Predators or Vindicators?

[OIF Knight]

Which do you like more and why?

[JamesI]

I personally prefer Vindicators.

 

Vindicators can hurt anything. Vindicators can move 12 inches and fire, while if a Predator wants to fire everything it can only go 6. I like my army moving the full 12 inches, so jump infantry can huddle behind the vehicles until it is time to strike.

 

I will admit I had poor results when I tried using predators and eventually gave up on them.

[Taranis]

I agree on Vindicators. For exactly those reasons except I never tried Predators.

[Brother Nathan]

yup vs predators vindicators. though the joy of still being able to take vindicators and baal predators...(cost the same points too...)

[Max Power]

Based on my experience, I prefer predators. I find that vindicators will let you down at a crucial moment - I'm not fond of anything that scatters 2d6". I find that weight of fire usually gets me farther than one blast that can easy scatter in a direction that does nothing for you. Another major issue I have is that it's ridiculously easy in this edition to get a 4+ cover save, which negates a lot of the killing power of the vindicator. But, they guys above seem to have had good results. The best thing you could do is to get a few games with both, and make your decision based on how they work with the rest of your army.

 

Max

[JamesI]

yup vs predators vindicators. though the joy of still being able to take vindicators and baal predators...(cost the same points too...)

I often take 2 Vindicators and 1 Baal in lists when I don't intend to play pure jumpy. Its a nice combo, and even leaves me another heavy slot (perhaps a 3rd vindicator should appear...)

 

Based on my experience, I prefer predators. I find that vindicators will let you down at a crucial moment - I'm not fond of anything that scatters 2d6". I find that weight of fire usually gets me farther than one blast that can easy scatter in a direction that does nothing for you. Another major issue I have is that it's ridiculously easy in this edition to get a 4+ cover save, which negates a lot of the killing power of the vindicator. But, they guys above seem to have had good results. The best thing you could do is to get a few games with both, and make your decision based on how they work with the rest of your army.

 

Max

The bolded is an extremely important point. What works for me may not work for you. Style of play is important.

 

I've had some good luck recently using Corbulo's reroll to negate bad scatters from Vindicators, though not much can be done about the preponderance of cover.

[AbusePuppy]

Predators are great anti-tank when armed with the Autocannon on top and Lascannons on the sides. Long range and the ability to shuffle 6" (unlike other armies' Predators) while still firing to full effect means they can usually mitigate cover on their targets and avoid getting left out of the battle. On the other hand, the "Dakka" configuration (Autocannon + Heavy Bolters) loses a lot of value in an army with excellent anti-infantry by virtue of assaulting, and the Fast tax means it loses its other big selling point (cheapness), so I'm not a fan of them in BA. Usable, but not great. Overall, the Predator is an excellent tank in BA because of its ability to stand back and shoot, which is often what you need from your Heavy Support slots.

 

Vindicators I don't like. At all. Yes, its gun has big scary numbers on it, but it doesn't ignore cover (so your single shot is usually worse than the several weaker shots other platforms put out), isn't particularly accurate (BS4 blasts are about 50% hit rate) and is easy to shut down (due to side armor 11 and having only a single weapon.) If your opponent is stupid and bunches up his models outside of cover, sure, it'll murder things... well, assuming it hits, anyways. But against competent players that stick to cover, spread their units out properly, and know how to use flanking tactics to take advantage of the weaker side armor, it will generally get into range, take a single shot (killing 1-3 infantry models), and then spend the rest of the game stunlocked or dead.

 

A lot of people love the Vindicator. Personally, I've never been scared of them in the slightest.

[Sanguinarian]

I have had 100% suck luck with my Vindicator!!! At best, sans its one and only weapon, it contested an objective on the last turn after moving flat-out. That is probably the only "gold star" I can give it. I really wish they would have given it a no scatter rule if within template range, or some kind of direct fire no scatter. But alas, 'tis simulated/emulated war-play not the real deal. :D I too encourage you to try a pair of both and see which is more effective for you.

[JamesI]

I have had 100% suck luck with my Vindicator!!! At best, sans its one and only weapon, it contested an objective on the last turn after moving flat-out. That is probably the only "gold star" I can give it. I really wish they would have given it a no scatter rule if within template range, or some kind of direct fire no scatter. But alas, 'tis simulated/emulated war-play not the real deal. :D I too encourage you to try a pair of both and see which is more effective for you.

direct fire no scatter would be way too good. Its not like the Vindicator can indirect fire anyway.

[Tamwulf]

Preds all the way for me. Especially in Blood Angels as we have nothing but fast Predators. I'll caveat that by saying I've never fielded a Vindicator, but I've faced them several times across the table and can say I was never impressed by their performance, even when fielded in the dreaded Phalanx formation (Vindi in the middle, Rhinos on both sides). Cover saves are too easy to get, and Space Marines with Krack Grenades can take one out. :cuss

 

Also consider you can get two AC Preds for the cost of one Vindi. OR a Baal Pred for 30 points cheaper.

 

My meta is probably way different from yours, so play, play play.

[Bartali]

AC/LC Preds all the way - they're better against transports and MCs. Vindies are certainly better against bunched up infantry, but then that's what the Assault Marines are for.

[Father Mapple]

Don't forget that Predators can be taken with just 1 weapon system to keep the army moving 12". I take 2 Lascannon Turret Predators, 1 Vindicator, and 2 Baals routinely because Baals scouting/outflanking (either split or on one side) and 3 AV13 going up the middle is a big spread of threats, and covers the advance of my jumpers, counter-assault, or other close ranged threats.

[Leonaides]

But not putting sponsons on a pred is a waste - You can move it 12" a turn and still shoot your main gun (or any one of the 3) if you really want, but it does give you so much more potential for those times when you just need to kill something. For the cost of that single-gun AV13 Pred, I can fit in 2-3 AV 11 Rhinos that will do a much better job of being an armoured wall to advance behind.

[Demoulius]

vindicators and baal predators. i use them both at the same time. insane firepower :blush:

[Father Mapple]

With just a Twin Linked lascannon turret a Predator is 115, and an autocannon for a lot less than that. Thats the same as a Baal Predator, which I think the difference in firepower is more than good for the points cost of being able to Scout/Outflank. And the cheapest way you can get a Rhino or a Razorback is by taking a 90 point unit, making the cost 140/145, which is more than even a Predator with Auto turret/Las sponsons, and the same cost as a Vindicator. If we're only looking for an AV wall, that's not a good cost.

 

None of the fast vehicles are going to be hit near as often moving 12 inches each turn which considerably raises their survivability from assaults. Also, moving 12" each turn means you can stay away from everyones' assaults except Dark Eldar and jump infantry. The threat of my own jump infantry or counter-charge should keep them away.

 

And in shooting, which is what really matters the first 2 rounds while the jumpers get there, the AV13 is a huge bonus over the AV11. S5 shooting will stun AV11 meaning it won't keep up. And smoke only helps 50% of the time, which would help AV13 even more. Against S7 or S8, which is more common than S5 (because besides heavy flamers, I can't think of many guns S5 actually) AV11 is glanced/penetrated on 4+/5+ with S7 3+/4+ with S8, versus AV13 that is glanced/penetrated on 6+/-- with S7 and 5+/6+ with S8. It's literally 3 times better for S7, and 2.5 times better on S8. That means the jumpers get there in one piece.

[Zhukov]

Predators, because Vindicators suck in my opinion. Reasons:

 

-Vindicator has 1 weapon, meaning a weapon destroyed result will make him fairly useless.

-Vindicator has 1 weapon which is hull mounted, meaning an immobilized result will hurt a lot.

-Vindicator it's weapon range is 24", meaning you'll expose yourself to melta weaponry more often and you'll have hard times protecting your Av11 side armour.

-Single shot weapon, it's not really reliable.

-Cover saves means his Ap2 isn't as good as it should be, lack of Ap1 makes him not really efficient at taking out vehicles either (combined with the fact that he can only ever inflict 1 pen hit at best)

 

AC/LC Predator is almost superior on every front, including being cheaper, except against a few select targets.

 

I can see why people love the vindi for casual games though for several reasons.

 

 

Yeah you can use vindicators to act as a wall for Jumpers. Or you could of course just buy more Jumpers instead.

[Deus_Sanguinius]

I like the twin-linked lascannon turret for the Predator. Problem is of course to have only 1 weapon system. What a shame that the Annihilator is so expensive because I don't like the autocannon that much.

[Claws of Corax]

Just a few observations in response to some anti Vindicator comments.

 

-Vindicator has 1 weapon, meaning a weapon destroyed result will make him fairly useless.

Once the weapon is destroyed.. you still have a storm bolter (Not great but still there) furthermore I have wrecked a landraider after ramming with a weaponless vindi.. My opponent was shocked to say the least.

 

Cover saves means his Ap2 isn't as good as it should be,

I've heard rumors that in 6th ed successful cover saves against blasts will be rerolled to represent the blast destroying the cover and creating shrapnel... which will go in part to reduce this.

 

lack of Ap1 makes him not really efficient at taking out vehicles either (combined with the fact that he can only ever inflict 1 pen hit at best)

The weapon being ordnance allows an extra d6 be rolled for determining pen/glance and the higher chosen giving a higher chance to pen a vehicle than a lascannon

 

Ultimately the preference is yours to make.

 

Claws

[Saiisil]

Can't say I like 1 more then the other, they both have their place on the battle field, in fact I have 3 Vindicators and 3 Predators, and to expand 3 Whirlwinds and 1 Baal. The heavy support selections I run vary depending on the type of game I am playing, if I am bringing a Take All list then I will throw in the Predators if I am playing a pre-planned game, it depends on the game itself. I find Vindicators are better for a Siege style game while the Predators are better for a Hit & Run style.

[JamesI]

Cover saves means his Ap2 isn't as good as it should be,

I've heard rumors that in 6th ed successful cover saves against blasts will be rerolled to represent the blast destroying the cover and creating shrapnel... which will go in part to reduce this.

 

This may be accurate (who knows what 6th will look like) but in 5th edition cover is the big drawback to basically any non-template gun. It is the main concern for my Vindicators.

[Zhukov]

Once the weapon is destroyed.. you still have a storm bolter (Not great but still there) furthermore I have wrecked a landraider after ramming with a weaponless vindi.. My opponent was shocked to say the least.

Which is why I say fairly useless and not useless. Of course it can also block LoS, blocking enemy units, contesting and things like that; but in the end all of that is not what you spend a Heavy Support slot and 150 points on...

 

I've heard rumors that in 6th ed successful cover saves against blasts will be rerolled to represent the blast destroying the cover and creating shrapnel... which will go in part to reduce this.

Maybe the Vindi will be better in 6th indeed, but as we're playing in 5th atm this is pretty irrelevant for this discussion I think.

 

The weapon being ordnance allows an extra d6 be rolled for determining pen/glance and the higher chosen giving a higher chance to pen a vehicle than a lascannon

Yes, but I said only 1 pen hit at best and even for that it's pretty unreliable giving the fact that he's not that accurate. Single shot Non-Ap1 shots are simply not good enough for Anti-tank duty, not at the price-tag the Vindi has.

 

Ultimately the preference is yours to make.

Obviously. But most people choosing a Vindicator don't do it for logical reasons... cause a Vindi simply hasn't got much going for it. The people who choose it often fight against the same persons all the time who tend to field things like TWC/Nob Bikers/Paladins/Land Raiders/Monoliths/etc etc, which the Vindicator excells against. For allcomers lists the Vindi just isn't a good choice I'm afraid.

 

At least that's my experience after having seen at least 30 Vindicator discussions over the years, the ones saying it's good are often the more casual players. (nothing wrong with that ofc!)

[Warbringer]

I like this thread i think its totally situational which people have already said.

 

I think if you could build your list specifically for a battle vs someone you can pick the one the best but in an all comers its best to pic which you like best and which works for you.

 

The only thing that worries me about the vindicator is 1 weapon destroyed and its a blocking option.

[Zhukov]

1 more thing I forgot about: The scatter possiblity of the Vindicator makes him less desirable to use in agressive lists too, as you'll be running out of targets pretty soon due to the risk of hitting your own units...

[Milosh]

I actually like both vehicles and plan on owning 3 of each. I have a friend who started and completed a Lamenters army and he uses 2 Auto/Las predators and 1 vindicator. I personally use 2 Auto/las predators and a stormraven. Eventually, I'll be experimenting with 2 - 3 vindicators. However, which ever vehicle you choose I would suggest taking them in a pair. Both have there merits, you just need to pick the vehicle which will compensate for your armies weakness. Do you need help dealing with paladins and nob bikers or require long range anti-tank/monstrous creature support?

[knife&fork]

Yes, but I said only 1 pen hit at best and even for that it's pretty unreliable giving the fact that he's not that accurate. Single shot Non-Ap1 shots are simply not good enough for Anti-tank duty, not at the price-tag the Vindi has.

 

All valid points otherwise but this part is incorrect. The BS4 demolisher cannon is actually the best tank buster in the codex after half range melta vs AV12 and up (assuming rhino sized hull or larger). Better than both TL lascannon and assault cannon.