Captain Idaho Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 I disagree with your assumption loyalists are stronger because they are not flawed or able to protect against the flaws. The loyalists in the Heresy are fairly evenly matched with the Traitors. They have home advantage on Terra but still were fighting a losing battle they could only win if relief came or by the desparate gamble we all know about the final confrontation. The traitors certainly don't need any boosts to their credentials . Plenty of novels are telling us how Horus is creating an empire of his own out of all the planets pledging allegience to him or his cause and the Heresy has only just started as far as the big events are concerned. And the loyalists have plenty of shades of grey. The Dark Angels appear to be rife with internal problems from what I've read of the short story in Tales of Heresy and the 2 DA books. The Space Wolves are a savage force not a million miles away from World Eaters in their gleeful destruction of a planet from another Legion and all the population of the planet. The Ultramarines are reeling from a heavy hit by the Word Bearers and attempting to work on a plan to save the Emperor's dream. There's no Mary Sue-ism going on in the Heresy series. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242436-the-iron-within/page/3/#findComment-2939750 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mac the knife Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 The traitor legions all weaken themselves with their fall to chaos. The all give into whatever character flaws that lead to the shattering of the chaos legions. They will only fall in line under the control of a strong warlord. The Emperor's Children are unable to be controlled and resort to hunting the human populace for pleasure on Terra. The Iron Hands character in Iron Within is angered by the resistance of the leader of the Schadenhold and has to dig him out personally instead of destroying the rock and being done with it. All the Legions broke their oaths of brotherhood and loyalty within their legion, the other legions and the Emperor. This in and of itself is a massive weakness which shatters the very bedrock of the legions in and of itself, trust. None are able to trust their brother anymore because that brother will be more than willing to put a bolter round in his back to garner the favor of the dark gods or to feel any sort of emotion. As the Traitor Legions descend into madness, hatred and rage they begin to lose the Heresy. Horus failed to take the throne, thus, they failed. (Yes, the Empire is shattered but, it remains while Horus was destroyed). The Space Wolves are different than the World Eaters in vastly different ways. The comparison is a bit ridiculous considering the portrayal of both in the HH series. Angron is a raving lunatic even before his fall to chaos. Leman Russ while portraying the ignorant barbarian is more intelligent than he's given credit for. The wulfen are culled from the flock and isolated while the raving lunatics drunk off combat stims are encouraged in the World Eaters. After the basic "both legions are savage in combat" your comparison falls to pieces. Dorn's progeny are portrayed in the HH so far as having no flaws. The Ultramarines are portrayed similarly. (Not an Ultramarine hater by any means btw don't want to turn it into a Ultra hate thread). I hope as the story progresses they are shown to be more dynamic Legions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242436-the-iron-within/page/3/#findComment-2940009 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 The traitor legions all weaken themselves with their fall to chaos. Debatable. Many legions massively benefited from Chaos' gifts during Heresy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242436-the-iron-within/page/3/#findComment-2940029 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mac the knife Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 The traitor legions all weaken themselves with their fall to chaos. Debatable. Many legions massively benefited from Chaos' gifts during Heresy. Yes, it is debatable. All my posts are my opinion. Chaos demanded that they forswear their bonds of loyalty and brotherhood in return for the promise of power. Yes the legions became more powerful but they lost themselves or control of that power once they had it. Forswearing ones bonds of loyalty is to willingly sacrifice that which can never be taken, but must be given away. Their honor. Once they had no honor they had no reason to remain loyal to anything but themselves. Meaning, in my mind, that they were no longer a legion but a large number of individuals. While an individual can defeat a soldier. In a combined conflict a group of individuals will fall to the combined might of a professional military. Back to the OPs point though I really enjoyed the story and thought it helped provide some insight into loyalist Iron Warriors. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242436-the-iron-within/page/3/#findComment-2940109 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Not sure describing Angron as a "raving lunatic" is fair. From what has been written about him in the HH series so far it's more like he has to endure agonising pain shooting straight to his brain pretty much all the time, so his willpower must be second to none for him to put up with such pain. I agree he isnt much like Russ, but I would argue that Angron is the more disciplined. In regards to accepting Chaos leads to the traitor legions weakening, look at the Gal Vorbak. Put 30 of them up agaisnt 30 Assualt marines of a loyalist legion and the Gal vorbak will win. In the short term I believe falling to chaos made the traitor legions stronger, but in current 40k terms it has almost crippled some warbands in regards to numbers of marines, number of ships etc. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242436-the-iron-within/page/3/#findComment-2940120 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 @Mac the knife: You are making it sound like all unity is shattered. During Horus' reign there was no such thing. After him it does not matter since this is about Horus Heresy. To me only Emperor's Children suffered that ailement because their Primarch was possessed and the legion was actively sabotaged by Fabius Bile. All other legions were committed to the act. Some became even more efficient like Word Bearers and Iron Warriors. And i doubt that the bonds of brotherhood and honor are abolished as much as you claim. Not from traitors' perspective. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242436-the-iron-within/page/3/#findComment-2940128 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lorne Walkier Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 One of the best attributes of the Astartes is they were made to work well in groups. Their whole is more then the sum of their parts. Unlike the Custodes who were not much more the a group of individuals. I feel this trait goes deeper then just squads. Bigger then chapter and even Legion. When two legions went to war side by side, they were a multiplier to each other. This was possible because their bond of brotherhood crossed legion lines. When the Traitors fell they lost this. On Istvaan III the Loyalists fought together while the Traitors fought one at a time. To bring it back to the OP, In the Story Iron Within, the combination of the Ultra Marine + Iron Warriors were >>> then the Sons of Horus + Iron Warriors. Its like [uM x IW] >>> [soH + IW]. This to me is why the Loyalists are greater then the Traitors. Even if the Black Crusade is led by Abaddon, a Night Lords warband would be in it for themselves. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242436-the-iron-within/page/3/#findComment-2940293 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 One of the best attributes of the Astartes is they were made to work well in groups. Their whole is more then the sum of their parts. Unlike the Custodes who were not much more the a group of individuals. I feel this trait goes deeper then just squads. Bigger then chapter and even Legion. When two legions went to war side by side, they were a multiplier to each other. This was possible because their bond of brotherhood crossed legion lines. When the Traitors fell they lost this. On Istvaan III the Loyalists fought together while the Traitors fought one at a time. To bring it back to the OP, In the Story Iron Within, the combination of the Ultra Marine + Iron Warriors were >>> then the Sons of Horus + Iron Warriors. Its like [uM x IW] >>> [soH + IW]. This to me is why the Loyalists are greater then the Traitors. Even if the Black Crusade is led by Abaddon, a Night Lords warband would be in it for themselves. Very observant, and this is one of the most important (but sadly never mentioned) reasons for why the Codex Astartes is so important. The only reason why a Space Marines Chapter from one side of the galaxy can even co-operate in any meaningful way with any Imperial Giard regiment from the other side of the galaxy is because they have the same doctrinal foundations. (In 1st Edition The Codex Astartes was for all Imperial forces, though in 2nd Edition he was made specifically the book for Space Marines, while the Inperial Guard got the Tactica Imperialis.) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242436-the-iron-within/page/3/#findComment-2941615 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Shady Posted December 15, 2011 Share Posted December 15, 2011 One of the best attributes of the Astartes is they were made to work well in groups. Their whole is more then the sum of their parts. Unlike the Custodes who were not much more the a group of individuals. I feel this trait goes deeper then just squads. Bigger then chapter and even Legion. When two legions went to war side by side, they were a multiplier to each other. This was possible because their bond of brotherhood crossed legion lines. When the Traitors fell they lost this. On Istvaan III the Loyalists fought together while the Traitors fought one at a time. To bring it back to the OP, In the Story Iron Within, the combination of the Ultra Marine + Iron Warriors were >>> then the Sons of Horus + Iron Warriors. Its like [uM x IW] >>> [soH + IW]. This to me is why the Loyalists are greater then the Traitors. Even if the Black Crusade is led by Abaddon, a Night Lords warband would be in it for themselves. Very observant, and this is one of the most important (but sadly never mentioned) reasons for why the Codex Astartes is so important. The only reason why a Space Marines Chapter from one side of the galaxy can even co-operate in any meaningful way with any Imperial Giard regiment from the other side of the galaxy is because they have the same doctrinal foundations. (In 1st Edition The Codex Astartes was for all Imperial forces, though in 2nd Edition he was made specifically the book for Space Marines, while the Inperial Guard got the Tactica Imperialis.) And we should see how this works when 'Void Stalker' comes out. As ADB has said, he'll show exactly how a Legion fails to take on a chapter after the end of the HH. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242436-the-iron-within/page/3/#findComment-2944644 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted December 15, 2011 Share Posted December 15, 2011 I am not sure he will show "how" they do it, merely give an example that they do it. Also, IIRC the Night Lords will fight a large number of Chapters, not "a Chapter". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242436-the-iron-within/page/3/#findComment-2944805 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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