apocalypse question

[khurdur]

Hello, I was wondering, do gargantuan creatures take 1 or D3 from D strength weapons?

In the D weapon entry, it says instant kills, or if they have eternal warriors, only one.

In the gargantuan section, it says they are immune to the insant death rule, and if something kills outright, like a force weapon or

characteristic test, they take D3 wounds.

 

Kind of contradictory? What do you think? I'm leaning to only one wound cause I want to field An'grath the unbound !

[dswanick]

You are correct.

> A Str D weapon always wounds a creature hit.

> The wound is always Instant Death.

> Gargantuan Creatures are immune to Instant Death.

> Str D weapons inflict 1 wound on creatures immune to Instant Death.

 

The GC would take d3 wounds if Str D "killed outright" instead of causing "Instant Death", which it does not.

[Leonaides]

immune to id is not the same as having ew... In this case, i'd suggest d3 wounds ought to be inflicted.

[Frosty the Pyro]

immune to id is not the same as having ew... In this case, i'd suggest d3 wounds ought to be inflicted.

negitive, the d3 part is for attacks that surpase the power of instant death, things like lucas's last laugh, jaws of the world wolf, old force weapons (do any of those still exist?) or gift of mutation and the ilk. Bog standard instant death is covered by being imune to instant death.

 

 

And yes being immune to ID is the same as having EW, except in the cases of rules that specificly mention EW, of which there are none i can think of.

[dswanick]

immune to id is not the same as having ew... In this case, i'd suggest d3 wounds ought to be inflicted.

negitive, the d3 part is for attacks that surpase the power of instant death, things like lucas's last laugh, jaws of the world wolf, old force weapons (do any of those still exist?) or gift of mutation and the ilk. Bog standard instant death is covered by being imune to instant death.

 

 

And yes being immune to ID is the same as having EW, except in the cases of rules that specificly mention EW, of which there are none i can think of.

^This.

I listed the relevant bits of the Apocalypse Rulebook rules concerning StrD, Instant Death, and GCs in order to illiustrate the logical chain which leads to the result of 1 wound. Nowhere do any of the Apocalypse rules mention Eternal Warior because Eternal Warrior is a 5th Ed rule created after the Apoc book was published. But having a special rule of "immune to instant death" is equivalent to having "Eternal Warrior" except, as mentioned, where the specific USR is referenced by name. :rolleyes:

[khurdur]

right, thank you...thats what I thought too

An'grath the unbound here we come !

[Seahawk]

As a side note, this has been updated. In Imperial Armor Apocalypse 2nd edition, the rule has been streamlined and changed to the following:

 

"All Gargantuan Creatures are immune to the Instant Death rule. In addition, because they are so large and powerful, they are not affected by any attack that would normally kill a model automatically (like a force weapon, an attack that kills as a result of a failed Characteristic test, etc). Such attacks cause D3 wounds instead."

 

 

So, all such attacks deal D3 wounds now, not just 1.

[timmytool]

As a side note, this has been updated. In Imperial Armor Apocalypse 2nd edition, the rule has been streamlined and changed to the following:

 

"All Gargantuan Creatures are immune to the Instant Death rule. In addition, because they are so large and powerful, they are not affected by any attack that would normally kill a model automatically (like a force weapon, an attack that kills as a result of a failed Characteristic test, etc). Such attacks cause D3 wounds instead."

 

 

So, all such attacks deal D3 wounds now, not just 1.

 

Without the new book to quote I could be wrong but if the D weapon entry only mentions instant death (even if it explains how instant death works in a "kill the model automatically" way) it wont trigger the second sentence, so only 1 wound. It does not say "instant death attacks now causes D3 wounds", Frosty's post above still holds true.

[dswanick]

timmytool is correct. IA Apoc 2 changes nothing in how these rules are worded or interact. The rules are copy/pasted from the Apoc rulebook to this latest book.

[Seahawk]

No, he's not. I didn't include the whole rule section but they have completely removed all reference to a "only does 1 wound" rule. There's only the rule for D3 wounds now...so that's all there is :mellow:

[dswanick]

No, he's not. I didn't include the whole rule section but they have completely removed all reference to a "only does 1 wound" rule. There's only the rule for D3 wounds now...so that's all there is :mellow:

You'd better re-read the Destroyer weapon rules in the Appendix III:Special Rules section on Pg.126 of Imperial Armour Apocalypse 2, then. Last line of the last section.

[Hellios]

No, he's not. I didn't include the whole rule section but they have completely removed all reference to a "only does 1 wound" rule. There's only the rule for D3 wounds now...so that's all there is :D

You'd better re-read the Destroyer weapon rules in the Appendix III:Special Rules section on Pg.126 of Imperial Armour Apocalypse 2, then. Last line of the last section.

 

You may need to re-read his post! He said Imperial Armour Apocalypse 2nd edition, not Imperial Armour Apocalypse 2. That is a remake, updated, improved and all together wonderful 2nd edition of the first book and not the second. I haven't got it myself but before you continue your argument you might want to read from the same book.

[Seahawk]

Yep, IAA2 is superceded by IAA 2nd Ed. Page 128, Appendix IV. Sorry for any confusion! FW wasn't very creative with their titles...

 

However, after a further search through IAA 2nd Ed, the D-weapons section does say "If the target is immune to Instant Death, the the Destroyer will cause one wound as normal." Still, this rule is only in place for little models with Eternal Warrior or some such. Destroyer weapons vs Gargantuan Creatures will now do D3 wounds, as that is the normal and doing only a single wound against GCs is not normal or even in the rules.

 

So, one rule says GC suffer D3 wounds from this weapon as it normally inflicts Instant Death.

Another rule says models immune to Instant death suffer "one wound as normal" from this weapon that inflicts Instant Death.

 

A GC is immune to Instant Death. Now, which rule does it follow? Both are perfectly applicable, though I would argue the GC rule supercedes the D-weapon rule for two reasons: 1) it comes after the D-weapon rule, and 2) it uses the same wording involving Instant Death.

[Frosty the Pyro]

Seahawk, you are very confused.

 

Gargantuan creatures are immune to instant death, which means under normal circumstances a wound that causes instant death does not kill the gargantuan creature. And as the wound does not under normal circumstances kill the creature, therefor does not meat the requirments to instead do 1d3 wounds.

 

 

As a side note, why do we care what ANY IA book says? This is Oficial rules, and the only place you can find official rules for gargantuan creatures and destroyer weapons is the apocolypse rulebook.

[Spacefrisian]

Isnt a GC already immume to Psychic powers? thus making Jaws and or Forceweapons irrelevant?

[dswanick]

No, he's not. I didn't include the whole rule section but they have completely removed all reference to a "only does 1 wound" rule. There's only the rule for D3 wounds now...so that's all there is :P

You'd better re-read the Destroyer weapon rules in the Appendix III:Special Rules section on Pg.126 of Imperial Armour Apocalypse 2, then. Last line of the last section.

 

You may need to re-read his post! He said Imperial Armour Apocalypse 2nd edition, not Imperial Armour Apocalypse 2. That is a remake, updated, improved and all together wonderful 2nd edition of the first book and not the second. I haven't got it myself but before you continue your argument you might want to read from the same book.

That's what I was referring too. 2nd Ed , not IAA II - sorry for your confusion. The section and page number reference were correct, however.

[dswanick]

Yep, IAA2 is superceded by IAA 2nd Ed. Page 128, Appendix IV. Sorry for any confusion! FW wasn't very creative with their titles...

 

However, after a further search through IAA 2nd Ed, the D-weapons section does say "If the target is immune to Instant Death, the the Destroyer will cause one wound as normal." Still, this rule is only in place for little models with Eternal Warrior or some such. Destroyer weapons vs Gargantuan Creatures will now do D3 wounds, as that is the normal and doing only a single wound against GCs is not normal or even in the rules.

 

So, one rule says GC suffer D3 wounds from this weapon as it normally inflicts Instant Death.

Another rule says models immune to Instant death suffer "one wound as normal" from this weapon that inflicts Instant Death.

 

A GC is immune to Instant Death. Now, which rule does it follow? Both are perfectly applicable, though I would argue the GC rule supercedes the D-weapon rule for two reasons: 1) it comes after the D-weapon rule, and 2) it uses the same wording involving Instant Death.

See my initial post. The Str D automatically causes an Instant Death Wound on an unsaved hit. It does not "kill automatically", "kill outright" or any such thing. As such an unsaved Instant Death Wound is ignored by the GC and, per the Destroyer rule, instead causes 1 wound. If a Destroyer Weapon "killed automatically" or the equivalent wording then yes - it would cause d3 wounds. But it does not.

[Frosty the Pyro]

Isnt a GC already immume to Psychic powers? thus making Jaws and or Forceweapons irrelevant?

 

A GC is imune to psychic powers that lack a strength value, so it is imune to Jaws (althought even if it wasnt imune to psychic powers, jaws has a specific list of unit types it can effect, gargantuan creatures are not on the list), force weapons are sorta iffy because its a modification of a wound that was caused by a normal attack. Not that it matters any more as I dont beleive there are any old style force weapons left (which killed outright), and new style force weapons cause instant death, which GC are immune to.