Son of Rawl Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 Hey all, highlight the spoiler tag encase you have yet to read Mechanium Finished reading Mechanium again purely for the part about the Void Dragon in the Labrynth of Night and how the Emperor was the one who imprisoned it their, effectively creating the Machanium of Mars which ensured the success of the Great Crusade. After reading the new fluff for Necrons, does this mean that the Void Dragon is only a shard? Or is it one of the only confirmed C'Tan not to be shattered and imprisoned in the Tesserect dimension. In my opinion I believe it is still whole but was greatly wounded before its confrontation with the Emperor, this does tie in with the Necrontyr rebelling and going to war against them, it may have fallen to Earth and was hidden by the warp storms that surrounded the planet. To me the Dragon is a great piece of fluff and I would hate to see its role and threat downgraded in anyway. Is there something mentioned about the Dragon in the new codex as I have yet to pick a copy up Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242026-the-dragon-of-mars/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 I haven't yet read the Necron codex but..... This is entirely from what I've read online of the new codex. Now maybe he is the only remaining C'Tan and is perhaps using it's Mechanicus puppets as protection since the Necrons turned against the other C'Tan? Purely conjectural. I agree though he is a great piece of fluff and it'd be annoying if it was retconned. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242026-the-dragon-of-mars/#findComment-2924920 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coryphaus 101 Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 Perhaps he's a collection of shards, and so nearly whole? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242026-the-dragon-of-mars/#findComment-2924953 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 Or he's just a bigger shard. I don't see any serious contradiction between Mechanicum and the new Necron fluff in regards to what capabilities the Void Dragon might have. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242026-the-dragon-of-mars/#findComment-2924955 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 There was a post in the Adeptus Mechanicus forum discussing the connection between them and the Dragon. Although I would love to discuss Necrons and C'tan on this board we must follow the rules. There is precious little to be discussed regarding the Heresy series and the board mission statement on this matter since we just don't know for sure. I haven't access to a PC until this evening, so I can't provide a link to the old topic etc. Search Void Dragon within the topic title and you should find it. In the meantime I would like to point out this thread is hanging on by a... thread, as it is very loosely within B&C parameters and a short hop away from discussing the Necron Codex. I'm leaving it open so we can focus on discussion of the Mechanicium novel and the Emperor, but any wandering Admin or Mod might close it down if they feel it isn't within B&C parameters. Hoepfully I won't get told off for leaving it open, in that case! :P Many thanks. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242026-the-dragon-of-mars/#findComment-2924967 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Lord Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 I like the notion that it's a very big shard, that escaped the fate of being bound into a tesseract labyrinth. Given that the "talismans of Vaul" (Blackstone Fortresses) actually look more like something Necron (pyramids) than something Eldar, maybe they're what the Necrons used to shatter the C'tan in the first place- and it's simply Eldar legend that links them to Vaul? Also- Ferrus Manus, on his homeworld, fought something that appeared to be living metal, and dragon/snake shaped- maybe that was another Void Dragon shard? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242026-the-dragon-of-mars/#findComment-2925093 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valkyrion Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 At first viewing of the codex there is no mention at all of the void dragon. (maybe I missed it) Is it possible that the void dragon isn't even a c'tan? I can't think of a source that explicitly states the void dragon is c'tan. (also, FWIW, whilst the cron codex is out of bounds, the void dragon is a big part of the Imperium/Heresy/Admech, so surely that is fair game for debate?) (without wanting to upset the mods, of course... :P ) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242026-the-dragon-of-mars/#findComment-2925102 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Lord Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 The 3rd ed codex simply speaks of "The Dragon" - I think the term "Void Dragon" first appeared in one of the WDs shortly after the codex release. The vision Abaddon has of "something" on Mars having life force fed into it, combined with the Eldar prophesy later in the book "I have seen the doom of the universe" did suggest an affinity between the Dragon and the "entity on mars"- which ended up being supported further by the scenes in the Horus Heresy novel Mechanicum. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242026-the-dragon-of-mars/#findComment-2925131 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 The C'tan have been subjugated by the Necrons. The Void Dragon was subjugated by the Emperor. In both cases the C'tan are being used to further the goals of their conquerors. Seems like things still mesh to me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242026-the-dragon-of-mars/#findComment-2925168 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valkyrion Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 The c'tan haven't been subjugated though, they've all been obliterated long before the Emperor got there - thats the discrepency we're trying to marry. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242026-the-dragon-of-mars/#findComment-2925205 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dustermaker Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 The c'tan haven't been subjugated though, they've all been obliterated long before the Emperor got there - thats the discrepency we're trying to marry. The c'tan started destorying eachother, because their "life force" tasted sweeter than mortal ones. Only 4 remain now. Edit: Sorry, I just read about the conflict with the fluff now, my mistake. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242026-the-dragon-of-mars/#findComment-2925211 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ubermensch Commander Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 The c'tan haven't been subjugated though, they've all been obliterated long before the Emperor got there - thats the discrepency we're trying to marry. There is no discrepancy. In the new Necron fluff, the C'tan are broken down into Shards right after the War in Heaven ended. The Necrons split up the various bits and used them as "living" weapons. Seeing the Eldar coming after them with a vengeance, the Necrons decided to lay low for a while...a long while. During this time things got wonky. Worlds exploded, programing got corrupted and the old bits just broke down. Not all the C'tan shards are accounted for. In addition, it mentions some of the Necrons waking up in time for the Great Crusade. So it is quite feasible for the Emperor to have come across a shard of a C'tan while the majority of the Necrons are still sleeping and beat it into submission to use for his own ends. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242026-the-dragon-of-mars/#findComment-2925301 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valkyrion Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 Some necrons awoke during the great crusade - the Emperor and the dragon happened before the great crusade began, before the space marines were invented, so there is a discrepancy. There is no way for the Emperor to capture a shard prior to the great crusade. I also don't think a shard is powerful enough to do the things the void dragon is supposed to be capable of - if it is a shard then you've gone from Khorne to a bloodthirster in scale. It seems too small. The Emperor would be able to blink it out of existance. Like I said though, there is no mention of the void dragon at all in the current necron codex - I think this is going to become a retcon somewhere down the line, either in a future AdMech codex, or maybe the Eldar one, or even a follow up to mechanicum if there is one. Alternatively, the void dragon wasn't involved in the War in Heaven so remained intact, but then why doesn't the necron codex suggest that? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242026-the-dragon-of-mars/#findComment-2925671 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Lord Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 Even the shards explicitly have reality-warping powers. And there might be a degree of variation- with the ones in the codex being "weak shards" and it being possible for them to increase their power over time. The Emperor himself may have been weaker that early in human history- which might explain the creature being a challenge for him in the Mechanicum flashback. As for capturing it- Necrons and C'tan are somewhat limited vs the warp- and the Emperor was after all the most powerful psyker of all time. I don't seem much problem with a few shards escaping the Necrons and going into flight/hiding for millions of years. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242026-the-dragon-of-mars/#findComment-2925702 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ubermensch Commander Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 Some necrons awoke during the great crusade - the Emperor and the dragon happened before the great crusade began, before the space marines were invented, so there is a discrepancy. There is no way for the Emperor to capture a shard prior to the great crusade. I also don't think a shard is powerful enough to do the things the void dragon is supposed to be capable of - if it is a shard then you've gone from Khorne to a bloodthirster in scale. It seems too small. The Emperor would be able to blink it out of existance. Why wouldn't the Emperor not be able to grab it prior to the Great Crusade? ;) Walk back with me: C'tan are in existence, get broken into shards, are held by Necrons. Necrons go to sleep, bad stuff goes down, some shards get free during the ridiculous length of time between Necrons slumbering and the Great Crusade as their various Tomb Worlds go screwy. Aforementioned shards are around prior to the 41st Mil, so there is no reason, whatsoever, that one of them could not have plunked down on earth, possibly through that webway which in the new codex cracked their way into. Hell, maybe it broke free on Mars but only had enough power to float to the nearest habitable mudball with lives for it to eat. Just because they do not mention the Void Dragon by name does not at all mean it cannot be a C'tan shard. Heck, the only C'tan I recall being mentioned by name in the new book was the Deceiver. There is indeed a retcon in that sense. No longer are there just 4 C'tan after eating one another. But that does not invalidate Mechanicum entirely. The Emperor could indeed have encountered a rogue C'tan shard. They mention those in the new codex. How powerful was it? Cannot say. The Big E did not seem to have too much trouble with the bloody thing. Mind you, I would LOVE if they dropped the shoehorning of the C'tan into the background of the Mechanicum's fluff. But it still fits, more or less. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242026-the-dragon-of-mars/#findComment-2925938 Share on other sites More sharing options...
karden00 Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 i hope its an Emperor-imprisoned C'tan. I think of Ferrus, who had a living metal hand. I cant recall if this was a condition of his being taken by Chaos and dumped on whatever planet he ended up on, but if the Void Dragon did indeed get trapped by the Big E, on Mars, and it was a C'tan, it could link Ferrus back to the VD, since if Ferrus was created by the Emprah with his Living Metal hand, the Emprah had to get his hands on Necrodermis somehow... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242026-the-dragon-of-mars/#findComment-2926337 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watch-commander Albus Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 i hope its an Emperor-imprisoned C'tan.I think of Ferrus, who had a living metal hand. I cant recall if this was a condition of his being taken by Chaos and dumped on whatever planet he ended up on, but if the Void Dragon did indeed get trapped by the Big E, on Mars, and it was a C'tan, it could link Ferrus back to the VD, since if Ferrus was created by the Emprah with his Living Metal hand, the Emprah had to get his hands on Necrodermis somehow... No, Ferrus Manus got his hands of living metal after drowning the greatest wyrm of Medusa in boiling magma. A wyrm that was made of living metal. If you want a link between Ferrus and the C'tan, then perhaps the metal wyrm could be another c'tan shard. Personally, I do not like it. These C'tan shards are like the Fallen Dark Angels. A plot device misused to explain every open end. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242026-the-dragon-of-mars/#findComment-2926412 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The emperors chosen Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 Well remember, the Void Dragon awoke in what we consider to be the middle ages, so it would have been one of the very first shards to awaken, and so would have had more time than the others to build up it's power. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242026-the-dragon-of-mars/#findComment-2926780 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 Well remember, the Void Dragon awoke in what we consider to be the middle ages, so it would have been one of the very first shards to awaken, and so would have had more time than the others to build up it's power. Considering the assault on the senses that the characters in the Noctis Labyrinthus experienced in Mechanicum, I think it is unlikely that the Dragon imprisoned on Mars is just a shard of the Void Dragon. I really think it was the entire Dragon, at full strength. But again, that's just my interpretation. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242026-the-dragon-of-mars/#findComment-2926850 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saa Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 Personally I see little conflict with the new fluff. The C'tan aren't a race that humanity can quantify and say "Hey!! That's not a whole C'tan!! It's just a shard!!!!" So the Void Dragon could easily be a shard of above average size. It also now tallies with my previous opinion that Ferrus Mannus whooped the ass of the a C'tan (read as a shard now) Saa .....or something like that Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242026-the-dragon-of-mars/#findComment-2927300 Share on other sites More sharing options...
KhorneOnACob Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 From what I've read of the new Necron Codex, I don't see how the Dragon Of Mars needs any of its fluff changed. The Dragon the Emperor defeats and traps on Mars could feasibly be a large shard of the C'tan Void Dragon, that travelled to our Solar system, perhaps attracted by the Emperor's psychic power. We don't know the full power of the C'tan, just because the shard trapped on Mars displayed some serious power doesn't mean it was the whole Void Dragon, the C'tan ate suns so it's plausible that they were ridiculously powerful! The 'Wyrm' that Ferrus Manus killed could also be a very small C'tan shard (most likely also from the Void Dragon) or some kind of powerful Necron construct. This could possibly explain Manus's affinity with technology as well. That's just my theories anyway, I'm not an expert on the Necrons so there might be holes in this. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242026-the-dragon-of-mars/#findComment-2927560 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Culebras Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 Personally I see little conflict with the new fluff. The C'tan aren't a race that humanity can quantify and say "Hey!! That's not a whole C'tan!! It's just a shard!!!!" So the Void Dragon could easily be a shard of above average size. It also now tallies with my previous opinion that Ferrus Mannus whooped the ass of the a C'tan (read as a shard now) Saa .....or something like that My thoughts exactly. The author of the C'Tan shard entry spent a sizable amount of text basically saying that no one really knows what is and is not a c'tan and he talks about how the more humanity learns about them, the further they get from any real understanding. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242026-the-dragon-of-mars/#findComment-2927633 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nova_Dew Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 Sorry for the thread-o-mancy but a few thoughts 1) The Golden Toilet, was made on Mars but meant for something on earth 2) That something on earth links to a part of the webway that as far as we know "un-used" 3) The older book or books mentioned the Necrons as been known to fly past or try to get to Mars 4) An Eldar Craft world has a path that goes close to the Sol system 5) The dragon was on earth during the Dark Ages If not before... how old are the tails of Dragons? My conclusion Mars could have been a Necron World (goes with the whole "piramids" on mars) and it could have been a Dolmen Gate on earth the the big E was working on Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242026-the-dragon-of-mars/#findComment-2938711 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Culebras Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Sorry for the thread-o-mancy but a few thoughts 1) The Golden Toilet, was made on Mars but meant for something on earth 2) That something on earth links to a part of the webway that as far as we know "un-used" 3) The older book or books mentioned the Necrons as been known to fly past or try to get to Mars 4) An Eldar Craft world has a path that goes close to the Sol system 5) The dragon was on earth during the Dark Ages If not before... how old are the tails of Dragons? My conclusion Mars could have been a Necron World (goes with the whole "piramids" on mars) and it could have been a Dolmen Gate on earth the the big E was working on Its possible, but I think I remember somewhere that the Emperor wasn't so much breaking into the webway as building his own section of it, which is fairly impressive since neither the necrons or the Eldar were able to do that. (the Eldar can repair and seal off, but there is no indication they can expand the webway while the necrons have shown the ability to break into it, but not much else) I agree that there is likely to have been a necron presence on Mars at some point. At the same time, the Eldar could have been responsible for inspiring tales of elves on earth, so the idea of a webway portal being located on Earth/Terra is also a possibility. Neither ideas are too far out there. In all, i believe that the Emperor was more likely to be trying to synthesize the two together. Taking Necron super science and combining it with Eldar Psychic-engineering in order to create a new tool to bind the imperium together. Had things not gone awry, the next step of the great crusade would likely have been an invasion of the webway, eventually seizing and then establishing routes between major Imperial Worlds that would have forever bound the Imperium together. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242026-the-dragon-of-mars/#findComment-2939669 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wulf Vengis Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Using the much safer webway as opposed to the highly dangerous warp travel that birthed the Imperium would only have been the next step in FTL travel for mankind... Id never thought of that before huh. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242026-the-dragon-of-mars/#findComment-2939718 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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