merak1984 Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 In order to determine if a vehicle is given a cover save by obscurity. 1. Determine if 50% or more of the vehicles facing being targeted is hidden by intervening terrain or models. Pg. 62 BRB-At least 50% of the facing of the vehicle that is being targeted (i.e. its front, side or rear) needs to be hidden by intervening terrain or modles from the point of view of the firer for the vehicle to claim to be in cover. If this is the case, the vehicle is said to be obscured (or "hull down"). If a squad is firing at a vehicle, the vehicle is obscured only if it is 50% hidden from the majority of the firing models (do not count models that cannot hurt the vehicle). Just like with units of several models. Remember, you can draw line of sight through windows as per. PG. 16 BRB "Line of sight literally represents your warriors' view of the enemy - the must be able to see their foe through, under or over the tangle of terrain and other fighters on the battlefield." 2. Refer to PG. 21 BRB for the different types of terrain cover save values 3. If you're not sure whether the vehicle is 50% in cover or not, simply modify its save by -1. Or if players cannot agree, modify its save by -1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 In order to determine if a vehicle is given a cover save by obscurity. 1. Determine if 50% or more of the vehicles facing being targeted is hidden by intervening terrain or models. Pg. 62 BRB-At least 50% of the facing of the vehicle that is being targeted (i.e. its front, side or rear) needs to be hidden by intervening terrain or modles from the point of view of the firer for the vehicle to claim to be in cover. If this is the case, the vehicle is said to be obscured (or "hull down"). If a squad is firing at a vehicle, the vehicle is obscured only if it is 50% hidden from the majority of the firing models (do not count models that cannot hurt the vehicle). Just like with units of several models. Remember, you can draw line of sight through windows as per. PG. 16 BRB "Line of sight literally represents your warriors' view of the enemy - the must be able to see their foe through, under or over the tangle of terrain and other fighters on the battlefield." 2. Refer to PG. 21 BRB for the different types of terrain cover save values 3. If you're not sure whether the vehicle is 50% in cover or not, simply modify its save by -1. Or if players cannot agree, modify its save by -1. Incorrect on several counts, but the one most people will disagree with is #2. The rules state that a vehicle which is obscured by terrain gets a 4+ cover save (5+ if it is unclear if it gets the save). It never gets the cover save value listed in the table on page 21, which is for infantry models. So a vehicle will never get a 5+ due to being behind a fence or a 6+ for being obscured by Razor Wire. If the model is Obscured by terrain it gets a 4+, regardless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 Really? I would have sworn it uses the save of the cover it's behind... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 Hmm, actually you are correct. I guess I'm thinking in terms of a local House Rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merak1984 Posted November 22, 2011 Author Share Posted November 22, 2011 I'm talking about pure official BRB canon here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isiah Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 what's your question merak1984? There is no official rules problem here is there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merak1984 Posted November 22, 2011 Author Share Posted November 22, 2011 Is this the correct way to do it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isiah Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 If that's how it is written in the BRB then I guess so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merak1984 Posted November 26, 2011 Author Share Posted November 26, 2011 So then let's apply this thread to the thread http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=242264 and see what we get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted November 26, 2011 Share Posted November 26, 2011 Um...that's what we did the first time, coming to the conclusions that we did. There's no need to repeat the thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merak1984 Posted November 26, 2011 Author Share Posted November 26, 2011 I thought I might have summarized the REAL order of operations for those that didn't understand it in the other thread, so answers would have been different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted November 26, 2011 Share Posted November 26, 2011 I thought I might have summarized the REAL order of operations for those that didn't understand it in the other thread, so answers would have been different. We all understand the basic mechanics involved, merak. Just some of us disagree with you on interpretions of some of the finer points of definitions and some of us disagree with you on the math of the situation. Starting a new debate thread and putting your finger on the scales to tip it your way is hardly good debate technique. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty the Pyro Posted November 26, 2011 Share Posted November 26, 2011 "Just like with units of several models." This is missued in the above. The quote from the brb is "Just like with units of several models, if your not sure if a vehicle is 50% in cover, just modify the save by -1". This is important because the way you have it it seams to be referencing " If a squad is firing at a vehicle, the vehicle is obscured only if it is 50% hidden from the majority of the firing models (do not count models that cannot hurt the vehicle" Which it is NOT correct, as that is not the same as when targeting non vehicle units. With non vehicles units the majority must have clear shots to deny the save, with vehicles the majority must have oscured shots to give the save. This is important because half the relivant models have clear shots, and half obscured shots, infantry targets get the cover save, vehicle targets do not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merak1984 Posted November 26, 2011 Author Share Posted November 26, 2011 This is important because the way you have it it seams to be referencing "If a squad is firing at a vehicle, the vehicle is obscured only if it is 50% hidden from the majority of the firing models (do not count models that cannot hurt the vehicle" Which it is NOT correct, as that is not the same as when targeting non vehicle units. With non vehicles units the majority must have clear shots to deny the save, with vehicles the majority must have oscured shots to give the save. This is important because half the relivant models have clear shots, and half obscured shots, infantry targets get the cover save, vehicle targets do not. Please pay attention to the title of the thread. Vehicle Cover Saves Order of Operations. So, yes, my statement is correct. I'm not debating infantry cover saves, as they're straightforward. And @Dswanick I'm not tipping the scale, I created an unbiased, non-house rule, and easy to interpret way of thinking about cover saves for vehicles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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