Searchlight question

[meatball]

With the new Necron character night fighting tricks some issues have risen concerning searchlights in C:SM. Firstly, once an enemy was successfully acquired by a searchlight can subsequent vehicles shooting also light up a target? This is pointless in current scenarios but considering that the Necrons can enforce night fighting in subsequent turns maybe you just want to back up that forward rhino searchlight with a backfield predator searchlight that I imagine would automatically work since you don’t need to roll for spotting distance anymore.

 

Secondly is the range of the searchlight infinite? Can said predator 48 inches away light up an already lit up target with its searchlight? Nothing in the rules against infinite range but…

 

I would say yes and yes to both issues but I'm not sure.

 

Please help out a fellow brother marine.

[JamesI]

You have to see the target with your normal nightfighting roll to light it up with the searchlight.

[Seahawk]

Once a target is lit up in a turn, there's actually no point to using any more that turn. Amusingly, the searchlight works even during their "solar pulse" ability.

 

"We're basically blind, it's so bright, arg!" "I know, let's shine a light on them!" "Oh, now we can see just fine." :rolleyes:

 

 

I'm hijacking with another searchlight question. Can you use one even when you go Cruising Speed and can't normally fire a weapon?

[breng77]

Range of searchlights = 36" as that is the farthest you can see with 2D6 x 3.

 

Searchlights only last for the rest of the shooting phase (RAW in Space marine dex), and then the enemy can see you during the following shooting phase.

 

So while you could multiple search light one target there is not point as it only lasts one phase, the only thing it would accomplish is having more than one of your vehicles visible on the enemy turn. Though I am not even sure that this works. The SL rules state that the vehicle must use night fight rules to pick a target, and then anything else firing on that target does not have to roll. Search lights don't fire.

[Acebaur]

I would say that you cannot use a searchlight to light up a target when you can't fire a weapon(like cruising speed). You can however, try to use a searchlight even when you know the target can't be harmed by your weapon or is out of your weapons range

[dswanick]

I would say that you cannot use a searchlight to light up a target when you can't fire a weapon(like cruising speed). You can however, try to use a searchlight even when you know the target can't be harmed by your weapon or is out of your weapons range

And I would say that a Searchlight is a piece of wargear just like Smoke Launchers is wargear. Smoke Launchers can be used even if the vehicle can not shoot or has no weapons, so why would searchlights be any different?

 

As for the multiple searchlights on a single target, I would say "pointless". Once a target is lit up from a units searchlight it is lit up for the remainder of the turn. Multiple searchlights lighting up a single target confer no additional benefit.

[Acebaur]

I would say that you cannot use a searchlight to light up a target when you can't fire a weapon(like cruising speed). You can however, try to use a searchlight even when you know the target can't be harmed by your weapon or is out of your weapons range

And I would say that a Searchlight is a piece of wargear just like Smoke Launchers is wargear. Smoke Launchers can be used even if the vehicle can not shoot or has no weapons, so why would searchlights be any different?

 

Because smoke launchers have rules/FAQ that specifically say that you can use them even if the vehicle can't shoot. Searchlights are used as part of the vehicle shooting.

[Valkyrion]

the searchlight rules make no references to shooting. No roll to hit is required, the only rule that matters is being within range, which only matters in the shooting phase. Its wargear, not a weapon. Enemies get no cover save against it, it cannot be destroyed by a weapon destroyed result.

'Vehicles moving at cruising speed may not fire' is the BRB says. You don't fire a searchlight.

[Spacefrisian]

So you arent shooting but you must pick a target, wich can only be done by ... shooting?

 

Confusing

[dswanick]

So you arent shooting but you must pick a target, wich can only be done by ... shooting?

 

Confusing

Not really. The rules allow you to declare as a target a unit which is clearly outside of a unit's weapon's maximum range. The rules even allow you to do so if the unit has no ranged shooting attack (a Librarian must designate a target unit in the shooting phase before rolling his psychic test, which can fail). Logically, as the Searchlight is a piece of wargear (thus can not be removed by Weapon Destroyed results), which is used in the shooting phase but is not "fired", which has no written limitations on when it can be used, and is limited only by a die roll as to distance of how far away the target of its effect can be - then there is no RAW reason to claim that it can not be used when moving at any speed.

[Valkyrion]

If it was a shooting attack then it couldn't be used. Its a piece of wargear used in the shooting phase. Nothing about it in any way resembles a shooting attack apart from the phase in which it is used. If cruising speed said 'vehicles moving at cruising speed may not perform any actions in the shooting phase' then the searchlight would be disallowed.

[ShinyRhino]

I think the crux of the argument is whether the Night Fighting roll is a precursor to firing a weapon, or simply an act taken during the Shooting phase prior to firing a weapon.

The rules seem to indicate that it is a precursor:

 

After selecting a target, but before a unit fires,

a check needs to be made to see if the firers can clearly

spot their target through the darkness. Roll 2D6 and

multiply the result by 3, then measure the distance

between the two units (remember that distances

to/from vehicles are measured to/from their hull, and

not their guns). If the distance between the firing unit

and their target is higher than the total rolled, the unit

cannot fire at all in this Shooting phase, as they search

the dark for a target that never appears.

 

The bold emphasis is mine. Night Fight rules from the BRB require you to pick a target at which to shoot. Otherwise, you're not a "firing unit" or a "firer". As mentioned, the searchlight isn't a weapon, so it does not "fire." It is wargear that causes an addon effect to the vehicle's shooting attacks. So, if you cannot fire a weapon (shaken, stunned, move too fast), you can't use the light.

 

Now, what will REALLY blow your mind is "What happens when a vehicle with a Barrage or Ordnance Barrage weapon attempts to use a searchlight?"

[Jacinda]

That's a good argument, but it is not the searchlight rules. That is how Nightfight works if you do not have a searchlight. Codex over rules BRB.

[dswanick]

That's a good argument, but it is not the searchlight rules. That is how Nightfight works if you do not have a searchlight. Codex over rules BRB.

Ah, but he does have a point. C:SM states:

If a vehicle has a searchlight it must still use the night fighting rules to pick a target but, having acquired a target, will illuminate it with the searchlight. For the rest of the Shooting phase, any other unit that fires at the illuminated unit does not use the night fighting special rule.

So the Searchlight-equipped unit still has to follow those rules before the Searchlight special effect can come into play, and one of the pre-requisites is that the unit in question declare a Shooting attack against the target unit.

The question then becomes - does the BRB preclude the declaration of a Shooting attack if the firing unit has:

1> A Shooting attack the is incapable of damaging the target unit? (could I PotMS a Stormbolter shot at a Land Raider to qualify as illuminating it?)

2> A Shooting attack that is known to be out of range of the target unit? (as missed shots still seem to count for illumination)

3> A Ballistic Skill greater than 0, but no Shooting attack? (does a Rhino with a Weapon Destroyed {Stormbolter} also effectively lose the Searchlight?)

I don't think the rules prevent these units from declaring a Shooting attack, rolling for vision range and therefore illuminating a target. And if #3, a model with a BS but no shooting attack can do so, then so can a vehicle which has no Shooting attack because it moved too fast.

[Acebaur]

In response to dswanick:

 

1: This one is kind of tricky, though I think you can, because even if the weapon can damage a vehicle doesn't mean it will. You could technically go through the motions and roll for damage and you will always come up short.

2: Definitely. Because for one thing you don't pre-measure range, so you won't know if you are in range until you try.

3:I would say no, based on ShiniRhino's quote on night fight which you must first follow according to the searchlight rules. If you cannot declare a shooting attack, you cannot use a searchlight since the latter is dependent on the former.

[pyroknight]

Now, what will REALLY blow your mind is "What happens when a vehicle with a Barrage or Ordnance Barrage weapon attempts to use a searchlight?"

 

Wait...If I use an Ordnance Barrage to shoot at a unit that I don't have LOS sight to (rolling full 2D6 scatter), can I still search light it? This seems like it is allowed, but such lightbending hurts my brain. Maybe he shoots a flare along with his barrage...

[dswanick]

In response to dswanick:

 

1: This one is kind of tricky, though I think you can, because even if the weapon can damage a vehicle doesn't mean it will. You could technically go through the motions and roll for damage and you will always come up short.

2: Definitely. Because for one thing you don't pre-measure range, so you won't know if you are in range until you try.

3:I would say no, based on ShiniRhino's quote on night fight which you must first follow according to the searchlight rules. If you cannot declare a shooting attack, you cannot use a searchlight since the latter is dependent on the former.

The problem here is none of these points has any RAW which prevents a unit from declaring a shooting attack, so all should give the Searchlight benefit. I can find no RAW which says a vehicle which has lost all of its weapons loses its ability to declare a Shooting attack, just that it has no weapons available to actually complete the attack (splitting hairs I know, but that's what the +OR+ is for, right? :) ). The only RAW which says a unit may not shoot is on a vehicle which has moved Cruising (or Flat Out for Skimmers). Personally, I'm not married to the idea that a vehicle which has lost its last weapon should still be allowed to use its Searchlight, but it seems kind of harsh for a Rhino with a Stormbolter and a Searchlight to lose both the Stormbolter and any means of using the Searchlight to a single Weapon Destroyed result.