Hephaesteus Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 Hi all, So I was wondering about the final battle with Horus, Sanguinius and the Emperor. I appreciate we are a good while away yet from the end of the series, so this is all maybes, possibilities, old fluff and retcon's. As a quick recap; at the end of the battle for Terra the Emp and his 'strike team' teleport onto the vengeful spirit but are all separated. Sanguinius gets to the bridge first and turns down Horus's (Horus'? Horuses?) offer to turn to the dark side. Horus and the Angel fight and Horus kills Sanguinius. Sanguinius manages to leave some sort of wound in Horus's armour before he dies. The Big E then arrives and he and Horus have the mother of all fights but the E doesn't want to open the whole can of whoop on his favoured son until a guardsman/custodes/loken/alpha legionaire runs in and Horus vaporises him. The Emperor then, realising he has no other option, opens up his full can of whoop psychically on Horus. The Chaos gods see what is about to happen and make a quick exit, leaving Horus a second of realisation before he is annhilated. now for my questions (thanks for bearing with me); Does Sanguinius leave a physical wound for the Emp to exploit? I always understood this to be the case, however, If the Emp defeats Horus (and all four Chaos gods to boot) using his mind-karate-bullets. Then would a physical wound make any difference? Might it be an emotional chink he creates? If I remember correctly Horus thinks Sanguinius should have been Warmaster and was also his favourite brother. Possibly then the act of having to kill his closest brother opens up a link to the 'old' Horus, enough of a doubt to leave the E a gap to reaching/defeating him? Do the chaos gods need to use the Emperors sons (and corrupt them) to try to force the E to not smack down the four of them? If he so powerful that they all turn tail and run once he decides there is no more restraint. If they went for him directly they would lose (or at least take a heck of a beating)? Does any of this change in light of The Outcast Dead? Now the Emp knows what he has to do and what has to happen, is his restraint (and so his interment on the throne) even more tragic? If he went all out as soon as he sees Horus he might have survived. Is it his humanity (or love for it and for Horus), and hope that Horus would relent, his ultimate downfall? (As he says in TOD, he wants people to make the decisions themselves. Not through his interference if able). I meant for only one question, but as usual, once i started to type it became longer and more convoluted! Thanks very much for your thoughts! PS if anyone writing on the series wants to use 'mind-karate-bullets', they are welcome to it. I think it has the right amount of awesome to it! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242059-a-question-on-the-battle-between-horus-and-sanguinius/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clewz Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 Maybe the wound is guilt from Horus killing one of his most beloved brothers Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242059-a-question-on-the-battle-between-horus-and-sanguinius/#findComment-2925445 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demus Ragnok Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 I've wondered if perhaps Horus' armor was akin to Grey Knight armor in that it was "blessed"(by chaos) to add protection from psychic attacks. And maybe Sanguinas in the throughs of the rage produced enough psychic backlash to leave an opening just big enough that someone with the E's level of power could exploit it. Or Horus just felt guilty. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242059-a-question-on-the-battle-between-horus-and-sanguinius/#findComment-2925521 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WatchCaptainAzrael Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 Considering the Emperor and Primarchs were by and large genocidal selfish pricks, I'm skeptical of any explanation involving guilt. Sanguinius probably just reduced his armor save a tad and big E got lucky in the end. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242059-a-question-on-the-battle-between-horus-and-sanguinius/#findComment-2925733 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-chaplain Astador Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 I always thought the small wound Sanguinius made in Horus armour was either retconned or just an example of poor fluffwork that had been phased out/ignored. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242059-a-question-on-the-battle-between-horus-and-sanguinius/#findComment-2925767 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 I don't know, I find it a plausible element per se. Sanguinius was a most capable fighter, it makes sense that, even in a wounded state, he'd manage to at least open a chink in Horus' defenses - if it sounds hard to believe, given the difference in power and Horus' rested state, one can always attribute the wound to the Warmaster being overconfident. Now, the fact that said wound was what allowed the Emperor to blast Horus' soul is a bit more cliché, but not that cringe-worthy. Sure, the Big E wouldn't usually need it to put Horus out of his misery, but he was in a sorry state. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242059-a-question-on-the-battle-between-horus-and-sanguinius/#findComment-2925913 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heru2012 Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 I don't know, I find it a plausible element per se. Sanguinius was a most capable fighter, it makes sense that, even in a wounded state, he'd manage to at least open a chink in Horus' defenses - if it sounds hard to believe, given the difference in power and Horus' rested state, one can always attribute the wound to the Warmaster being overconfident. Now, the fact that said wound was what allowed the Emperor to blast Horus' soul is a bit more cliché, but not that cringe-worthy. Sure, the Big E wouldn't usually need it to put Horus out of his misery, but he was in a sorry state. I always assumed Horus' armour afforded him some sort of warp/psychic defense, and that the attack launched by the emperor wasn't just a soul killer, but hit through the chink in his armour, destrying him in body and eradicating his soul. Unless it is more of a metaphor, and that the opening in Horus' armour caused by Sanguinius was infact an emotional one. After seeing what he'd done to his angelic brother, it opened up a little niggle of guilt/remorse maybe, that the Big E could use to break his defenses. Lets not forget that Horus was corrupted, almost slain and whispered to by the gods, basically returned from death a changed man. Unlike the "majority" of other Primarchs he needed to be corrupted in soul to join, and apart from a few, I can't see any of the others joining Horus for anything more than selfish reasons. Horus came out believing HE alone should rule the Imperium as he was the one that was fit to do so, but I think all of the other events leading up to the murder of his brother and the near murder of his father cleared the fog, if even for a second, as he realised how far he'd fallen, and that he was being manipulated by chaos instead of being its master, as he could have never even dreamed of hurting his father and slaying his brother so callously before the anathame. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242059-a-question-on-the-battle-between-horus-and-sanguinius/#findComment-2926537 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coryphaus 101 Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 Lets not forget that Horus was corrupted, almost slain and whispered to by the gods, basically returned from death a changed man. Unlike the "majority" of other Primarchs he needed to be corrupted in soul to join, and apart from a few, I can't see any of the others joining Horus for anything more than selfish reasons. Horus came out believing HE alone should rule the Imperium as he was the one that was fit to do so, but I think all of the other events leading up to the murder of his brother and the near murder of his father cleared the fog, if even for a second, as he realised how far he'd fallen, and that he was being manipulated by chaos instead of being its master, as he could have never even dreamed of hurting his father and slaying his brother so callously before the anathame. Can I quote you on every thread that comes up from now on saying 'Horus was so weak, he was such an idiot'? You just summed that up so perfectly. Back in topic, how do we it's not both? Sanguinus could have taken a chink out of Horus' armour (physical armour), Horus got super mad, killed Sanguinus (his favourite brother), Sanguinus dies, Horus' looks at Sanguinus' broken body and feels a (very) small trickle of guilt as his 'old self' feels bad about killing his brother. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242059-a-question-on-the-battle-between-horus-and-sanguinius/#findComment-2926744 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hephaesteus Posted November 18, 2011 Author Share Posted November 18, 2011 I agree with coryphaus, that is a cracking answer heru! I like the idea that his armour is Chaos blessed, it gives me the idea of the chaos gods surrounding the armour to psychically protect Horus as well as physically. I can't remember where i read it, but liked the idea of the battle being fought on different planes of existence all at once. So then the physical chink in the armour might not make all that much difference to a psychic level. But in a finely matched battle might be just enough of an edge overall. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242059-a-question-on-the-battle-between-horus-and-sanguinius/#findComment-2926804 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heru2012 Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 Why thank you! I will now not post again for at least a year, as karma is want to balance itself and I am bound to say something pretty stupid in return. Oh and Coryphaus you may quote me as much as you like! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242059-a-question-on-the-battle-between-horus-and-sanguinius/#findComment-2926851 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 No no, I didn't mean the chink in Horus' armour to be a metaphor for his guilt. I meant that, if it sounds too implausible for a wounded Sanguinius to hurt a Warp-powered Horus in a straight fight, then maybe the Warmaster got overconfident, took a wild swing at the Angel just for giggles, and got his armour rent open for being cocky. Then he took things seriously and pretty much trampled Sangy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242059-a-question-on-the-battle-between-horus-and-sanguinius/#findComment-2926935 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lagbenektelse Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 An easy explanation for the unease of horus...the gods told him they were lying during the future montage or the emperor filled in the parts that were missing...such as his.actions caused the future he saw... Or even better as he was a true devotee of chaos at that point he pulled the martyr card and died to ensure endless war Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242059-a-question-on-the-battle-between-horus-and-sanguinius/#findComment-2926955 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heru2012 Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 No no, I didn't mean the chink in Horus' armour to be a metaphor for his guilt. I meant that, if it sounds too implausible for a wounded Sanguinius to hurt a Warp-powered Horus in a straight fight, then maybe the Warmaster got overconfident, took a wild swing at the Angel just for giggles, and got his armour rent open for being cocky. Then he took things seriously and pretty much trampled Sangy. I think its been described that Sanguinius was one of, if not in the top two best fighters out of the Primarchs, to be fair, I think Sanguinius only getting one good hit in at Horus and wounding him ever so slightly says more for how good Sanguinius was than how poor Horus was. At that point Sanguinius was suffering from the Rage, I doubt the injuries would have been that much of a hindrance, and yet he managed to wound his brother who was his equal BEFORE chaos got to him. It shows why the emperor would have struggled against Horus, pre heresy he could defeat the Primarchs with only a little effort on his part, but by the time Horus came to Terra it took Horus being distracted by flaying a random guardsman/custodes/alpha legionnaire for the Emperor to kill him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242059-a-question-on-the-battle-between-horus-and-sanguinius/#findComment-2927065 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Apostle Thirst Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 My favorite explanation is that Sanguinus didn't do anything but die heroicly, and when Horus was a step from killing the Emperor, the Chaos Gods said "Good luck with your father" and utterly abandons him. Horus looks at Sanguinus and goes :P :eek ;) shortly before the Emperor removes Horus in every way possible. At least, IMHO... A lot of people (including me) are biased on this one. Be careful; let's keep this reasonable. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242059-a-question-on-the-battle-between-horus-and-sanguinius/#findComment-2927473 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowHaunt Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 It always interests me that the various theories about the climactic battle assume the Emperor's motives to be entirely pure. The assumption is that he held back his power out of love for Horus, perhaps some belief he could be saved. Honestly, that doesn't make much sense to me. Why, exactly, would Horus blasting some no-name guardsman to dust make him see that his son was lost, if he didn't see it when he enters the room to see the broken body of his OTHER son, Sanguinius? Horus original indignation at his father stems from the belief that the Emperor is preparing for his own apotheosis, right? Well, what if that belief wasn't false? And what if part of that ascension requires his physical death at the hands of a being empowered by the Warp? Perhaps he wanted to die, because it would cause him to ascend to a form that could square off with any of the Big Four on their own turf - and in so doing, he would be safeguarding mankind against them, by giving them all a guardian in the warp. What if he was lying there, wounded, about to die, with Horus about to strike the final blow, before Tzeentch saw that he was 2 moves from checkmate, and pulled back, taking the other three with him, to deprive the Emperor of that empowering death? And then, seeing them gone, he HAS to blast Horus, because to die at his hands without the Ruinous Powers behind him, would be death indeed, and not ascension? Perhaps he put so much into it, hoping to catch some shred of the powers in the blast, and pull one of them back to complete his plan. There are too many points at which it seems like the Emperor is blinded, to make sense, unless the whole rebellion is, at some level, part of his plan all along. But what does the rebellion do for him, that he couldn't do himself? Culling marines is easy, just stop replacing them, while you still have battles to fight. The only thing it brings him, is a chance to be slain at the hand of a Champion of the Ruinous Powers. It's a thought, anyhow. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242059-a-question-on-the-battle-between-horus-and-sanguinius/#findComment-2932242 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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