Ravenwing in combat

[captain Angel]

Here is the question. When you split into combat squads, you have two groups of 3 bikes and a single attack bike, as well as an independent speeder. How due they operate when they are all together? as all bikes and the speeder alone? or as a single unit? or does the bikes stay together and the attack bike and speeder go their own way?

[Xyon]

The attack bike and the landspeeder will always be on their own according to the ravenwing specific combat squad rules. The regular bikes can choose whether or not to combat squad.

[shabbadoo]

Maybe captain Angel means when they are all involved in a single close combat. As Xyon said, the Land Speeder and Attack Bike are always separate units. If you split the 6 bikes up into two combat squads of three bikes each, then you have 4 units in total. They may not rejoin with each other during the game. When all are together in the same close combat, they are 4 separate units. That means if you lose a close combat round the two combat squads of three bikes each and the Attack Bike will each be taking a Morale check(3 checks in total); being a vehicle, the Land Speeder takes no Morale Check.

[Xyon]

That would be one heck of a unique situation to have all 4 in the same combat.

[captain Angel]

Thanks all. I menat if they were not to split into combat squads. Plus they are fearless so it would be based on failed saves.

[shabbadoo]

If the regular bikes are not split then there would be a maximum of three units- the 6 bikes, the attack bike, and the Land Speeder. If the RW lose combat(by 3 let's say) and take No Retreat! wounds, the regular bikes will need to make 3 armor saves and the attack bike will also need to make 3 armor saves, as they are separate units and so each suffers the full results of the combat; the Land Speeder is unaffected by the combat results.

[Isiah]

the Land Speeder is unaffected by the combat results.

 

Just to add that it is subject to normal cc results but not to the No Retreat! part has the speeder isn't Fearless.

[shabbadoo]

:teehee: Yeah, don't want to confuse any n00bs. Vehicles are of course affected by close combat attacks and damage, just not by close combat results(i.e. Morale checks, No Retreat! wounds, etc.).

[Vexicus]

What about Kill Points? Does the UNIT count as 1 kill point or is it 4 kill points?

[Xyon]

Same as normal combat squadded stuff. Each squad deployed is 1 kill point, so if you do take the full RW squad and break the bikes in two, its 4 KP total, since its 4 deployed squads. Kind of also like how multiple IG infantry squads can blob together and become 1 KP.

[ValourousHeart]

It sounds like RW have a ton of kill points... But from my experience if you are using full attack squads it is usually about a 2 point difference, sometimes in your favor.

 

Well that was the case before GK anyway.

 

So at 1k Sammy + 2 full RWAS is 7-9 kill points.

Before GK, most codices 1k list sat between 5-11 kp.

[Xyon]

You can have a lot of kill points, you'll also have a lot of scoring units too. You may have 4 KP from 6 bikes 1 attack bike and 1 speeder, but 4 scoring units too.

[krewl]

Yep, but Killpoints killed the ravenwing fo competative play as you just have to many small units.

I can confidantly trade 4 attack bikes for a kill on a landraider in the victorypoints scenario, but in KP's you'd be down 4-1.

As most tournaments have 1 in 3 games as annihilation losing 1 game almost automatically puls you out of the bracket to win top 3. Here's to hoping 6th edition dos away with Killpoints :)

[Cloud Runner]

Also don' forget the speeder is NOT a scoring unit, as it is a vehicle.

[Isiah]

A speeder is indeed a scoring unit when bought with an RAS unit as our Codex tells us it is :D [p27 Codex DA for refernce].

[ValourousHeart]

It has never cost me 4 AB to kill a land raider.

Perhaps your tactics could use some revisiting.

 

After the 4 bikes blow up the land raider, are all 4 assaulted at once?

Perhaps not keeping them so close together would stop this.

 

No tring to insult you, but a LR plus the unit inside is a significant investment, and typically is geared for cc, with limited range options.

You should be able to kill the LR with one salvo of 4 mm, with only 1 attack bike as a viable assault target unless they detach an IC.

Detaching the IC would be dumb, because you will light it up with 3 AC next round and your 2 remaining AB will be turbo boosted away.

If they don't detach, you will still have 3 AB who will have boosted away.

 

The choice is yours, you continue to complain about kp or you can adapt.

Adapting is far more likely to get you to the elusive top tables that you prize so much.

[krewl]

Ouch.... ValourousHeart, you are beeing very nice today..

 

You are reading to much in a simple example. I meant to point out the weak spot in killpoints, it puts a value of 1 on any unit, where that value does not represent the battlefield worth of a unit.

Victorypoints do represent that worth. 1 unit of 10 paladins can run up to 700 points and it's one killpoint. 1 Rhino is 35 points without upgrades also worth one killpoint.

See the point I am trying to make, it's about killpoints beeing a scewed method of measuring who is winning as opposed to VP's.

If I lose 5 units deathwing (240 a piece), enemy has lost 4 rhino's and 2 troops, I win the game, although he might have killed 80% of my army and lost 15% of his.

 

With regards to killpoints beeing an auto lose, unless I am up against a bad general (and I tend to play the higher tables so thats usually only the case in the first matchup) any other army will have a S8 shot or 10 to throw at those attack bikes. I used to run 5 in my 1750 RW list. Also 4 troops are 3 men met T5(4) and a 3+ save units. Again, easy killpoints by any definition. Add in 3 speeders with AV10 and a full RW squad with the upgrades and a chaplain as the only somewhat durable unit in my list (Sammy on jetbike somewhat counts as durable due to his adamantine mantle etc.).

 

Thats 12 easy killpoints (Of 15) that have a good chance to die to to the ever available melta/missiles/lances/psyfldreads and the list goes on. Not to mention the fact that ravenwing is a shooting army and cc is a last resort so if any unit gets caught in cc they are usually toast quite fast. Ravenwing are a prototype glas knife army, sharp and deadly but so very easy to break if used wrong or if you deploy incorrectly at the start or during the game.

Killpoints enhnce that issue because it creates a weakness which was not there before. If I'm killing more or your army they you are killing from my army VP wise I am pretty much winning, Killpoints lats me lose a game that on the table top I am winning and that is what I meant to point out.

 

Back to the landraider example, if I'd take out a landraider I'm not seeing it as if those are the only units on the table, there wil be more units, and hopping out to be in double pen dice range of the hypothetial landraider (Or whatever You are shooting at) means you are often exposing your units to return fire, THAT is what kills 4 units for the gain of 1 landraider. Not the contents of said raider (and I know how to block and position to avoid beeing multicharged) but the fact that you have to commit and thus expose your army. It's hard enough on tournament tables where cover tends to be sparse anyways to get your positioning done correctly to minimise return fire while you keep alternate targets available for units in case you blow the main target up on the first shot. Playing a Killpoint mission makes almost any type of unit exchange situation a game losing one.

 

I consider myself a pretty compentent general and I played Ravenwing in 4th edition as a tournament army, so please don't drop in and assume I'm just whining cause I don't know how to play.

As I think I tried to describe I usually manage to win more games then I lose at least, and based on VP's I come out on top a lot. Same for scoring objectives, RW is actualy very good at that, every last fearless lone biker can rush up and boost to claim or contest an objective last turn, very annoying for your opponent. It' just that loosing one game out of 3 (A normal 1 day tournament) puts you in mid field if you win the other normally, and due to the system here 2 x your kilpoints is a 18-2 loss. Top scoring players on most of the national tournies I play end up in the mid 50-s out of 60 battlepoints. Losing 18 of the potential 60 just drops you off for top 3 and hence the prizes. So if aiming for the top 3 is your goal, yes I'd leave the

 

If you are dutch send a PM and you can show me how to make ravenwing win KP games, I'd be both seriously impressed and gratefull.

I just can not see how you would win with any RW army of your choice vs one of my GK/SW/DA/SM tournament armies in a killpoint mission.

As it is I will stand by my oppinion, Ravenwing are one of my fun armies till there's either a new codex or 6th changs the game mechanic.

 

And I do play the top tables I so prize :) just with a Deathwing army that does not suffer the same issues (It actually has low killpoints so KP is where they benefit from the faulty mechanic).

See here for a report (and also of my huge loss lost weekend, doesn't fit to only brag when your winning B) )

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=240922