Terra invasion question

[kujwa]

Why didn't all the traitor primarchs join horus when he made his final attack?

 

and what are some other important battles that we can look forward to in the HH series? i saw the sigma prime and just recently read what the significance of that is.

[Watch-commander Albus]

Why didn't all the traitor primarchs join horus when he made his final attack?

 

and what are some other important battles that we can look forward to in the HH series? i saw the sigma prime and just recently read what the significance of that is.

 

The Word Bearers were assaulting the Ultramarines at Calt end the Alpha Legion were stalling the Space Wolves and the White Scars.

 

You can expect books about the great battles at Signus Prime (Blood Angels against demons, first wounding of Sanguinius and first signs of the Black Rage), an enormous tank battle at Tallarn with the White Scars involved and the battle of Calt (Ultramarines vs. Word Bearers).

[Brother Dakath]

Actually, I'm not sure who was at the Siege of Terra and who wasn't other then I believe Horus, Angron, and Fulgrim were well accounted for. Horus for obvious reasons, Angron because he delivered the "Surrender or Die" offer to Sanguinius on the battlements of the palace and Fulgrim because if I recall correctly, he led the Emperor's children off to butcher the populace of Terra instead of taking part of the siege.

 

Also, fights to look forward to:

 

The Big E vs Horus (Obviously)

Sanguinius vs the big ol' Bloodthirster at the Gates (don't remember the daemons name)

 

I can't think of more then that, unless your count Sigismund seeking out and chopping a lot of the traitor's champions and what not.

[KhorneOnACob]

If I remember correctly, Mortarion and his Death Guard were trapped in a massive warp storm on their way to the siege, and they missed most if not all of it.

Magnus and the Thousand Sons were on their Daemon World after the attack from the Space Wolves at Prospero.

I believe Perturabo and the Iron Warriors helped destroy Rogal Dorn's defences at the Imperial Palace.

As for the others that haven't already been answered, I have no idea. :D

[Coryphaus 101]

I'm pretty sure Horus, Angron, Mortarion, Fulgrim, Magnus, Pertuabio and maybe Lorgar were there. Lorgar wasn't actually at Calth, he sent Kor Phaeron to do that so I'm pretty sure he was there.

 

Alpha Legion were stalling the Loyalist legions (or were they) and I think Night Lords were on Nostramo.

[Night Talon]

The Night lords where in the galactic east and began genocidal campaign, which was probably design to stop any support from this area reaching Terra

 

as for the rest i think they where all fighting Loyalist some where apart from Horus and Angron i think

[Nikt208]

I believe all the traitor primarchs (barring maybe Alpharius/Omegon) were at Terra.

 

Horus: Obviously!

Angron: As mentioned he offers Sanguiniuis the ultimatum, and lets face it the World Eaters aren't going to miss the biggest intergalactic punch-up!

Perturabo: He brings down the Palace walls (revenge for Dorn saying he could never do it!), there is no way Horus could breach it without him.

Fulgrim: He went off slaughtering and enslaving the Terran populace.

Lorgar: He and I believe over half of the Word Bearers (with millions of cultists and daemons) were at Terra. I know for sure the Warmonger a.k.a Sor Talgron (34th host) and Argel Tal were there. By the time of the Heresy the Word Bearers numbered 150,000, and half that number went with Kor Phaeron to Calth.

Konrad Kurze: We know from Void Stalker that they were there as well, I'm guessing the Night Haunter was also present to lead them. Nostramo's purge happens after Terra en route back to Tsagualsa.

Mortarion: The Death Guard were most definitely there, they appeared out the warp as complete mutants and brought all Nurgle's daemons with them. I believe they were the last to leave Terra, as they methodically extracted themselves with a fighting retreat.

Magnus: I think they are also present, teleporting in from the Planet of Sorcerers. We know Magnus can move around more easily now that he has shed his mortal coil, but I'm not sure about the Thousand Suns.

Alpharius/Omegon: Who knows!!

 

As for battles, we know there is Signus Prime, Calth, Tallarn (Iron Warriors and Iron Hands/Imperial Guard), and Night Lords vs Dark Angels. However that being said there are seven years between Istvaan and Terra, so there will be many battles and unexpected events to come. We know Lorgar and Angron skip off to the Calth system together as is mentioned in Aurelian (whether they take part or not is unknown but they do cross paths with the Ultras). Space Wolves link up with the White Scars and fight Alpha Legion but that happens closer to the time of Terra, so what were they doing before hand? In Deliverence Lost we see Raven Guard engaging Word Bearers and Alpha Legion. We dont even know what happens to Salamanders and Iron Hands, but from what I can tell from my conversations with the authors, they are still in the game. Iron warriors must be up to more than Tallarn, and I'm sure Horus and his Wolves will be wrecking havoc against some legions (we have seen them engage Iron Hands and White Scars). Finally, I dont think the Death Guard were in the warp for seven years, there will be more to that story! Fun and games to come, expect twists and turns.

[Týr]

I belive we can take all the old fluff about the siege of Terra and hide it away for a while.

I hope, and have a feeling, that when the authors are going to write the battle, will be changing everything we thought we knew around.

Hopefully the siege will be rewritten, only keeping few key events (battle on the Vengeful Spirit in the end). As the fluff is now, the siege stand as one of the weakest part in the saga in my opinion. Compared to the series so far, and what is has achived, they need to do something unique to lift the final battle from the weak fluff it resides in, to the standards the Horus Heresy series have achived.

 

It would make sense for example, to see loyalists considering surrender/deflecting to Horus' side, in order to save humanity from utter destruction, and hence prove their complete loyalty (alpha legion style). Something that have never been seen or considered, in the fluff as it is now.

 

It makes sense, that the fluff about the siege we have, are all represantatives from the 40k written about 30k. And therfore would be very deficient.

[Grimdarkness]

Mortarion: The Death Guard were most definitely there, they appeared out the warp as complete mutants and brought all Nurgle's daemons with them. I believe they were the last to leave Terra, as they methodically extracted themselves with a fighting retreat.

 

The IA says IIRC the death guard where on there way to terra when typhon/typhus showed his true colours and the legion got stuck in the warp.

since time moves weirdly in the warp they could have been in there for seven years. That was way the death guard ranked seconed to the thousand sons when it comes to whose turning sucked the most mortarion damned his legion to save it.

[Nikt208]

Mortarion: The Death Guard were most definitely there, they appeared out the warp as complete mutants and brought all Nurgle's daemons with them. I believe they were the last to leave Terra, as they methodically extracted themselves with a fighting retreat.

 

The IA says IIRC the death guard where on there way to terra when typhon/typhus showed his true colours and the legion got stuck in the warp.

since time moves weirdly in the warp they could have been in there for seven years. That was way the death guard ranked seconed to the thousand sons when it comes to whose turning sucked the most mortarion damned his legion to save it.

 

 

True, but from a story point of view I think that would suck. I would love to see the DG have a bigger role than that. When you think about it though, Horus wouldn't have sent sent them straight to Terra anyway, so if they got stuck in the warp for seven years they would most likely drop out at the destination he had planned for them straight after Istvaan. I think we will see the DG wreaking havoc for a few years then getting stuck in the warp for the 1-2yrs running up to Terra.

[Iron Lord]

Collected Visions does make heavy use of the old Siege of Terra fluff- it would be surprising if they make huge changes to that.

[Týr]

Collected Visions does make heavy use of the old Siege of Terra fluff- it would be surprising if they make huge changes to that.

 

I really hope they do change it. As you say it's old, and I don't think it matches the Heresy fluff from the books, we have grown used to these recent years.

[Iron Lord]

It could be stretched out to fill a novel or so- extra scenes, existing scenes being "fleshed out" etc.

 

But I'd like stuff to be kept- Khârn's "death" after breaching the walls, the Sky Fortress, Sanguinius vs the Bloodthirster, and so on.

[Olis]

Collected Visions does make heavy use of the old Siege of Terra fluff- it would be surprising if they make huge changes to that.

 

I really hope they do change it. As you say it's old, and I don't think it matches the Heresy fluff from the books, we have grown used to these recent years.

 

Doesn't match? How so? It can only not match if an alternative version of events is written. :)

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Collected Visions does make heavy use of the old Siege of Terra fluff- it would be surprising if they make huge changes to that.

 

I really hope they do change it. As you say it's old, and I don't think it matches the Heresy fluff from the books, we have grown used to these recent years.

 

Doesn't match? How so? It can only not match if an alternative version of events is written. ;)

 

A lot of the detail and specific story stuff from the HH novels is drawn from the CV, after all. Look at the Kaban Machine from Mechanicum. That whole thing was only tangentially involved in the novel's story, but the Kaban's short story from CV was pulled into the novel for the sake of completeness and (presumably) to add a little extra depth and action to the novel.

[Týr]

Collected Visions does make heavy use of the old Siege of Terra fluff- it would be surprising if they make huge changes to that.

 

I really hope they do change it. As you say it's old, and I don't think it matches the Heresy fluff from the books, we have grown used to these recent years.

 

Doesn't match? How so? It can only not match if an alternative version of events is written. ;)

 

I can see I was not so clear in that.

What i mean by not matching is, that I feel all the fluff about the siege is not very detailed, and quite muddy. Many events in the 30k lore aren't detailed that much, but the books change that once they get another event covered. One exapmle of what I mean is, the burning of Prospero. It was stated that Constantin Valdor cut off Bjorns arm in old fluff. In Prospero Burns we learn the real deal behind that missing arm. That part was rewritten clearly, and i like the new version from Prospero Burns better.

[Olis]

Fair enough. ;)

[Marshal Angman]

Unless it's been added in the HH series (I'll admit I've not read all of them), the White Scars didnt link up with the SW's to fight the AL. Jaghatai wanted to help Russ out, as he was his closest brother, but in the end returned to Terra as Dorn begged him to. The only reference I've ever found that links the WS & AL fighting in the HH was a short line in the Alpha Legions IA, where as the WS's one doesn't make a single mention of it. I wouldn't assume that the AL were holding up the White Scars unless its specifically mentioned. And if it has, then I'm sorry.

 

Also, werent the death guard in the midst of the fighting at the seige, they tried to retake the lions gate space port from the White Scars. I seem to recall that though they were stalled in the warp for a bit, they still got to terra, just all nurgled up

[G3rman]

I doubt Alpharius would get involved, it has been described in the books that he was partly allied Horus but was mostly independent. Its impossible to know how he prioritized his targets and just how much damage he and his legion actually did to the Imperium, as if his mentality was to save humanity, he wouldn't want to go destroying forge worlds and killing soldiers/marines callously.

 

Magnus also was not involved as his legion was still consolidating itself after its losses on Prospero and wasn't totally dedicated to the war against the IoM. They may have felt wronged yes, but they did not trust Horus or the other legions anymore than the IoM.

 

Otherwise I would say the rest of them had some sort of presence on Terra; just goes to show how well the defenders fought and stood against these tides for so long.

[Billuriye]

I know that Emperor vs Horus scene will definitely change. No more Emperor holding back because he loved his Horus so dearly but more of a calculated movement.

[Legatus]

Lorgar: He and I believe over half of the Word Bearers (with millions of cultists and daemons) were at Terra. I know for sure the Warmonger a.k.a Sor Talgron (34th host) and Argel Tal were there. By the time of the Heresy the Word Bearers numbered 150,000, and half that number went with Kor Phaeron to Calth.

I was going to say that while the Index Astartes of the Word Bearers does not mention Lorgar's involvement he is described as being at Ultramar in the Collected Visions book, but then I double checked the Index Astartes article just to make sure, and it turns out Lorgar is actually described as being at Ultramar in there as well.

 

Index Astartes Word Bearers:

"When the Heresy erupted and the shackles of loyalty were cast off, the Word Bearers set upon the Sons of Ultramar with unbridled hatred. The Ultramarines were initially stunned, and Lorgar was able to push them back to Ultramar, the region of space that the Ultramarines govern and defend. It was upon the world of Calth that the final battle would take place. (...)

When the Word Bearers launched their attack against the Ultramarines, the strike against Calth was led by one of Lorgar's greatest champions, the former Master of Faith, Kor Phaeron."

 

Collected Visions:

"The Word Bearers launched their surprise attack against the Ultramarines. Lorgar personally commanded his fleet of warships, whilst his most trusted lieutenants were tasked with making the first strike against the planet of Calth.

From the battle barge Infidus Imperator, Lorgar's greatest Champion, Kor Phaeron, launched a full-scaler invasion of the Calth System. Supporting him was the archfiend Erebus, foremost Dark Apostle of the Word Bearers."

 

So, in both accounts Lorgar is actually in command of the Word Bearer's overall efforts in the attack of Ultramar, while Kor Phaeron is specifically in command of the invasion of Calth. But from the few bits I have picked up so far it seems BL is going to retcon Lorgar out of this battle...

[Coryphaus 101]

Yeah, it appears that's been retconned. In fact, it didn't make sense to start with. Lorgar was at Istvaan which would have been impossible if he was at Ultramar as the battle had started by then, IIRC it started before Istvaan III. Maybe it's a good thing if that fluff gets retconned.

[A D-B]

Lorgar: He and I believe over half of the Word Bearers (with millions of cultists and daemons) were at Terra. I know for sure the Warmonger a.k.a Sor Talgron (34th host) and Argel Tal were there. By the time of the Heresy the Word Bearers numbered 150,000, and half that number went with Kor Phaeron to Calth.

I was going to say that while the Index Astartes of the Word Bearers does not mention Lorgar's involvement he is described as being at Ultramar in the Collected Visions book, but then I double checked the Index Astartes article just to make sure, and it turns out Lorgar is actually described as being at Ultramar in there as well.

 

Index Astartes Word Bearers:

"When the Heresy erupted and the shackles of loyalty were cast off, the Word Bearers set upon the Sons of Ultramar with unbridled hatred. The Ultramarines were initially stunned, and Lorgar was able to push them back to Ultramar, the region of space that the Ultramarines govern and defend. It was upon the world of Calth that the final battle would take place. (...)

When the Word Bearers launched their attack against the Ultramarines, the strike against Calth was led by one of Lorgar's greatest champions, the former Master of Faith, Kor Phaeron."

 

Collected Visions:

"The Word Bearers launched their surprise attack against the Ultramarines. Lorgar personally commanded his fleet of warships, whilst his most trusted lieutenants were tasked with making the first strike against the planet of Calth.

From the battle barge Infidus Imperator, Lorgar's greatest Champion, Kor Phaeron, launched a full-scaler invasion of the Calth System. Supporting him was the archfiend Erebus, foremost Dark Apostle of the Word Bearers."

 

So, in both accounts Lorgar is actually in command of the Word Bearer's overall efforts in the attack of Ultramar, while Kor Phaeron is specifically in command of the invasion of Calth. But from the few bits I have picked up so far it seems BL is going to retcon Lorgar out of this battle...

 

Naw. There are a few changes and a lot of new detail, but pretty much everything in those quotes still applies (word for word, as it happens).

[bjornsval]

Well I am going to say that none of the traitor primarchs were at Terra. They were all Alpha legionnaires impersonnating the primarchs.Actually come to think of it,the whole heresy was caused by the Alpha Legion.Look at how easy it is for them to infiltrate a legion " Raven Guard". How hard would it be for Alpharius to play dress up as his brothers and lead them to the path of treason. :)

[A D-B]

Speaking of changes, there's always going to have to be some. It comes down to perspective, both in realising where it'd necessary, and thinking through any objections. I love to stick to canon as much as possible, but just because something is old doesn't automatically mean it's good, or worthy of blindly following.

 

Firstly, a lot of this stuff has, so far, been little more than a couple of sentences thrown together as the vague background for a board game over a decade ago, and written by people with next to no writing experience. To turn it into something with a great deal more detail that makes sense and ties in with the plots established in a bunch of other storylines (old and new), means that there's going to have to be changes, extrapolations, and working out how to interpret the old lore.

 

And add that into the IP's overriding background decision to show much more of the Heresy, especially the seven years that has previously been ignored or glossed over (and to cover Legions and factions that previously had nothing to do in the Heresy), and you've got a recipe for a lot of changes in amongst all the new stuff. It has to happen.

 

And add all of that to the fact that sometimes Author X intends to do Y, which then has knock-on effects to other authors in the series.