Some help with a new side-army

[Th!rdeye]

Greetings brothers.

 

While i wait for a new Templar codex to drop i want to collect a small 1000pt Grey Knight army to use in small games and team games with my buddies. It would be a nice change of pace.

 

My one buddy is sellling some GK stuff he has (he wants to go Tau) and i can get a good price on some NOS stuff.

 

He has 15 PA Knights and 5 Terminators that are NOS. He also has a LR, SR, and some Rhinos i believe. Plus a good amount of extra bits and such.

 

So i ask you knowledgeable brothers for some advice on what to take. I have the codex and am reading through and really like Interceptors for that epic shunt move. Terminators as troops is certainly nice as well.

 

My only requirements are...

 

1. Footslogging - I have had to mech up my Templar enough to get anywhere. I would like to TRY to stay clear of armour and focus on deep striking in and getting in their face. No real interest in long range options with this army.

 

2. Working with what i have - I will prolly buy the 15 PA and 5 TDA, and the bits. I have enough bitz myself and could get some extra legs and such on ebay to make more PA guys to fill out the squads or make another squad.

 

3. No spam - I know purifiers are God-Emperor-send but i would like to limit them, and keep the list fun and fluffy. I want to work this army into alliance with my Templar fluff in interesting ways. Fluff and the story is a huge part of the fun for me.

 

4. No Librarians - I have enough issues taking psychic tests for the troops.... <_<

 

 

It doesn't need to be SUPER competitive but i would like to kick some butt while having fun.

 

I have a sizeiable force of Templar and extras so there are plently of options for proxying until i get final stuff and conversion bits to make special ICs and more troops as stated above.

 

I made a few lists but i have little experience playing these pure knights. So i can't forsee how some units perform. The thing that looked the best was a rough list (it came out below 1000pts) of a Champion (im a sucker i know), 2x 5-man strike squads with some halbards, a hammer on the Justy, and a psycannon, 5 man Terminator squad with 2 hammers and 3 halbards, a Interceptor squad with a psycannon and halbard on the Justy.

 

I also thought about swapping the Champion out for a GM to be able to make the Interceptor a troop choice, among the other options.

 

Any suggestions are welcome!

 

Thanks!

[number6]

For small 1000 pts lists, I wouldn't do ANY deep striking. The army is simply too small at this points level to be able to absorb being taken apart piecemeal as it arrives in bite-size chunks for the enemy to destroy. At larger points levels -- say, at least 1750 pts -- you can build lists that can successfully go all reserves or with a unit or two in reserves, but not at 1000 pts. You need to design the list to fully deploy on the table and be ready to play full strength right from turn 1.

 

I do not think it's a good idea to specifically forgo all "long range" options, either. Outside of any considerations of the GK army itself, this is rarely a good idea in 40K army list building from any codex. There are a few GK builds where nothing with a range longer than 24" is used ... but such an army needs to mech up heavily in order to deliver units to the midfield so those short range guns can be put to use. And you said you don't want to mech up, either.

 

That is: I think what you want is simply not possible to make unless you're willing to compromise at least a little bit on your demands. Can you mech up even a little bit? Would you consider something like a psyfleman dreadnought?

 

Terminators make excellent Troops, and you can make a solid GK list that is essentially nothing but basic Terminators. But, of course, you understandably want to make use of the majority of your collection of power-armoured Troops. Including Interceptors. :mellow:

 

Personally, given your limitations, preferences and proposed purchases, here's the list I'd build.

 

HQ

[100 pts] Brotherhood Champion

 

Troop

[120 pts] 5 Strikers, psycannon, justicar w/hammer

[50 pts] Razorback, psybolts

[225 pts] 5 Terminators, psycannon, 4 halberds, hammer

 

Fast Attack

[150 pts] 5 Interceptors, psycannon, justicar w/hammer

[150 pts] 5 Interceptors, psycannon, justicar w/hammer

[205 pts] Stormraven, TLMM, TLLC

 

Total: 1000 pts

 

Attach the champion to the terminators and put them in the stormraven. This list can get anywhere on the table in a hurry, and the champion will help the terminators hit hard when you get them in assault ... assuming you want to do that. If the raven gets shot down -- or if your opponent is simply better than you at assault, they'll shoot pretty well and you can run the champion out as a speedbump.

[DevianID]

I really like the suggestions made by number6, as that seems to create a decent force with your restrictions in mind.

 

For HQ, I like the idea of a Brotherhood Champion for you because you can use your Black Templar Emperor's Champion model--at least I would, I love that model.

 

If you wanted to change up the list any, really the only thing you could do (with the model restriction in mind) is something like this

 

100-Champion

150-5 interceptors (Psycannon/hammer)

270-10 Strike marines (2 Psycannons, Hammer, Rhino)

255-Land Raider (I dont know which flavor you have available from your friend--preferably a redeemer over the crusader)

225-5 termies with either pcannon or banner

 

So, basicly you swap the storm raven for a land raider, and get the extra points by downgrading an interceptor squad for more strikes. Because the strike marines still deepstrike, they still fit the theme.

[Th!rdeye]

Thanks for the replies!!

 

 

I know my "demands" are hurtful to an effective list, but i just like the appeal of GKs doing it without armour. They look too badass to hide in a rhino.

 

number6,

 

I like the list a lot. I have plenty of rhinos/razorbacks so i wouldn't need to buy anymore but the storm raven makes me "eh".

 

I wouldn't like to make that investment unless my Templars could get it in the new codex... I'm getting these models at a nice price hopefully and i would like to continue my thrifty savings. The more money i spend the less can go into my beloved Templar. :P

 

I shall consider it as it is a formidable vehicle and very very good for that list. I love the list itself. The SR is the only thing that turns me off.

 

What are your thoughts on the Grand Master instead of the Champion. Or other HQs for that matter? The Brother Captain seems to be great for a DS list with that (filthy) psychic ability and use of servo skulls.

 

I looked at the champions entry again and GASP. Only 1 wound?! ;)

 

 

DevianID,

 

I planned on using my Champion for that. Saved me some model buying trouble. :P And yes that model is really nice. :)

 

A single LR in a 1000pt list is risking it. I know all to well how easy it is to roll a filthy 1 for DT.

 

If i do any mech i would like to have at least 2 or 3 vehicles to take the heat off of each other.

 

 

 

 

Here's my try at another list (or two) assuming i can make some more PAGKs and my new knowledge on psychic powers and such.

 

165pts - Brother Captain with Incinerator/Hammer/Halbard and 2x Servo skulls

 

135pts - 5x Strike Knights with 3x Halbards, Psycannon, Justy with Hammer

135pts - 5x Strike Knights with 3x Halbards, Psycannon, Justy with Hammer

225pts - 5x Terminators with 3x Halbards, Psycannon, Hammer

 

 

170pts - 5x Interceptors with Psycannon, Justy with Hammer, Psybolts

170pts - 5x Interceptors with Psycannon, Justy with Hammer, Psybolts

 

Servo skulls allows better deep striking for the Troops. Interceptors can shunt and get lots of side/rear shots on scary things with S5 bolters and psycannon, plus i can deep strike them too and get my enemy to move then shunt behind then causing all kinds of mischief. Captain helps out the deep striking and pairs up with a squad to help out when needed. Loadout is whatever would be more effective for him. He can take punishment with his 4++ since he will swing lastwith the hammer, the Halbard makes him I7, and the Incinerator is just plain awesome.

 

Needs lots of skill to work but could be fun. Thoughts?

 

Was thinking of this for taking the lightly mech'd route....

 

180pts - Grand Master with Incincerator

 

185pts - 5x Strike Knights with 3x Halbards, Psycannon, Justy with Hammer in Razorback with Psybolts

185pts - 5x Strike Knights with 3x Halbards, Psycannon, Justy with Hammer in Razorback with Psybolts

 

225 - 5x Terminators with 3x Halbards, Psycannon, Hammer

 

217pts - 7x Interceptors with Psycannon, and Justy with Hammer, and Psybolts

 

Can run this MANY different ways depending on the mission and enemy. Grand Master allows for some fun choices. So much i could do with this depending on the enemy. This is more economical as it is the cheapest model cost with me kitbashing a few extra for the Interceptor squad.

 

 

Also another questions/list theory idea. I understand why the Hammer on the Justicar. Helps for no tarpitting from a dreadnought or something similar. Helps against MCs and such too. But since GKs are not so hot on the defense in the regular squads, why not give them the Halbard to help? Best defense is a strong offense.... Thoughts on that? My love for the Halbard bleeds through in these lists. :P

[DevianID]

Well, the issue with Halberds is that they cost too much on strike squads with 1 attack.

 

If you wanted to use halberd models that your friend has, but you dont want to get either the storm raven or land raider (both really are very good in 1k points) then I would just bite the bullet and run purifiers. If you only take 1 pcannon on each they are not nearly as abusive.

 

Crowe (150)

3x5 purifiers with 3 halberds, 1 psycannon, hammer (423)

1 psy ammo razor (50)

5 terminators with pcannon (225)

5 Interceptors/hammer/cannon (150)

[number6]

I agree with DevianID on halberds. I.e., if you really want them that badly -- perhaps because the GKs you can buy are mostly the old metal ones (and many of us have a lot of those! :tu: ) -- then you should run them as Purifiers and not as Strikers. Shortly after the new codex was released, I ran several armies based on my old metal collection mostly as Strikers and Interceptors -- halberds everywhere! -- and it was terrible. Halberds on Strikers and Interceptors are very inefficient used en masse. The occasional halberd -- say, 2 per 10 models or so -- are OK if you have the points to spare, you can buy the full 10 man unit for combat squad purposes, and the combat squads you break down will serve entirely different battlefield roles. But for general-purpose utility: 5 pt halberds on 20 pt (or 26 pt) space Marines aren't really worth it. If you want halberds on power-armoured GKs, you want purifiers.

 

As to your question on HQs: Again, I must emphasize that you should not build an all reserves list. Not at 1000 pts. Your servo skulls will not last because you opponent will have as many as two game turns to ensure they are no longer present when your forces start arriving. Also, a +1 on reserves rolls is nice, but still nowhere near reliable enough. I've been playing an all reserves Tyranids list -- led by a Hive Commander flyrant, of course -- for close to two years, and it simply doesn't function at less than 1500 pts, and even then ... just barely. It's still quite random and susceptible to bad reserves rolls and easy pickings for the enemy. Fun? Definitely! But reliable or competitive? Definitely not! ;) In fact, as fun as it is, it is only just barely good. And trust me: it's no fun at all to run at less than 1500 pts -- either for me or for my opponent -- because there is simply no chance at all for it to compete, let alone make a serious play at winning a game. GKs aren't going to be any better at it, I'm afraid.

 

There's nothing really wrong with either the GM or the Brother-Captain as HQs ... I just don't know that you're really getting anything more useful out of them than you would out of a Champion. True, he's only got one wound, but he's got a 2+/4++ save (3++ in close combat), can opt to tarpit a unit all on his own if you need (a fantastic tactical option to have in your toolbox), he's a force multiplier for the unit he's attached to, he can legitimately threaten any model on the table, no matter how awesome. And he's dirt cheap, an important consideration for small sided games like you'll be playing. ;)

 

Really, the only other HQ that I think is worth considering for such a small force is an Inquisitor of one flavor or another. In a GK-model army, a great HQ to mix in is a Malleus Inquisitor in termie armour with a hammer and a psycannon. For 80 pts, join him up with some footslogging termintators with a psycannon, and profit. ;)

 

However, if you want a beefier character as an HQ, somebody you won't fear to put in melee -- and he needs to be a GK -- I'd opt either for a Librarian or a Brother-Captain with psychotroke grenades.

 

Of course, if you're going to be playing with Purifiers, then really your only option is Crowe. Which isn't awful! In fact, at 1000 pts, he's actually pretty solid and his inability to join another unit is nowhere near the liability that it can sometimes be in other army lists.

[Th!rdeye]

Thanks a lot for the advice guys!

 

I see now how a all DS list is risky. I would love to run it still, but for my more serious list i think im gonna take some Psybacks...

 

So i figured out i can get each Strike squad from my friend for 20 dollars each, and the Terminators for 35. BARGAIN!

 

and i bought a Strike squad last night because our LGS had a good sale.

 

So now after today i will have 20x PAGKs and 5x Terminators. Along with my large supply of 6 Rhinos/Razorbacks, extra bits, and my own HQ models.

 

 

Last night i build a Justicar with a Daemonhammer and let me say these new kits are AMAZING. Love the extra bits you get. Looks like my Templar will get some new helms and swords. :lol:

 

 

So number6,

 

With my new amount of models (don't forget the extra 4 possible models i can build with the extra bits from all the kits) what would you do to your first list with the Storm Raven? I'd love to hear your input. :P

 

Heres a new list i build and i like.

 

Brotherhood Champion - 100pts

 

175pts - 5x Strike Knights, with Psycannon, Justicar with Hammer, 1x Halbard and a Psyback

170pts - 5x Strike Knights, with Psycannon, Justicar with Halbard, 1x Halbard and a Psyback

 

225pts - 5x Terminators with 1x Hammer, 3x Halbards, 1x Psycannon

 

325pts - 10x Interceptors with 2x Psycannons, 2x Halbards, Justicar with Hammer, and Psybolts

 

 

As for the Halbard thing. Is it bad to take that on the Justicar? I know its my choice in the end but i wanna hear experience with it and why the hammer is so valuable. I know the value of getting a S8 weapon in squad to help from getting tarpitted, but that is usually easy to avoid. In terms of the two squads, Interceptor and Strike, would both benefit that much from a hammer on the Justicar? I worry about him not being able to swing because i could fail a save on him if i can enough wounds... It seems to me that the Halbard would be good on the Interceptor Justicar as they have the mobility to stay away from Dreads and the like. But that limits their tank busting ability... I just worry that they (SS and IS) can get wiped out in combat too easily before the hammer can do its duty. Guess thats why full squads are nice and the ability to combat squad..

 

On another topic, what of the Warding stave on these squads?

[number6]

I like the structure of your list fine. ^_^ Though I do think some tweaks will improve it....

 

I wouldn't put a halberd on your Justicar; stick with the hammer. You've already correctly rationalized why you need hammers in your units: it's to ensure that your units can succussfully threaten any enemy.

 

If you instead put a halberd on just one of your justicars, you will have unbalanced your unit capabilities. Which means that you have to prioritize how one unit gets employed over another one, and similarly, your opponent can prioritize the destruction of one unit over another one. This is why you want your unit capabilities -- for the same units, at least (especially true for a small points army where you simply won't have enough points to ensure true redundancy) -- to be as closely equivalent as possible. That way you can always count on having something available when you need it, and nothing truly stands out as "must kill" for your opponent.

 

Keep the hammer on your power-armoured justicar instead of a halberd. He'll survive because you shouldn't be sending in little 5-man units to take on more than they can reasonably kill. Coordinate with your other units; don't leave them stranded and undefended. The hammer is as much as a defensive warning to your opponent as it is a useful, all-round tool for you. The unit must be taken seriously just because it has a hidden hammer in it, same as people have to take other Marine squads with hidden power fists seriously.

 

Also, if it were me, I'd end up favoring the aforementioned OM Inquisitor over the Champion for your particular list. Having a 2nd relentless psycannon in the terminator unit is golden, and with 3 wounds you can have him soak some of the initial fire the unit will attract. I don't think the Champion actually does much for the list because there's no clear or easy way to get him -- and the unit he's attached to -- into assault.

 

As for warding staves ... sure. If you have the points to spare. I don't think I'd bother on anything other than full 10-man power-armoured units you never intend to combat squad or on terminators (and again, only if points allow).

 

If you take this advice on board, here's the list you could end up with.

 

HQ

[89 pts] OM Inquisitor, terminator armour, hammer, psycannon, 3 servo skulls

 

Troop

[120 pts] 5 Strikers, psycannon, justicar w/hammer

[50 pts] Razorback, psybolts

[120 pts] 5 Strikers, psycannon, justicar w/hammer

[50 pts] Razorback, psybolts

[245 pts] 5 Terminators, psycannon, 3 halberds, hammer, stave

 

Fast Attack

[325 pts] 10 Interceptors, 2 psycannons, 3 halberds, 2 hammers, justicar w/hammer

 

Total: 999 pts

 

Join the Inquisitor to the terminators and shoot, shoot, shoot! The stave and extra wounds -- and hammer -- supplied by the Inquisitor will give the unit both extra oomph and survivability in assault if they manage to reach it. You've got multiple hammers and halberds on your Interceptors to make them truly threatening, especially on the charge. They'll work fine as is -- and preserve a kill point for doing so when/if that is ever important -- but you've also got lots of interesting options for combat squads, too, as a result. (For example, you can split the psycannons, swords, and one hammer or halberd off to make a shooty unit and the rest can become a dedicated combat unit. Or you can give one squad one psycannon, 2 hammers, and 1-2 halberds and then the other psycannon, halberds, and the justicar can go in the other combat squad to give you roughly equivalent combat capabilities in each squad.)