The Iron Within

[Gree]

Yeah Perturabo did personally lead the Siege of Terra, but then Rogal Dorn personally lead the defence and he was also a primarch and siege master so it kind of cancels. I mean look, the issue to me isn't so much that the traitors lost the battle or whatever in of itself, it's that the series as a whole leans toward making the Traitor Legions a bunch of incompetent stereotypical "bad guys" and the loyalists are a bunch of John McLanes kicking the ever loving "stuff" out of them despite being outnumbered/ambushed/etc.

 

Not only does this bother me as a fan of Chaos, but it bothers me as a fan of 40k lore in general because it cheapens the whole Heresy drama. I mean originally the Traitor Legions were these terrible forces that it took the greatest sacrifice from the Emperor to defeat. Now they just seem like a joke. Let's see, Istvaan III they are held up by vastly numerically inferior loyalist contingents that survive a VIRUS BOMBING, end up bogged down, take far more losses than anticipated and don't even kill Clark Ken--Garviel Loken.

 

Then on Istvaan V things go ok for them, except instead of less than 10 marines surviving the massacre as per the original fluff, now a whole bunch of Raven Guard survive, killing a bunch of traitors as they escape (Raven's Flight). And now this. A couple loyalist Iron Warriors coop themselves up in a stalactite and somehow hold off a Grand Company of traitors, and don't even die at the end, oh no, they pull out a total miracle and run off to help the heroes by stealing a traitor ship and basically killing the entire assaulting company. I mean how would loyalists feel if there was a story about a squad of Ultramarines turning to Chaos, totally embarrassing an Ultra battle company over a year long series of battles, stealing their strike crusiser, and going to the Eye to join Abaddon.

 

All because of how much better they obviously were than the loyal Ultras, their sergeant was apparently a combat genius, even among the rest of his chapter. Even as it is SW players are angry about the Wolf of Fenris blurb that merely suggests that some Wolves turned at one point, and Legatus thinks that the Battle of Eskrador is some kind of conspiracy that never happened (it's basically the only battle the Ultras have ever lost in fluff) but traitor players swallow their faction being treated like utter idiots and incompetent walking targets all the time and I'm sick of it.

 

Well if oyu want ot see loyalists losing, James Swallow and Graham McNeill’s books feature Ultramarines and Blood Angels suffering defeats (Although winning in the end) and McNeill’s book contain a spiel on how the Codex Astartes is a bad thing for the Ultramarines. Quite truthfully most Ultramarine players here would prefer that said books would never had happened.

 

The Word Bearers series also features the White Consuls taking quite a pounding. Rob Sanders himself wrote a short story featuring a victorious Alpha Legion over an Ultramarine successor chapter.

 

I hope that helps.

[Captain Idaho]

No need to swear, I've gone through and amended a post already. Remember the forum is family friendly.

 

With regards to the focus; I think you are over reacting a little. There have been precious few victories for the loyalists so far. The focus on loyalists within traitor Legions is deliberate to show a contrast and demonstrate the struggles within those Legions etc. It's a big part of the character of the Legions that turned; they didn't just turn from one figure head to another, they also turned from those closest to them. Their betrayals are worse than just allegience, they a betrayal of brotherhood and kin.

 

You know the loyalists are going to win, do you really want their victories to come from no where or do you want a fight to read about? They aren't just taking the beating but somehow win in the end, there is a galaxy wide civil war. In fact if the Loyalists were to be losing everywhere until the last minute, it makes the defeat of the traitors kinda cheesey and shows them to be rather incompetetant!

[Rain]

I understand that, and obviously the loyalists win in the end, I am not objecting to that. My points are the following:

 

1.) By and large the traitors were already rather unpleasant folks, either very arrogant and childish (Lucius), rude and brutish (Abaddon, Typhus, Grulgor) etc. This diminishes the "fall from grace" angle of once noble and pure warriors slowly but surely becoming twisted and evil.

 

2.) While some loyalist victories along the way make sense, some of it seems very deus ex machina. I mean Loken somehow survived a virus bombing, a 1st company assassination squad, and a titan foot. Say what now? And in the story in question an outnumbered loyalist contingent held off and eventually defeated an entire Grand Company and an Emperor titan, and they didn't even die in a "final sacrifice" kind of way, no they got away.

 

Again, the loyalist defeats at the beginning of the heresy are what made its end compelling in my opinion, a villain needs to be threatening and credible, even if ultimately defeated, but these villains just get outsmarted and outfought at every turn. Even their traps and carefully orchestrated maneuvers where they bring overwhelming force upon the enemy are somehow survived by the "heroes". Which is my point. Some of these battles start with horribly stacked decks and the traitors still lose, even when it is not story vital for them to do so (as in Siege of Terra) and would in fact increase the peril of the entire plot if they won.

 

I mean so far the only HH books in which the traitors seem competent is First Heretic and I guess you could argue Fulgrim. Otherwise even when they "win" (because it was pre-determined by older fluff eg Istvaan V) they do so in an awfully pyrrhic fashion and the heroes still inexplicably survive. Similar idea in TIW except that they are straight up spanked, like in an 80's action movie. Oh and sorry if I got a bit nerd ragey, it's just something that bothers me as a Chaos and 40k fan.

[Morollan]

I understand that, and obviously the loyalists win in the end, I am not objecting to that. My points are the following:

 

1.) By and large the traitors were already rather unpleasant folks, either very arrogant and childish (Lucius), rude and brutish (Abaddon, Typhus, Grulgor) etc. This diminishes the "fall from grace" angle of once noble and pure warriors slowly but surely becoming twisted and evil.

 

There are a few traitors whose fall from grace is nothing short of epic. Horus himself of course, Fulgrim, Lorgar and Magnus.

 

I sort of understand your complaint over the way in which the loyalists seem to superior but let's face it, a whole series of books in which the bad guys just consistently walk all over the good guys (or the other way round) would be pretty damn boring! It's the same reason James Bond doesn't get a sniper round to the forehead 3 minutes into the film, or why the Eagles don't just fly Frodo straight into Mordor.

[Rain]

Horus was possessed/ensorceled he didn't really "fall" as such, Fulgrim was also possessed. I agree that Lorgar's fall was dynamic and interesting, but then The First Heretic was my favorite HH novel and the only one that I think did a proper job of setting the grim mood of the Heresy and really made the traitors a credible threat, although they didn't just stomp their way through everything either. Magnus's story was alright I suppose, but I agree in that he wasn't portrayed as completely unpalatable, though he was kind of impetuous and "I know best at all times forever, shut up most powerful psyker in the universe who created me".

 

I suppose overall though I was referring more to the non-primarch characters, though for the most part what I said holds true for primarchs as well, they either got possessed so were kind of daemons/puppets of daemons more than individuals or were already unpleasant, again except for Lorgar and somewhat Magnus, who I admit were handled well, gotta give credit where it's due. But again, I never asked for the traitors to win every battle up until the siege or "walk all over" anyone, I just wish that they could at least win a few, especially when they have such an advantage. Winning a battle in which you outnumber an isolated foe is not walking all over anyone, it's the natural outcome given that you are also a competent force.

 

Edit: As to the James Bond point you made, that's kind of the whole thing to me, I hate applying "James Bond logic" to 40k, where there is some immortal suave hero that beats the odds as a foregone conclusion. That's not the 40k vibe to me, I always saw 40k as spiritually similar to say WW2. Sure the Allies won, but the Axis still won many individual battles and decisively so, and many men who could be considered heroes still died, no matter their skill or bravery. That's grimdark to me, and that's the "soul" of 40k. Even if there are spaceships and grenade-machine guns, the spirit of it has always seemed closer to reality than James Bond.

[calgar101]

Umm the traitors did pretty win every battle... That is why there is the Siege of Terra and no the Siege of Cthonia or equivalent..

[MRCHAOS]

When I first started reading the HH Series I thought wow this Locken guy is cool and its gona be great (epic) in his downfall and turning to Chaos. But no, you can tell as soon as you meet a character in the series if they stay loyal or not as all the Chaos Marines are just evil i.e they dislike the Hero plot character for some lame reason or another.

What a let down it was!!!

 

Still got all the HH books though and enjoy reading them, more so from the traitor perspective though.

[Captain Idaho]

To play devil's advocate with regards to the last post, the "likable" characters from

the Dark Angel's books turn into fallen by the looks of things, The First Heretic has us routing for and understanding Argel Tal and the Thousand Sons certainly make us much more sympathetic to who turns traitor.

 

Hell, I was pleasantly surprised with Argel Tal, considering him seemed like he was being set up to be a Loken in the initial elements of the First Heretic but A D-B

went in a different direction with him.

[calgar101]

Am I the only one that thought Abaddon was quite likeable in Horus Rising?

[Rain]

Yeah you are. Also, what battles did the traitors win exactly? Istvaan III? They took far more casualties than expected and got held up far longer than expected, while allowing many loyalists to survive/escape. Not much of a victory. Istvaan V? Well this certainly was a decisive victory. In the original fluff. Now thousands of loyalists escaped the trap, killing a bunch of traitors as they did so. You see the point of an ambush with overwhelming force is to annihilate your opponent. You don't "win" unless that's accomplished or close to accomplished, just because the traitors weren't wiped out in these battles doesn't mean they won, they had stacked the cards in their favor from the git-go and still pulled off largely pyrric victories and then only in the cases that pre-existing fluff had mandated that they at least "kind of" win.

 

Oh and Idaho, Fallen are kind of a grey area, much like the Alpha Legion, we don't really know if they are disloyal to the Emperor or not, or if some are and some aren't or they are all deluded or what. As for The First Heretic, I already said several times that I agree that that novel was handled very well, I actually prefer it to ADB's Night Lords work (don't hurt me) but that doesn't excuse the handling of most of the rest of the series, this rather ridiculous story most certainly included.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Am I the only one that thought Abaddon was quite likeable in Horus Rising?

 

nope. i liked him too.

 

WLK

[calgar101]

The loyalist were warned weren't they and managed to get into relative safety before the virus bombs went off. As for the battles that followed I imagine it had something to do with superior positions and generally being pissed off at being betrayed that kept them fighting against the odds. Umm as far as I can recollect from the Istvaan V fluff in the old White Dwarf some loyalists managed to escape... So not really anything new there. The Raven Guard went there with 80,000 marines and left with barely 3000.... And we learn now that

Alpharius may have had something to do with Corax's escape..

, we don't know how many Salamanders were killed at Istvaan but again probably most of the legion and well the Iron Hands only went with their veterans so no huge loss of numbers there but Ferrus was killed. The traitors managed to crippled 3 whole legions in one blow... Two more legions are busy ripping into each other on Prospero and the Ultramarines are being attacked at Calth...

Why is the Iron Within so bad? We're given the reasons as to why Dantioch was able to hold up for so long.. As for his exit strategy? Well that too makes perfect sense, he is the kind of guy that not only thinks out of the box but invented the box.

[Rain]

Ok I think I'm done arguing the point, I'm mostly just repeating things I've already said at this point anyway. If other people like the story that's fine, I neither want to nor can take their enjoyment away from them but to me it left a sour taste indicative of the kind of popcorn Michael Bay mentality of some 40k fiction.

[nightlordsrock3564]

i loved this short story but not my fave in Age of Darkness (I LOVE ADB's take on Night Lords and it's good to see some sons of horus)

[Grandmaster Anaziel]

Ok I think I'm done arguing the point, I'm mostly just repeating things I've already said at this point anyway. If other people like the story that's fine, I neither want to nor can take their enjoyment away from them but to me it left a sour taste indicative of the kind of popcorn Michael Bay mentality of some 40k fiction.

 

I must say that I agree with you about this short story. I have a fairly similar problem with it.

[Billuriye]

Ok I think I'm done arguing the point, I'm mostly just repeating things I've already said at this point anyway. If other people like the story that's fine, I neither want to nor can take their enjoyment away from them but to me it left a sour taste indicative of the kind of popcorn Michael Bay mentality of some 40k fiction.

 

Michael Bay mentality ? I must say i am quite offended.

[Walter Payton]

Ok I think I'm done arguing the point, I'm mostly just repeating things I've already said at this point anyway. If other people like the story that's fine, I neither want to nor can take their enjoyment away from them but to me it left a sour taste indicative of the kind of popcorn Michael Bay mentality of some 40k fiction.

 

Michael Bay mentality ? I must say i am quite offended.

 

So should you be. Transformers: Dark of the Moon is a cinematic triumph. Pearl Harbour was incredible and will doubtless be referenced by many historians in the future.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

I understand that, and obviously the loyalists win in the end, I am not objecting to that. My points are the following:

 

1.) By and large the traitors were already rather unpleasant folks, either very arrogant and childish (Lucius), rude and brutish (Abaddon, Typhus, Grulgor) etc. This diminishes the "fall from grace" angle of once noble and pure warriors slowly but surely becoming twisted and evil.

"The "fall from grace" angle of once noble and pure warriors slowly but surely becoming twisted and evil." is just Imperial propaganda for the purpose of having the general populace of the Empire hate the Traitors. A over-generalization that was to a large degree a lie. The Night Lords," once noble and pure warriors"?? /not. The Luna wolves may have had some honer but they came from hive gang scum. You seem to have drunk the coolaid. If the people thought the Traitors were evil from the start then that would have made the Emperor look bad. If they were evil from the start then they were just following their nature. There has to be a reason that the people can understand why the traitors fell. Chaos.

 

2.) While some loyalist victories along the way make sense, some of it seems very deus ex machina. I mean Loken somehow survived a virus bombing, a 1st company assassination squad, and a titan foot. Say what now? And in the story in question an outnumbered loyalist contingent held off and eventually defeated an entire Grand Company and an Emperor titan, and they didn't even die in a "final sacrifice" kind of way, no they got away.

Loken survived alot more then that. He survived the parting city wide orbital bombardment. He was buried alive under tons of rubble.

Not to mention 5+ years alone, on a world full of Nurgle Plaguebearer demons.

 

 

Yes all this happened and more. The question we should be asking is How. They lived because the Emperor Protects. As a fan of Chaos you might not like it but the good guys have a edge and their Faith in the Emperor their shield.

Again, the loyalist defeats at the beginning of the heresy are what made its end compelling in my opinion, a villain needs to be threatening and credible, even if ultimately defeated, but these villains just get outsmarted and outfought at every turn. Even their traps and carefully orchestrated maneuvers where they bring overwhelming force upon the enemy are somehow survived by the "heroes". Which is my point. Some of these battles start with horribly stacked decks and the traitors still lose, even when it is not story vital for them to do so (as in Siege of Terra) and would in fact increase the peril of the entire plot if they won.

The number of hero's that died compared to the few who live is what? 10k to 1? ish. The bad guys succeed in just about destroying 3 whole legions on Istvaan V. Sure it was not as bad as we have been led to believe by the propaganda we had access to, but it was still a devastating loss to the good guys. The story in Iron Within is a aberration. If it was not then Horus would not have laid siege to Terra.

 

 

Am I the only one that thought Abaddon was quite likeable in Horus Rising?

 

Not at all. I loved how Abaddon teases Loken, when he beats him to the glory of breaching the palace. Loken, Loken, Loken... In false Gods when the Mournivall tramples the civilians i totally understood. Even at the end of Galaxy in flames when Loken looses it and lets the anger in, Abaddon tell him "There's hope for you yet, Loken". That was sick. Sure he was a jerk but a likeable one at the start.

[Týr]

Ok I think I'm done arguing the point, I'm mostly just repeating things I've already said at this point anyway. If other people like the story that's fine, I neither want to nor can take their enjoyment away from them but to me it left a sour taste indicative of the kind of popcorn Michael Bay mentality of some 40k fiction.

 

Why do you read the series, if almost every book leaves you with a "sour taste" ?

I belive one can conclude that you shouldn't read the Horus Heresy series then. These books don't seem to be anything you like.

[Morollan]

Horus was possessed/ensorceled he didn't really "fall" as such, Fulgrim was also possessed.

 

The fall of Horus relied on a certain amount of sorcery but that wasn't the cause, only the means by which Erebus was able to manipulate Horus's own feelings. The final act of his fall was a conscious decision on the part of Horus. I'm also not sure he was ever possessed. The Chaos Gods were feeding him power but he was pretty much still in control of his own actions.

 

As for Fulgrim, he was possessed only after his fall.

[Billuriye]

The Chaos Gods were feeding him power but he was pretty much still in control of his own actions.

 

Nope, when Emperor drived the gods from him, Horus was in tears and begged Emperor to kill him or they will claim him again. That's borderline possession. I don't say he was possessed from the start but as the corruption spread he was obviously not his old self.

[Morollan]

The Chaos Gods were feeding him power but he was pretty much still in control of his own actions.

 

Nope, when Emperor drived the gods from him, Horus was in tears and begged Emperor to kill him or they will claim him again. That's borderline possession. I don't say he was possessed from the start but as the corruption spread he was obviously not his old self.

 

Never really read that as possession. More a kind of insanity. I guess it is open to interpretation though.

[SickSix]

*I loved Iron within and I put Dantioch just under Loken as my all time favorite character so far. Awesome story, and deserves much more 'air time'.*

 

 

I have to respond to some points made in Rain's first couple posts, before I forget.

 

40k is entertainment, and its going to follow the Golden Rule. Good guys win. Suck it up. The bad guys DO incapacitate the emperor. They practically ruin the Empire. Not exactly the work of bumbling idiots.

 

Anyways, more about Iron Within directly. It is completely concieveable for an inferior force to tie up a vastly superior force for a protracted amount of time. It has happened throughout history. Tactical position can make up for a lot. And when you have a leader who truly understands how to exploit his superior position, then the scales are tipped drastically. Only a handful of survivors made it out. It's not like Dantioch annihilated the opposition without loss. But Dantioch is a 'hero' character, he is going to win. A lot of loyalists have died in this war, with more to come. And in fact, don't more loyalist Primarchs die?

 

Also, doesn't the fact that the traitors fell to chaos make them inherently weaker? Even if in an minute way?

[Brother Tyler]

The bad guys DO incapacitate the emperor. They practically ruin the Empire.

I fixed that for you. :blush:

[Mac the knife]

The Horus Heresy is a simple tale as old as Cain and Abel. It's a morality tale with bolter porn added. Pride, Jealously, hatred and greed are all things we believe are character flaws. These flaws are apparent in all people and especially in those who are super human. Chaos exploited those flaws to cause the fall of the Primarchs and their followers. Horus, Magnus, Lorgar and Luthor all fell due to their pride (or wounded pride). Angron fell and is a tale of how lack of self control is damning. Cruze, Perturbo and Mortarion are outliers. Cruze is imo a combination of pride and hatred. Perturbo fell due to his wounded pride and jealousy of Dorn. Mortarion I don't really know why he fell. Papa Nurgle caused it but i don't really know what character flaw caused his fall. These character flaws are manifested by all the progeny of Primarchs so all have the same weaknesses their father has. So in the light of the story and their fall to chaos all the progeny of the fallen Primarchs ARE weaker than their loyalist counterparts.

 

The loyalists are stronger because they are able to protect against this flaw or b/c they're mary sue'd into not having one.