Is the current codex only allowing cookie-cutters?

[dendrofil]

(Pre-apologies for potentially starting another thread on an old, dead and burried topic.)

 

I might as well introduce myself since I'm new to the current iteration of the Codex Chaos, I've been playing 40k for a good 15-16 years and the last few years I've been dreaming of creating an army in Malal's image (yup, I know of hushrong's excellent "Labyrinth" thread" already).

After playing my Blood Angels since 40k2 and owning an old Necron army, a Tau army and a whole bunch of Eldar thingies, I finally found some time between work, my family and everything else that needs doing, to start my Sons of Malice-army.

 

Now to the real issue, even though I probably won't play too many games with them , I still want the army to be playable when I do so I surfed the best source of SM-knowledge there is on the interwebz (i.e. B&C) to find some things to put in my list and people's reflections about our options.

 

What I found was that the current edition doesn't really allow for much tweaking and different ways. Of course some combo's are always stronger than others, but are things like Terminators, Thousand Sons and Defilers more or less dead and out of the picture?

 

Obviously the codex is very lackluster in the choices both for units and equipment, but are the coolest things available (in my opinion) so bad on the gaming board that there is no real point in fielding them other than for the look and fluff?

 

 

Are there a lot of players out there using more or less the same kinds of lists with the lash-prince and such, or is it just my brain filtering it all in a very wrong way?

[Shuggnuggath]

Well the good news is that the current chaos codex probably wont be around for very much longer.

 

The problem is see with the current codex is that some units are just not worth taking.

 

If you ripped the fast attack and elites sections out of the book entirely you wouldn't be missing out on anything.

 

Thousand sons would be vastly improved if their inferno bolts ignored both armour and cover (which would make sense imo).

[the jeske]

lets take a look at some of the choice you can take with maybe more explenation [but those were already done years ago when the dex was leaked and then made again for 5th ed , but nevermind].

 

HQs

now we use DPs . why? said too many times . Question is why dont we use the other stuff? simple .

A lord or sorc what does he give us . Is he better in HtH ? no . no eternal, forcing the use of land raiders or using zerkers/pms [sucks for undivided players] because he wont fit in to a rhino with 10 dudes , no more meq killed then a lord , giving fewer targets for your enemy to shot at means fewer make it in to short range/assault where our list are suppose to be. They are not good at shoting . psychic powers are not reliable enough [+most are not very good] and the tzeench demon weapon is not realy worth it , a lord like that would have to be run along side oblits or another shoty unit .

they dont buff our army like some other meq do . Now if lords/sorc were like that and cost less [as uber DP costs a lot lord/sorc are cheap] it would be an option , only they dont . lords costs like DPs and sorc can cost more 0_0 . if the sorc had a hood maybe people would use him even such a high cost , but of course he doesnt even have that .

stuff like self wounding demon weapons[specialy khorn] and stuning yourself[deadly for hth only HQs without EW] , mounts that make the lord worse [or do nothing if you go undivided] doesnt help to make lords/sorc good either. ah low inv. A lord is like a sm cpt with SS and blade . only the cpt wont wound/stun himself has a +3inv and can make your bike troops. And let us remember this , sm players dont use those cpt so offten because they arent good enough . So lords are worse then units that arent good enough for other armies . that is bad.

 

then there is the specials . same problem as our normal HQs . no eternal [save for abadon] , no buffing[save for bile] , high cost for not enough kill power [and killing is all they can do . as they dont buff armies] . tyfus costs too much for what he does , lucius is plain bad [no demon weapon , his armor wont work because he will be killed by fists at i1and dead models dont use their gear], bile is such a huge tax to make your csm better that when one compares him to other models that do the same [belial , crow, khan etc] it realy shows how overcosted he is [+again bad in hth for a unit that can only do hth . sucks a bit at least next dex he will give FnP to the unit he joins] . Khârn is nice and cheap , but without wings and EW he is a buffed up lord . And of course there is abadon . MR I cost like a LR and need a LR to move around +bodyguard[but only fearless one] . He is draigo without making chaos termis scoring , without giving d3 unit buffs [that is of course unless he rolls a 1].

 

 

troops were covered a lot of times , maybe someone else will write about those . but I will show something that makes me lol each time .

 

6NM sonic blasters BM . 185pts . 6xGK psyammo psycanon 150 .

 

 

 

 

FA.

 

raptors . csm with jump packs . all problem csm have [dead icons , can run from hth ,etc] and all the ones jump troops have[no transport to work as an ablative shield , force the use HQ to make the unit viable in hth . but unlike loyalist meq we dont get cheap priests/chaplains etc]. A bad unit that has to be buffed by another bad . bad combination . they can be used as a anti tank platform , but again rather high cost[termicid is cheaper and harder to counter] and pms in a rhino do the same thing only while being scoring .

 

Spawn . nothing to comment about

 

elite .

termis . good as termicid , not realy good as anything else . We dont get frags like loyalists do , we dont get SS , no way to buff the unit . our LR suck as transports for termis because they both have no machine spirit and are too small [4 termis+an HQ is a too smal hth unit].

they do anti tank and fire magnet , but oblits[on those later] for more then a turn and from a safer distance . generaly not taken if oblits are still to be taken .

 

chosen.

same .in hth set ups[something like a 8-10 power weapon fist on champ 2 melta in a rhino] cost too much and the same job can be done by zerkers or even csm . they can be shoty platforms [5 melta , 5plasma] but that does cost and again oblits do the same but from a safer range and are less random then outflanking chosen . If chaos had other long range support they would work if they cost 16pts per model . a 3xcsm AC/plas +2lord tzeench +2chosen 1x3oblits would be fun to play , but as they dont fit in to 1500 they dont . generaly if obltis can be taken they are better .

 

possessed.

too randm , on 1 no power . only hth so force to buy them a rhino but if movement powers are rolled they are wasted. zerkers do as good dps[as long as 6 isnt rolled] and are scoring.

l

ol I forgot the dread.

random . doesnt shot what you want to shot . doesnt assault what you want to assault . bad weapon load outs . the fact that it also can hurt your own models is just a bonus.

 

hvy support

overcosted preds . loyalists dont use them and theirs cost less

 

havocks .loyalist doesnt use their because theirs are overcosted . If ours could or had tank hunter the AC ones would be good , but of course they cant .

they can take specials , but for some extra points it is better to take chosen because of outflanking.

 

 

defilers

huger av12 walkers , no indirect fire . no cover . against gunline [razorspams , crowings , tau , necron , DE , GK , IG etc] dead , safest in hth . 6A but low WS so their kill ratio is random 50% hit means sometimes they do good sometimes they kill a gretchin a turn. technicly the base of our chaozilla list

 

LR

already covered when I wrote about terminators.

[dendrofil]

@shuggnuggath:

 

Yeah, that's exactly what I've spotted as well, some units don't fill any purpose other than just the fluff part.

 

@the jeske:

 

Whoa, nice write-up and clarification. Since I don't own the GK Codex I simply did not know of the (dis)similarities in rules and points cost when compared to them.

 

In other words, our codex is horribly broken at the moment, but was it ever any good? Even when first released? I remember the previous version had a lot more customization options both regarding wargear, chaos marks and units.

 

Your post makes me a bit sad, let's hope for the Chaos Legions-book to be released in a not-so-distant future then.

[Brother Nihm]

are things like Terminators, Thousand Sons and Defilers more or less dead and out of the picture?

Unless you take Terminators for Termicide, or Terminator flood, then they are more or less out due to their mechanics (no relentless, no fearless, icon bearer dies = they lose the bonus etc etc.). Thousand Sons are overcosted and AP3 isn't all that great when the strength is only 4, and the range is crap. Certainly not for that price tag. Defilers, while having good rules are only semi-competitive, mostly due to their physical size (i.e. you cannot hide/protect them) but also due to synergy issues. They are a fun unit at best.

 

In short, just as Jeske put it.

 

We do have a cookie cutter 'dex with very few options available, even more so if you are actually trying to stay true to fluff (e.g. TSons).. then you are handicapping yourself even further, something I detest more than anything.

[Shuggnuggath]

Hmmm, I reckon that since you want to do Sons of Malice who are renegades rather than Traitor Legions I would rather pick a loyalist codex for now.

 

Assuming you would prefer not to gimp your army for no reason.

[dendrofil]

Assuming you would prefer not to gimp your army for no reason.

 

That reason is reason enough. ;)

Instead of doing it like most others, using a loyalist codex and CSM models, I will use "loyalist looking" marines and play them using the CSM codex. :tu:

 

(As stated earlier, I don't think they will see much use on the battlefield until the next 40k edition is released anyway.)

 

 

Thanks for all the replies though, it seems that most people are rather tired of the current version of our codex. Understandably.