Power Hungry Monkey Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 While reading The Outcast Dead I noticed something that had somehow slipped past me all these years. At the first mention of the astartes as "the Angels of Death" and the Outcast Dead's responses to that title I got to thinking. When the Enperor first created the Legiones Astartes after the Wars of Unity in the hopes of spreading the Glory of Mankind across the galaxy and of teaching a secular Imperial Truth, why did he name two of these new Legions after myhtical/religious beings? The Blood Angels and the Dark Angles, even at the time of the Heresy, both draw on the image of Angels, beings that intrinsicly linked to myth and religion. The Emperor being, as some sources has indictaed, a near constant being throughout most of human existance, would know what Angels are and represent and what they link to. Why then in the quest to abolish religion and myth has he named two of his legions of warriors of the Imperial Truth after Angels? I know there are a few factors here. The major one being not even related to the current background of the 40k universe. At the creation of the Space Marine chapters (and I mean the game developers back in the 80s) they hadn't got the story of the 40k universe really figured out (and they're still tweeking and editing it even now). The names Blood Angles and Dark Angles are cool and would have been great sounding at the time for some super warriors in uber armour. There would have been no concept of what the names would become and what the eventual history of the Heresy would mean to those names. The idea of a Secular Imperium is not new but was never really explored up until the HH series. The Emperor denying his divinity and reprimanding Lorgar and the Word Bearers has been around since atleast 2nd ed. but thats really all we heard about it. The Emperor actively trying to wipe out all traces of divinty and religion within the burgeoning Imperium to protect against the powers within the Warp was kinda passed over until recent years. The Blood Angles and Dark Angles are a perfect fit for a adrk, gothic dystopian future. Their imagery and names draw off and inspire this gritty future with its near dark-age look on technology and religion but are totally opposed to those of the Crusade Era Imperium free from religions and gods. Another factor is that these names may have been changed/chosen by their respective Primarchs upon their reuinions with their Legions. There is definate president for this in the fluff with the Death Guard and World Eaters begining as the Dusk Raiders and War Hounds respectivly. There has been mention in previous fluff of the Primarchs each naming their Legions as they were granted command of them but no other 'previous names' have been given as yet. I discount here the name change from the Lunar Wolves to the Sons of Horus as this happened after Ullanor. Even if this were true and Johnson and Sanguinius chose to name their Legions the Dark Angles and the Blood Angels surely the Emperor would have vetoed this in light of the names being intrinsicly linked to religions of the past. Basically, to sum up what I'm trying to say, is 'why do two Legions bear very religious names (three if you count the Word Bearers) when the Emperor is striving to wipe reliong and myth from the galaxy?' or 'how are the fluff-writers gonna talk their way out of this one?' I'd like to know what people think on this. Thank you for reading my rant PHM Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242378-the-angels-of-death-in-a-secular-imperium/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azarias Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 The in-universe answer I'd give is that I think most of the legions were renamed upon rediscovering their primarchs. So it wasn't the Emperor who gave them the names we're familiar with. As to why he might object, well, secularism doesn't necessitate a lack of poetry. I can say that "Venus was a Roman Goddess of Love" without implying any sort of belief or credence. Ditto to naming something 'Jupiter's Thunder'. Plus, if you look at the etymology of the word 'angel' it comes from the Greek αγγελος (angelos, with a hard 'g'), meaning messenger. The term, when originally used, had no especially religious context (ο αγγελος εκβη τον οικον - the messenger left the house). Certainly Hermes could act as an angelos, but so could the guy two fields over. It's religious now because of two millenia of Christian context, but conceivable things might have changed in another thirty-eight millenia. So, my summary: poetry and etymology. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242378-the-angels-of-death-in-a-secular-imperium/#findComment-2930282 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Havokas Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 i agree with Azarias, in the year 30,000 why would angel still hold any religious sentiments at all. and in 40k the majority of their understanding of "older" things within human culture is very warped and inaccurate most of earth in 40k doesn't even know that there was a heresy battle on Terra... let alone that there were vast oceans on earth once and something called "religion" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242378-the-angels-of-death-in-a-secular-imperium/#findComment-2930317 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coryphaus 101 Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 Definitely the Dark Angels and maybe the Blood Angels were the original names. As Asarias said, there would be no reason for, in a secular universe, angel to have any religious meaning. It has probably returned to meaning simply messenger (Angels of Death = Messengers of Death). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242378-the-angels-of-death-in-a-secular-imperium/#findComment-2930498 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Týr Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 I agree with abve one hundred percent. Great answers. I would just like to add, that "Blood Angels" and "Dark Angels" are the low-gothic translation of the high-gothic. Think Blood Angels migt be called "angeli sanguine" and Dark Angels would be "Tenebrae angeli" (Beware of my limited Latin skills.., what I just wrote could mean cows mating!) And the legions could have their own names in their native launguage, like the Vlka Fenryka have their own. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242378-the-angels-of-death-in-a-secular-imperium/#findComment-2930500 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jehoel Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 As I remember it, Luthor is the one who gave the 1st Legion the name Dark Angels, a poetic name that fit what he probably saw them as. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242378-the-angels-of-death-in-a-secular-imperium/#findComment-2930541 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Semper Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 I thought it was the Lion... In the "Decent of Angels" @ Azarias: Good point! you Greek by any chance? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242378-the-angels-of-death-in-a-secular-imperium/#findComment-2930576 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazarine Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 I would also assume that Blood Angels is unlikely to be the orginal name for the legion, but later. Seems like too much of a coincidence that the angelic leader of 'The Blood' would end up in charge of a legion with a very similar name. I would assume something similar for the Iron Hands. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242378-the-angels-of-death-in-a-secular-imperium/#findComment-2930677 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azarias Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 @ Azarias: Good point! you Greek by any chance? Nope. Italian. I'm just a bit of a language nerd. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242378-the-angels-of-death-in-a-secular-imperium/#findComment-2930934 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Power Hungry Monkey Posted November 24, 2011 Author Share Posted November 24, 2011 Good feedback guys, thanks. Its a shame Azarius hit the nail on the head first off, I was hoping to promote more discussion. I honestly had no idea of the origens of Angel being from Greek or meaning messenger but as soon as I read that it made a whole lot of sense. Drefanus makes a good point and I do think I remember hearing somewhere that the Primarchs all named their Legions when they were reuinted with them. It would certainly fit for Legions like the Word Bearers, Iron Hands, Blood Angles, Salamanders, Space Wolves, Thousand Sons and Night Lords. There is just too much of the Primarchs' personalities and histories in those names not to be linked. Others like the Imperial Fists, Ultramarines, Raven Guard, Emerpor's Children and Alpha Legion have more generic names that don't necesarily link so strongly to their Primarchs. The third batch could go either way; Lunar Wolves, Iron Warriors, White Scars and Dark Angles. These have enough in common with the Primarchs to have been 'new' names but are also generic enough to have been an original name. The World Eaters and Death Guard we already know to definatly have had previous names (as mentioned before). I seem to have gone a bit off tpoic now (but the original one was swiftly corrected). Does anyone know of any mention of other previous Legion names? I have the feeling the Lunar Wolves would have had a different name as 'Luprecal' is too much of a coincidence to be giffted a Legion of Wolves. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242378-the-angels-of-death-in-a-secular-imperium/#findComment-2930941 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coryphaus 101 Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 Thousands Sons have always been the Thousand Sons (I just read that but on A Thousand Sons) and I'm pretty sure the Ultramarines were renamed by Guilliman. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242378-the-angels-of-death-in-a-secular-imperium/#findComment-2931164 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 Word Bearers = Imperial Heralds Death Guard = Dusk Raiders World Eaters = War Hounds Thousand Sons were always that name and Fulgrim renamed his legion The Emperor's Children, though their previous name is unknown. I've heard that the Dark Angels were previously known as The First, but don't know if that was an official name or whether they simply were the first legion born. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242378-the-angels-of-death-in-a-secular-imperium/#findComment-2932371 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eerie Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 If I remember correctly from the novel, the Thousand Sons named themselves, and it was more of a nickname because they were so few and were in search of their father. They referred to themselves as the Thousand Sons, but it was not their official title. When Magnus was discovered he simply stick with it. I imagine the entire naming procedure could be something that only entered official Imperial lore when the primarchs came. The Emperor himself, prior to the discovery of the primarchs, may very well have simply referred to the legions by their numbers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242378-the-angels-of-death-in-a-secular-imperium/#findComment-2932497 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Payton Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 I don't think it really makes a difference - it is just a word. I am an atheist, and it doesn't bother me using phrases from the KJV Bible (of which there are hundreds)). I don't believe in the Greek pantheon either, and I still say Achilles' Heel. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242378-the-angels-of-death-in-a-secular-imperium/#findComment-2932516 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coryphaus 101 Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 If I remember correctly from the novel, the Thousand Sons named themselves, and it was more of a nickname because they were so few and were in search of their father. They referred to themselves as the Thousand Sons, but it was not their official title. When Magnus was discovered he simply stick with it. I imagine the entire naming procedure could be something that only entered official Imperial lore when the primarchs came. The Emperor himself, prior to the discovery of the primarchs, may very well have simply referred to the legions by their numbers. Here's the part of the book we're talking about: (this just after Ahriman says there were only a thousand survivors of the flesh change and so they were literally the Thousand Sons) Lemuel frowned and said, “Wait, that doesn’t make sense. You were known as the Thousand Sons before you reached Prospero, yes?”“Yes.” And then Lemuel talking about how it's just a stupendous coincidence that were only a thousand survivors of the Flesh Change and Ahriman says there's no such thing as coincidence. Trust me, I read that bit not that long ago. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242378-the-angels-of-death-in-a-secular-imperium/#findComment-2932568 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimdarkness Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 As I remember it, Luthor is the one who gave the 1st Legion the name Dark Angels, a poetic name that fit what he probably saw them as. If you trust lexicanum he did. Proof. Interesting that the dark angles naming seems very familiar to what angels are supposed to be today. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242378-the-angels-of-death-in-a-secular-imperium/#findComment-2932750 Share on other sites More sharing options...
malika666 Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 Is it just me or did the Horus Heresy authors kind of confused the terms "secularism" and "antitheism"? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242378-the-angels-of-death-in-a-secular-imperium/#findComment-2935382 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azarias Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 Is it just me or did the Horus Heresy authors kind of confused the terms "secularism" and "antitheism"? Oh snap! Seriously, though, that's a fantastic point. Or maybe it's just one more example of the arrogance of the Imperium that Horus is rebelling against... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242378-the-angels-of-death-in-a-secular-imperium/#findComment-2935554 Share on other sites More sharing options...
malika666 Posted December 3, 2011 Share Posted December 3, 2011 Is it just me or did the Horus Heresy authors kind of confused the terms "secularism" and "antitheism"? Oh snap! Seriously, though, that's a fantastic point. Or maybe it's just one more example of the arrogance of the Imperium that Horus is rebelling against... Sounds to me as if the Emperor kind of forgot the meaning of secularism. He doesn't seem to argue for a separation of church and state but more for the entire removal of religion/spirituality. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242378-the-angels-of-death-in-a-secular-imperium/#findComment-2936390 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Payton Posted December 3, 2011 Share Posted December 3, 2011 Is it just me or did the Horus Heresy authors kind of confused the terms "secularism" and "antitheism"? Oh snap! Seriously, though, that's a fantastic point. Or maybe it's just one more example of the arrogance of the Imperium that Horus is rebelling against... Sounds to me as if the Emperor kind of forgot the meaning of secularism. He doesn't seem to argue for a separation of church and state but more for the entire removal of religion/spirituality. The irony is that the Imperial way of rule (even pre-Heresy) is a religion in itself. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242378-the-angels-of-death-in-a-secular-imperium/#findComment-2936410 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coryphaus 101 Posted December 3, 2011 Share Posted December 3, 2011 Is it just me or did the Horus Heresy authors kind of confused the terms "secularism" and "antitheism"? Oh snap! Seriously, though, that's a fantastic point. Or maybe it's just one more example of the arrogance of the Imperium that Horus is rebelling against... Sounds to me as if the Emperor kind of forgot the meaning of secularism. He doesn't seem to argue for a separation of church and state but more for the entire removal of religion/spirituality. The irony is that the Imperial way of rule (even pre-Heresy) is a religion in itself. Everything is a religion in itself. EVERYTHING!!! (seriously, if you believe in something it could be classified your religion) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242378-the-angels-of-death-in-a-secular-imperium/#findComment-2936472 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Týr Posted December 3, 2011 Share Posted December 3, 2011 Is it just me or did the Horus Heresy authors kind of confused the terms "secularism" and "antitheism"? Oh snap! Seriously, though, that's a fantastic point. Or maybe it's just one more example of the arrogance of the Imperium that Horus is rebelling against... Sounds to me as if the Emperor kind of forgot the meaning of secularism. He doesn't seem to argue for a separation of church and state but more for the entire removal of religion/spirituality. The irony is that the Imperial way of rule (even pre-Heresy) is a religion in itself. Everything is a religion in itself. EVERYTHING!!! (seriously, if you believe in something it could be classified your religion) Science has nothing to do with religion. There are no belif in science. Only the acceptance of what fact tell you about the world, and the theories based upon these facts to predict events. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242378-the-angels-of-death-in-a-secular-imperium/#findComment-2936545 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted December 4, 2011 Share Posted December 4, 2011 Ultramarines Led by a Primarch who controlled the region of Ultramar. Hmm... Ultramarines? That's supposed to be the in-universe explanation for their name, rather than calling them Ultra-marines. There's also the joke that their armour is painted the same colour as their name. Raven Guard That's the name of Corax's freedom-fighter group, if I remember correctly. Emperor's Children Fulgrim gave a speech when he took command of his Legion, stating that "we are the children of the Emperor, and we will not fail him". The Emperor was so impressed by his zeal that he named the Legion the Emperors Children, and allowed them to wear the aquila on their armour. White Scars I'm not exactly sure, but I remember the name tying back to the scarification rituals of Chogoris in some way. Dark Angels They were known as the First Legion before-hand, and were renamed by the Lion when he was discovered. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242378-the-angels-of-death-in-a-secular-imperium/#findComment-2936796 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coryphaus 101 Posted December 4, 2011 Share Posted December 4, 2011 Is it just me or did the Horus Heresy authors kind of confused the terms "secularism" and "antitheism"? Oh snap! Seriously, though, that's a fantastic point. Or maybe it's just one more example of the arrogance of the Imperium that Horus is rebelling against... Sounds to me as if the Emperor kind of forgot the meaning of secularism. He doesn't seem to argue for a separation of church and state but more for the entire removal of religion/spirituality. The irony is that the Imperial way of rule (even pre-Heresy) is a religion in itself. Everything is a religion in itself. EVERYTHING!!! (seriously, if you believe in something it could be classified your religion) Science has nothing to do with religion. There are no belif in science. Only the acceptance of what fact tell you about the world, and the theories based upon these facts to predict events. You have faith in these facts and believe them to be true. Anyway, let's stop with the religious debate and get back on topic. I think the Thousans Sons, Luna Wolves and Imperial Fists were the only ones who kept they're original names (maybe the Salamanders too). Horus was named Lupercal by his Legion so I'm pretty sure the Luna Wolves was the original name. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242378-the-angels-of-death-in-a-secular-imperium/#findComment-2937074 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 Salamanders most definitely wasn't the original name of the Legion, as it's simply too much of a coincidence that the Salamander Legion happens to have a Primarch who grew up on a planet where the biggest "monster" was the Salamander, and which featured heavily in his trial against the Emperor, and presumably beforehand. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242378-the-angels-of-death-in-a-secular-imperium/#findComment-2937334 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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