Kamehameha! Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 Reserved space for any IA drafts that will hopefully appear in the near future, but will probably appear in the far future. Where there is only war... and procrastination. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242099-the-hollow-sons/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kamehameha! Posted November 17, 2011 Author Share Posted November 17, 2011 Hi Guys. I have had an idea for a DIY chapter knocking around for a while now, and it’s gotten to the stage where I’d really like your input on it. I’m a very new member to the B&C as far as posting is concerned so I apologise for the rudeness of asking for help when I haven’t given any critique of my own in the Liber as of yet. I hope to correct that in the near future. In this post I’m going to lay out my main ideas for what I want to achieve in each IA section, along with the overarching themes of the chapter. After hopefully getting some feedback on the relevance and plausibility of that information, I’ll start to polish things up to a better standard. The name is a semi-certain working title, but I’m open to suggestions. One bowling ball to the face please! _____________________________________________________________________ The Hollow Sons Overview Founding: 3rd Gene-seed: Jaghatai Khan Training Cadre: Storm Lords Theme: A grim, sombre chapter who believe the end of the Imperium to be inevitable. Origins I want this chapter to have a serious fixation on the Siege of Terra, which they see as the beginning of the end for humanity. Here’s what I came up with to facilitate that. • Although the White Scars abhor the idea of Dreadnoughts, to preserve first-hand accounts of the Battle of Terra, several of the many mortally wounded marines from the battle volunteer to sacrifice themselves to ‘the Iron Grave’. • Two such warriors become part of the Storm Lords chapter in the 2nd founding. • Ancient [Name Pending] spends his slumber in introspection on what his purpose is now that the Emperor has failed. • Due to his vast experience, he is selected as part of a training cadre in the 3rd founding. • The training cadre defer to his age and wisdom in most matters, and begin to agree with his bleak viewpoint on the universe. • Over the resulting millennia the beliefs of the original chapter cadre are strengthened in the ranks of The Hollow Sons. Homeworld • A mid-sized hive world that is positioned where the chapter will come into contact with the forces of chaos as a primary threat. • Non Greco-roman planet name – beyond that personal choice I have no real ideas on the matter. • Recruits are taken at birth and trained/conditioned from the earliest possible time. • The recruitment process is so stringent since the chapter believes that the tribal savagery their gene-stock are known for is unfitting of Astartes in a dying empire, whereas it might have been appropriate in the Great Crusade – a time of triumph. • I have mental-images of steel walled training centres where the applicants are trained both mentally and physically, often in isolation bar members of the chapter, and are encouraged to show no emotion. All very dystopic and grimdark. Combat Doctrine / Organisation • The chapter venerate the Primarchs above all else but the Emperor. Seeing the codex as the condensed battlefield wisdom of all nine loyalist Primarchs and given its expansive and peerless content, they have never consciously considered deviating from it. • I want the Sons to use Whirlwinds and Land Raider Helios’ to batter their enemies before launching assaults. Will it be hard to justify having many long-range support tanks on the battlefield given that they are a codex chapter? • As an old chapter they have a larger number of earlier armour types available although they are still rare. Those FW kits are something else huh? Beliefs • The Primarchs, the Astartes and the Great Crusade were the culmination of all humanity has worked towards, and it failed. I want a feeling of ‘we had our chance, we blew it’. • All that remains to the Astartes is to honour their father’s original wishes, and maintain the dying Imperium as long as they can. • Out of respect for the Primarchs they protect the people of the Imperium, but they don’t really care about humanity any more. • The overall difference is illustrated by the following example. If a Black Templar was informed that an entire nearby system of planets was lost to the Orks recently, he’d say ‘Damn those blasted Xenos!’ or words to that effect, and then prepare the crushing counter-attack. If you told a Hollow Son the same information, he would say ‘Everyone dies…’ or something equally clichéd and depressing, then prepare the crushing counter-attack. Geneseed I explained my original thoughts on the geneseed and heritage of the Hollow Sons near the start of the post, although when I finally get to the full IA draft stage that will all move to its traditional place down here. I’d love to be able to keep the Jaghatai Khan geneseed because it opens up my little Dreadnought story in the Origins section. Plus I think the phrase ‘the Iron Grave’ is pretty darn cool – but that might just be me… He is also my favourite Primarch, whose Legion is criminally underrepresented in the fluff. I can’t think of any huge reasons why the Khan geneseed would be a problem, but if anyone has spotted something I haven’t, and I find their reasoning compelling enough, I suppose they’ll be a good old Ultramarines successor. Battlecry This’ll come later. I doubt they’ll be yelling stuff as they charge into battle, it just doesn’t seem in character, so maybe I’ll come up with a call-respond phrase which the Sons say amongst themselves before battle. Colour Scheme and Heraldry No idea. Really drawing a blank on this one so far. I’ll be spending time poking around on the B&C painter to see if something grabs me, but I’m lacking inspiration at the moment… All I can say with any real certainty is that I want them to have large metallic portions to their armour. _____________________________________________________________________ Anyway. Turns out I have far too much to say for myself. Hope this all seems plausible/interesting, but if not, tell me why not. You can never know too much about 40k! Cheers! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242099-the-hollow-sons/#findComment-2926203 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demus Ragnok Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 I suppose the "hollow" in the hollow sons is the depression angle. I have a hard time putting the "oh well everybody dies" attitude together with genetically engineered killing machines devoted to the destruction of mankinds enemies. Dark and brooding yes that could work. Maybe more like "the galaxy is a hard place, but we are harder still". Space Marines in general are,well, fanatical in one way or another thats just what they are. Their lives have singular, clearly defined purpose kill, kill, kill. They have no time for "oh dear me the palace was breached". Yes 10000 years ago now get up off your cry baby butt and kill some xenos! Thats just the feeling I get at first read. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242099-the-hollow-sons/#findComment-2926325 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cromat Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 Not a bad start. The sooner you flesh this out the better, since it's pretty bare bones right now. A few things I saw that need work: - the story of your drednoughts can work, but the 3rd founding was pretty well documented. It's unlikely that a new chapter would be created here and we've never heard about it. Bumping it up a couple of foundings would give you more flexibility and give those drednoughts more time to sleep (they get tired fast :)) - if your marines recruit initiates as babes, what's their criteria for whom they take? What happens to those who fail? How do they know they've come from worthy stock when they can't even walk yet? Space Marines start recruiting kids at age 10 because it gives them a fully developed child to work with who's had a hard enough history to be considered a worthy recruit. I just don't see this idea working. Plus, Space Marines do not take change diapers :) - having a fatalistic disposition is fine (not to mention appropriate) but these guys have no time to sit around and cry about how we lost the Great Crusade (as posted above). Every victory they bring makes the Imperium a little bit stronger. They could however fight somewhere in Segmentum Solar, helping to see that the Siege of Terra never happens again. That might work. - It's easier to find things in the Codex you can't do than scrutinize on what you can do. It was designed to be extremely flexible. There wouldn't be an issue with you guys rainin' down 'splodey bitz with whirlwinds before assaulting. - as far as I know, the White Scars have a pure and stable geneseed, so using it would be fine. - Yes. Those FW kits are very nice. That's why they're so expensive! - Try to have your chapter colours reflect the chapter's attitude. I envision these guys in black base with silver trim, as if holding the void of their sorrow in a steel cage in order to wield it as a weapon. That's just me though. Heraldry could be a hollow star design of some sort. Like a hollowed out sun. That would convey their fatalistic beliefs well, as if they feel they're defending a dying imperium. That's all I have for now. Hope that helps. Good luck on your fleshing out and welcome to B&T. I'm a new poster myself and trying to scratch out my own chapter, so I know how you feel :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242099-the-hollow-sons/#findComment-2926350 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Raimeous Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 While I think that it makes some sense for a chapter to be all doom and gloom, believing that humanity is circling the drain, but they still need a reason to fight. Maybe their attitude is that humanity is doomed and their duty is to delay the inevitable end. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242099-the-hollow-sons/#findComment-2926379 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kamehameha! Posted November 18, 2011 Author Share Posted November 18, 2011 Thanks very much for your responses! Some great advice in there. My thoughts. I suppose the "hollow" in the hollow sons is the depression angle. I have a hard time putting the "oh well everybody dies" attitude together with genetically engineered killing machines devoted to the destruction of mankinds enemies. Dark and brooding yes that could work. Maybe more like "the galaxy is a hard place, but we are harder still". Space Marines in general are,well, fanatical in one way or another thats just what they are. Their lives have singular, clearly defined purpose kill, kill, kill. They have no time for "oh dear me the palace was breached". Yes 10000 years ago now get up off your cry baby butt and kill some xenos! Yeah that was the idea with the hollow. Perhaps it's just the way I explained it, because I think its pretty plausible. The Doom Eagles believe that they are already dead and they still fight just as well as other marines, whereas the Hollow Sons believe everyone is already doomed, and all that remains is to honour their Primarch's memory by continuing his work as long as they can. They'll fight with all the effectiveness and brutality of other Astartes, it'll just be cold, clinical efficiency rather than focused fury. - the story of your drednoughts can work, but the 3rd founding was pretty well documented. It's unlikely that a new chapter would be created here and we've never heard about it. Bumping it up a couple of foundings would give you more flexibility and give those drednoughts more time to sleep (they get tired fast ) Ahh right, showing my naivety a bit there. I thought it was only the 2nd founding that was completely locked up. I'll probably only go one further to the 4th founding if someone else agrees that 3rd is implausible. I want to keep them old, plenty more time to mope... and brutally kill stuff ;) - if your marines recruit initiates as babes, what's their criteria for whom they take? What happens to those who fail? How do they know they've come from worthy stock when they can't even walk yet? Space Marines start recruiting kids at age 10 because it gives them a fully developed child to work with who's had a hard enough history to be considered a worthy recruit. I just don't see this idea working. Hmmm yeah thats a good call. I dunno, I guess I wanted a really stringent recruitment system to emphasize how they are trying to rid themselves of the heriditary tribal savagery that the Khan's geneseed is famous for, and this is what I came up with. Back to drawing board? Plus, Space Marines do not take change diapers That's an easy fix. The ultimate punishment for a chapter serf's failure is being made into a nursemaid servitor. :P - having a fatalistic disposition is fine (not to mention appropriate) but these guys have no time to sit around and cry about how we lost the Great Crusade (as posted above). Every victory they bring makes the Imperium a little bit stronger. Yep, I definatly haven't explained this well... Darn! See my answer to Demus Ragnok for a little of my reasoning. They are a supremely effective fighting force, as all chapters are, the difference is only in there mindset. All of the doom 'n' gloom outlook is kept to the reflection periods and chapter sermons, and doesn't hamper them in their primary purpose. Is that a better explanation, or is it still not gelling for you guys? -They could however fight somewhere in Segmentum Solar, helping to see that the Siege of Terra never happens again. That might work.- It's easier to find things in the Codex you can't do than scrutinize on what you can do. It was designed to be extremely flexible. There wouldn't be an issue with you guys rainin' down 'splodey bitz with whirlwinds before assaulting. - as far as I know, the White Scars have a pure and stable geneseed, so using it would be fine. - Yes. Those FW kits are very nice. That's why they're so expensive! - Try to have your chapter colours reflect the chapter's attitude. I envision these guys in black base with silver trim, as if holding the void of their sorrow in a steel cage in order to wield it as a weapon. That's just me though. Heraldry could be a hollow star design of some sort. Like a hollowed out sun. That would convey their fatalistic beliefs well, as if they feel they're defending a dying imperium. - Segmentum Solar sounds good. Fits the theme very well - Thanks! - I figured that would be fine, I don't see the codex as rigid and limiting like many people seem to. - Good stuff, Sons of Khan they remain! - Very. When I come to build the army it'll be a few suits in each squad to keep the costs down, even though a whole army would look gorgeous! - Colour-scheme is gonna need a lot of brainstorming on my part, thanks for the tip on reflecting the theme. While I think that it makes some sense for a chapter to be all doom and gloom, believing that humanity is circling the drain, but they still need a reason to fight. Maybe their attitude is that humanity is doomed and their duty is to delay the inevitable end. Yeah, that's the exact angle I'm going for. Judging by the responses I've done a supremely poor job of explaining myself. :rolleyes: ________________________________________________________________________________________ Thanks very much for all the tips and advice guys! I'll be away this weekend, but I hope to be able to spend some time on this after work on the weekdays. I'd love to hear more thoughts and opinions so please chime in over the next view days if you spot anything. Thanks again! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242099-the-hollow-sons/#findComment-2926418 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace Debonair Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 - the story of your drednoughts can work, but the 3rd founding was pretty well documented. It's unlikely that a new chapter would be created here and we've never heard about it. Bumping it up a couple of foundings would give you more flexibility and give those drednoughts more time to sleep (they get tired fast ) Ahh right, showing my naivety a bit there. I thought it was only the 2nd founding that was completely locked up. I'll probably only go one further to the 4th founding if someone else agrees that 3rd is implausible. I want to keep them old, plenty more time to mope... and brutally kill stuff ;) My view on this is entirely the opposite of Cromat's. :rolleyes: As far as I'm aware, the 3rd founding has plenty of spaces open for DIY chapters, and the 2nd founding is the one that has most of the stuff presently filled in. I could be wrong, of course. But the dreadnought story I find really hard to accept. Think about it. Khan and his lads hate the very idea of dreadnoughts. They simply don't use them, since they are soul-prisons for warriors whose spirits should be granted freedom. It's not beyond all imagining, however, that a veteran might hop into a dread just to preserve, as you say, first-hand accounts of the Siege of Terra. Now, regardless of the 'scars view on dreads, this is still an ancient, respected veteran of the heresy, locked inside a near-priceless relic. It's not the most sensible decision to give him away to a successor, if he's volunteered to preserve his wisdom for his legion/chapter. But it happens anyway. It makes even less sense that the Storm Lords would then give away such a valuable, venerated Heresy-era veteran inside an equally valuable, Heresy-era combat engine like it was a game of pass the parcel. On top of that, it adds nothing but believability problems to the chapter that you couldn't get by just having a similarly fatalistic Captain. KingHongKong's Astral Reavers were founded in the 3rd founding by a Heresy veteran, so the Hollow Sons could also happily (or miserably!) get away with it. ;) Other than that, I don't have much issue with the chapter as an idea. Fatalistic marines who are resigned to the idea that one day all things must end could be fun to write! As for colour schemes... I'll put my Heraldry Department Hat on later, and see if I can't come up with something to inspire you. :P EDIT: Also, kudos for picking Khan's lineage. Dude was awesome and needs more successors. :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242099-the-hollow-sons/#findComment-2926426 Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightrawenII Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 I suppose the "hollow" in the hollow sons is the depression angle. I have a hard time putting the "oh well everybody dies" attitude together with genetically engineered killing machines devoted to the destruction of mankinds enemies. Dark and brooding yes that could work. Maybe more like "the galaxy is a hard place, but we are harder still". Space Marines in general are,well, fanatical in one way or another thats just what they are. Their lives have singular, clearly defined purpose kill, kill, kill. They have no time for "oh dear me the palace was breached". Yes 10000 years ago now get up off your cry baby butt and kill some xenos! Yeah that was the idea with the hollow. Perhaps it's just the way I explained it, because I think its pretty plausible. The Doom Eagles believe that they are already dead and they still fight just as well as other marines, whereas the Hollow Sons believe everyone is already doomed, and all that remains is to honour their Primarch's memory by continuing his work as long as they can. They'll fight with all the effectiveness and brutality of other Astartes, it'll just be cold, clinical efficiency rather than focused fury. ~ - having a fatalistic disposition is fine (not to mention appropriate) but these guys have no time to sit around and cry about how we lost the Great Crusade (as posted above). Every victory they bring makes the Imperium a little bit stronger. Yep, I definatly haven't explained this well... Darn! See my answer to Demus Ragnok for a little of my reasoning. They are a supremely effective fighting force, as all chapters are, the difference is only in there mindset. All of the doom 'n' gloom outlook is kept to the reflection periods and chapter sermons, and doesn't hamper them in their primary purpose. Is that a better explanation, or is it still not gelling for you guys? ~ While I think that it makes some sense for a chapter to be all doom and gloom, believing that humanity is circling the drain, but they still need a reason to fight. Maybe their attitude is that humanity is doomed and their duty is to delay the inevitable end. Yeah, that's the exact angle I'm going for. Judging by the responses I've done a supremely poor job of explaining myself. :rolleyes: My problem with gloomy, fatalistic Chapter is that it's about to fall into kettle of Nurgle. This guy is literal manifestation of depression and hopelessness. - if your marines recruit initiates as babes, what's their criteria for whom they take? What happens to those who fail? How do they know they've come from worthy stock when they can't even walk yet? Space Marines start recruiting kids at age 10 because it gives them a fully developed child to work with who's had a hard enough history to be considered a worthy recruit. I just don't see this idea working. Hmmm yeah thats a good call. I dunno, I guess I wanted a really stringent recruitment system to emphasize how they are trying to rid themselves of the heriditary tribal savagery that the Khan's geneseed is famous for, and this is what I came up with. Back to drawing board? Red Scorpions. Cheers, NightrawenII. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242099-the-hollow-sons/#findComment-2926456 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kamehameha! Posted November 18, 2011 Author Share Posted November 18, 2011 I'm honoured by your presence good sir! Big fan of the Stonebound! My view on this is entirely the opposite of Cromat's. As far as I'm aware, the 3rd founding has plenty of spaces open for DIY chapters, and the 2nd founding is the one that has most of the stuff presently filled in. I could be wrong, of course. Ah that's good to know. I wouldn't have minded too much if the consensus was that they had to be 4th founding, but to have a real link to the heresy, the older the better. :P But the dreadnought story I find really hard to accept. Think about it. Khan and his lads hate the very idea of dreadnoughts. They simply don't use them, since they are soul-prisons for warriors whose spirits should be granted freedom. It's not beyond all imagining, however, that a veteran might hop into a dread just to preserve, as you say, first-hand accounts of the Siege of Terra. Now, regardless of the 'scars view on dreads, this is still an ancient, respected veteran of the heresy, locked inside a near-priceless relic. It's not the most sensible decision to give him away to a successor, if he's volunteered to preserve his wisdom for his legion/chapter. But it happens anyway. It makes even less sense that the Storm Lords would then give away such a valuable, venerated Heresy-era veteran inside an equally valuable, Heresy-era combat engine like it was a game of pass the parcel. On top of that, it adds nothing but believability problems to the chapter that you couldn't get by just having a similarly fatalistic Captain. KingHongKong's Astral Reavers were founded in the 3rd founding by a Heresy veteran, so the Hollow Sons could also happily (or miserably!) get away with it. But Contemptor Dreads are cooooool [/whine] I thought the idea of a select group of marines agreeing for the good of the legion to be consigned to 'the iron grave' was a nice concept. Did I mention how much I like the phrase iron grave? :rolleyes: Still, the White Scars hatred of the concept is a big stumbling block for me in terms of plausibility. The thing that turned me on to the idea of Dreadnoughts was actually the dates between foundings. The Liber's timeline puts the 2nd at 021.M31 and the 3rd at 001.M32. As far as I know, Dante is the only marine to live past 1000 and that was remarkable even for a Blood Angel. This made me unsure if could justify a normal, living heresy veteran surviving all the way to the 3rd founding and beyond. More thought needed i guess... On the pass-the-parcel concept, that wasn't how I wanted it to come across. I envisaged no more than 10 marines over the course of the Heresy and the Scouring making the ultimate 'ultimate sacrifice'. The plan would be to spread them through White Scar successors to make sure the lessons of those times aren't forgotten. It just so happens that one particularly morbid Ancient is passed to the Hollow Sons and impresses his grim views on the fledgling chapter. So both the Storm Lords and the White Scars would still have Heresy veterans of their own, despite having passed priceless wisdom/equipment down to a 3rd founding chapter. It's a very cumbersome idea, and butts heads with existing canon, so while I quite like it, it might not make the final cut. As for colour schemes... I'll put my Heraldry Department Hat on later, and see if I can't come up with something to inspire you. You're too kind. I've given you nothing to work with on that front. Unless you have a particular hankering for designing a scheme don't put yourself out on my account ;) Alright! This time I actually am going away for the weekend. Thanks for everything so far, I'd love to hear anymore thoughts people have! TTFN EDIT: Just saw your response NightrawenII. I have train to catch so I'll get back to you Sunday evening or early in the week. Thanks for your thoughts, even though I don't have a chance to read what they are just yet! :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242099-the-hollow-sons/#findComment-2926457 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace Debonair Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 But Contemptor Dreads are cooooool [/whine]I thought the idea of a select group of marines agreeing for the good of the legion to be consigned to 'the iron grave' was a nice concept. Did I mention how much I like the phrase iron grave? It's a fine concept, except it punches my suspension of disbelief right in the groin, then kicks it whilst it's down. Inheriting dreadnoguhts from a legion that canonically doesn't use dreadnoughts isn't a good idea. Have dreads in your chapter, sure, but do it because your chapter is fatalistic and accepts that even soul-prisons like the dreadnoughts make little difference to their fate, or something. It makes you different from the White Scars, instead of making the White Scars different from the White Scars. As far as I know, Dante is the only marine to live past 1000 and that was remarkable even for a Blood Angel. This made me unsure if could justify a normal, living heresy veteran surviving all the way to the 3rd founding and beyond. More thought needed i guess... If one DIY can have a marine who fought in the heresy leading a 3rd founding chapter, then so can yours. ;) On the pass-the-parcel concept, that wasn't how I wanted it to come across. I envisaged no more than 10 marines over the course of the Heresy and the Scouring making the ultimate 'ultimate sacrifice'. The plan would be to spread them through White Scar successors to make sure the lessons of those times aren't forgotten. It just so happens that one particularly morbid Ancient is passed to the Hollow Sons and impresses his grim views on the fledgling chapter.So both the Storm Lords and the White Scars would still have Heresy veterans of their own, despite having passed priceless wisdom/equipment down to a 3rd founding chapter. It's a very cumbersome idea, and butts heads with existing canon, so while I quite like it, it might not make the final cut. It's a neat idea, but it's sort of... well, The Imperial side won. Space Marines are proud, and stick to their traditions. It's just hard to imagine the White Scars going 'let's stick some veterans in these horrible spirit cages in case they come in handy for teaching future generations (that as far as we know at this point will actually still be part of the legion) how we won'. That and you picked the legion least likely to actually execute this concept! :P ... Don't change the legion, though. White Scars rock. :D As for colour schemes... I'll put my Heraldry Department Hat on later, and see if I can't come up with something to inspire you. You're too kind. I've given you nothing to work with on that front. Unless you have a particular hankering for designing a scheme don't put yourself out on my account Hahahahahahaha! BWAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! :) I mean, um, *Grabs Heraldry Dept. Hat, pauses, and gets the Goggles too* I think I can run up a few ideas. :) ...I realise Hawk Turquoise doesn't really gel with cold, dour and depressed, but I am honour-bound to suggest it because turquoise is AWESOME and under-used, like the White Scars. :P EDIT: Excuse the fact they all have orange eyes. I actually meant to change that from scheme to scheme, but at least it works more-or-less ok. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242099-the-hollow-sons/#findComment-2926489 Share on other sites More sharing options...
G3rman Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 This chapter just made me think of the Dark Hunters as far as their personalities go. Not sure why you picked to come from White Scars if you don't necessarily plan to focus on fast attack, a UM successor would work just as well. I also disagree to the Dreadnaught idea of the WS, they just don't use them at all. I also can't see a WS being particularly grim, they are savage warriors that know no 'end' or at least wouldn't accept it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242099-the-hollow-sons/#findComment-2926917 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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