroyed transports with ease remain, they haven't really recaptured that form recently, and it's only my preference of them over Dreads at the moment (and their mobility) that stops me dropping them.

 

Go with the bikes, kit them out for combat, I'm not sure if an attack bike would be a good idea thanks to BS3 and Headstrong, but like you said they'll hit loads in attack. Power weapon or power fist? Of course, be careful, because MEQ will hit back hard, not due to toughness or save but their lower weapon skill, more hits means more chances to to wound, and therefore more failed saves. Play about with them for a bit, and if you find they don't work out, you can either change them a bit to get them a new role, or go back to Land Speeders, and you'll have an extra one as well!

 

Also, you seem to be concerned about the focus back onto infantry. IMO this is a good thing, my metagame seems to be doing that too, I imagine it has something to with Necrons and Grey Knights and what they can do to vehicles, more hybrid armies are surfacing which is good for me. However, have you considered perhaps changing the load out of a couple of your Dreads? Perhaps maybe an assault cannon on Bjorn and maybe another one. With BS6 Bjorn will pretty much hit all the time, and it gives you some anti-infantry punch, while also being able to threaten tanks. Of course its more short ranged, but if using bikes and maybe other harassing units it could be handy to have a couple of Dreads nearer to the lines to support, although I'd be wary of meltas as usual.

[spartan249]

To be honest, I'm a little hesitant to run anything that has a range shorter then 36" on a dreadnought because of the dread's inherent lack of reach otherwise. I suppose I can give it a try, as I do not need to buy anything to do so, but I'll put it on record now that I'm not optimistic about the swap.

 

As for speeders vs bikers, maybe I'm running too few of them, and really need to get a 4th typhoon into the mix. I think, if I drop Bjorn's TLLC and the vindicator's dozer blade, I can fit in the 4th typhoon into the list. I'm just saying that I've had a rough time of it with my speeders, as they're way too vulnerable to shaken results or simply being outright destroyed in the opening phases of the game.

 

Either way, I figured it'd be the way to go, as I was planning to start running a speedy Iron Hands army featuring bikers anyway. Thanks for your perspective, DarkGuard, it's always greatly appreciated. I'm sorry if I sounded already made up, I did a lot of thinking about this beforehand, and this was simply a consultation with others to get more perspectives before I start spending cash, SOP, in other words.

[DarkGuard]

Nothing to apologize about, I do the same thing sometimes, having thought about a decision and near enough decided I'll still post it on here to see what others think. As you've said it can put things into perspective, and even if people don't agree with the idea they give you things to think about, and even through making you defend your choice can help with your reasoning and understanding of the idea.

 

As for the Dreads, I was going to point out the plasma cannon, as they have a decent range, but you had mentioned disliking frags as anti-infantry due to their blast status, and of course scatter rolls. Also, I'd imagine they'd be harder to come by than assault cannons if you've been getting normal Dreads over Ven Dreads. I do understand the concern on running something short ranged, although with a decent run move and smoke you'd probably be in range turn 2, so you shouldn't have to wait too long.

 

I personally think the problem with the Typhoons could well be that you've used them long enough to see them do good things, and now people have wised up to them and take them out earlier, making them do less. It's happened to me, and in my experience it's simply a cycle, they do well, perhaps because your opponent doesn't think they're that good. Your opponent then prioritises them, and they don't seem to do as well. But this lets other units do better, and then your opponents start looking to them next, allowing your Typhoons to come back in. Of course, it may play out differently with you, everywhere is different.

 

The bikes look interesting though, especially as you do get a bucket load of attacks, of course, they lose half their attacks in the next turn, but that could work well, take out most the unit in the first turn, hope they stick around for round two, then finish them off and move on, with minimal casualties and no chance of being shot at inbetween assaults.

[Paulochromis]

Nothing to apologize about, I do the same thing sometimes, having thought about a decision and near enough decided I'll still post it on here to see what others think. As you've said it can put things into perspective, and even if people don't agree with the idea they give you things to think about, and even through making you defend your choice can help with your reasoning and understanding of the idea.

One of the things intelligent minds do is subconsciously suppress any counter-arguments, helping to reinforce the good vibe for the proposed decision.

When you announce the decision, the mind is suddenly free to voice those objections. Hence second thoughts.

The superior mind recognizes this and so solicits external opinion before deciding.

 

Enough "de Bono".

 

My own preference, coupled with your "disappointment" with speeders, would be to look seriously at the bikes.

I would be tempted to keep them close (very close) to the raiders to take down any "fast melta" that the opponent has.

Over time, as your ranged raiders & dreads de-mech your opponent, your bikers then use their relentless TL-bolters to shred the opponent's infantry.

[spartan249]

My own preference, coupled with your "disappointment" with speeders, would be to look seriously at the bikes.

I would be tempted to keep them close (very close) to the raiders to take down any "fast melta" that the opponent has.

Over time, as your ranged raiders & dreads de-mech your opponent, your bikers then use their relentless TL-bolters to shred the opponent's infantry.

 

This follows my own reasoning quite closely. I was, however, thinking also about whether the bikes would compensate adequately for the loss of the extra missiles to the first turn barrage. This is the one thing I have not resolved yet, so I'm still looking for thoughts on this. Is the opening barrage more important then late game clean up, or is the clean-up essential to a more effective list?

[DarkGuard]

I was under the impression that your Grey Hunters would be the clean up crew, able to do well in shooting with rapid fire bolters and plasma guns and well in combat with a multitude of attacks and power weapon. If they're not doing clean up then are there simply there to make the Land Raiders scoring?

[spartan249]

The Grey Hunters are there to do defensive clean up duty, which they have been doing adequately so far. What they are not able to do is proactive strikes into middleground or enemy territory, given that they are required to hold objectives as troops. I do not have enough grey hunters to throw about like that, hence why I was looking elsewhere for this striking power. I looked at Assault Marines and Wolf Guard for this, and I either didn't like the inflexibility or the fact that it would take an elite slot to take them.