Use of the term 'Space Marine' in universe

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

But see, Adeptus Astartes literally means Adepts of the Stars. That's why you have the Adeptus Mechanicus, the Adeptus Terra, the Adeptus Astrotelepathica, and so on. To call them Astartes would be calling them "of the stars". That wouldn't really make sense. Yes, Astartes sounds better, but it doesn't work. I personally think we should make a third word/phrase, but that's me.

[Doghouse]

Bit groggy with a cold right now but hopefully this makes sense...

 

I'm more in the Astartes camp to be honest because it has become a fairly common term in the literature and is a bit more mature then the traditional space marines which was coined when the game had more of a camper, in-joke, eighties 2000ad feel.

 

Just because it literally means "of the stars" doesn't mean that it no longer works as a designation for the marines. If you look at it from the viewpoint of an imperial citizen (regardless of whether it's 30k or 40k) who may never leave their world of birth to say they are of the stars is very fitting in my mind and makes perfect sense.

 

Adeptus Astartes (or as they should be known really in 30k Legiones Astartes) works well as an organisational name and I really like the abbreviation personally because it makes sense to me. If it is a term that is purely being used in the game universe lore to describe a marine and not being used to describe any traveler from space then it makes perfect sense. It has a sense of grandeur and maturity about it.

 

Having said that I can understand that from a real world IP issues point of view it could cause confusion as they have been selling Space Marines as Space Marines since the beginning and it has become a brand of it's own within the GW organistion.

The BL novels are becoming a first contact point now that they have grown in popularity and become more available in mainstream literature which means if I read this book on space marines and thought I'd like to learn more about the table top game then I'm potentially going to initially be a little confused as to why the Astartes are called Space Marines. It makes sense from a business point of view to just call them space marines in the books as a universal brand across all avenues of sales.

 

What I would do to get around this is to place a greater sense of weight and meaning on the term Space Marine in the novels, explain how it was an old term used to describe them that has endured through the ages and has firmly become tradition as the most recognisable term for a marine throughout the Imperium and beyond. I'd play on what it means to be a "marine" in every sense of the word and invent a sense of grandeur and pride in the term Space Marine, turn it into a name that is truly feared by their enemies and spoken in awe by those that they defend.

[Doghouse]

Just to clarify my point a little here (I hope :) ).

 

The term marine can mean the following:

 

Of or relating to the sea: marine exploration.

 

Native to, inhabiting, or formed by the sea: marine animals.

 

Of or relating to shipping or maritime affairs.

 

Of or relating to sea navigation; nautical: a marine chart. See Synonyms at nautical.

 

Of or relating to troops that serve at sea as well as on land, specifically the U.S. Marine Corps.

 

A soldier serving on a ship or at a naval installation.

 

A member of the U.S. Marine Corps.

 

The mercantile or naval ships or shipping fleet of a country.

 

The governmental department in charge of naval affairs in some nations.

 

A painting or photograph of the sea.

But when someone says "Marine" in a modern battle setting most will think U.S. Marine rather than say a painting of the sea because of the context of how the term is being used. I'd say the same could be said for Astartes.

[Captain Idaho]

Just to clarify my point a little here (I hope :D ).

 

The term marine can mean the following:

 

Of or relating to the sea: marine exploration.

 

Native to, inhabiting, or formed by the sea: marine animals.

 

Of or relating to shipping or maritime affairs.

 

Of or relating to sea navigation; nautical: a marine chart. See Synonyms at nautical.

 

Of or relating to troops that serve at sea as well as on land, specifically the U.S. Marine Corps.

 

A soldier serving on a ship or at a naval installation.

 

A member of the U.S. Marine Corps.

 

The mercantile or naval ships or shipping fleet of a country.

 

The governmental department in charge of naval affairs in some nations.

 

A painting or photograph of the sea.

But when someone says "Marine" in a modern battle setting most will think U.S. Marine rather than say a painting of the sea because of the context of how the term is being used. I'd say the same could be said for Astartes.

 

<_< Your last sentence confuses me seeing as you are from the UK! I hear Marine and I think Royal Marine... ;)

 

Marines are traditionally soliders who fight from ships, from a military perspective, which is the only really relevant perspective for the entirely warlike Space Marines, who aren't a governmental department, an inanimate object like a painting or all from the sea.

 

;) :P

[Doghouse]

Yeah but you're missing the point mate, I'm talking about the context of how the word is used. It's possible that Astartes could be the same, as in a noun that is used to describe a wider range of things in the same way that marine is used. Astartes would be a perfectly acceptable noun used to describe a space marine if this is the case in the same way that the term marine is used to describe US or Royal Marines.

The point is that real real world term Marine could easily be explained using the list of explanations I've given above to mean "of the sea" so as this is the case why can't the same be said of Astartes? <_<

[Cleon]

Just to clarify my point a little here (I hope :D ).

 

The term marine can mean the following:

 

Of or relating to the sea: marine exploration.

 

Native to, inhabiting, or formed by the sea: marine animals.

 

Of or relating to shipping or maritime affairs.

 

Of or relating to sea navigation; nautical: a marine chart. See Synonyms at nautical.

 

Of or relating to troops that serve at sea as well as on land, specifically the U.S. Marine Corps.

 

A soldier serving on a ship or at a naval installation.

 

A member of the U.S. Marine Corps.

 

The mercantile or naval ships or shipping fleet of a country.

 

The governmental department in charge of naval affairs in some nations.

 

A painting or photograph of the sea.

But when someone says "Marine" in a modern battle setting most will think U.S. Marine rather than say a painting of the sea because of the context of how the term is being used. I'd say the same could be said for Astartes.

 

<_< Your last sentence confuses me seeing as you are from the UK! I hear Marine and I think Royal Marine... ;)

 

Marines are traditionally soliders who fight from ships, from a military perspective, which is the only really relevant perspective for the entirely warlike Space Marines, who aren't a governmental department, an inanimate object like a painting or all from the sea.

 

;) :P

 

I'm from the UK too, when I hear marine, I think US Marines, when I hear Commando, I think Royal Marine.

 

I think that what's missing in the Horus Heresy series now is a detached term which allows reference to the individual without being part of the collective. In fact we have one - the term "Battle Brother", which fits the gap we're looking at but is just too clunky and doesn't work in a novel.

 

Astartes worked in that role from a sound point of view, but as had been said doesn't fit with what the way GW want to use the term.

 

I don't know what to use in it's place, but for me Space Marine just doesn't work as an individual term. I can see a squad (or a group) of Space Marines, but not an individual Space Marine it just feels too collective.

[WeaponAdept]

Two points coming in from me.

 

Astartes mean "of the stars" and is incorrect to use without it's prefix. BUT words often loose their original meaning through colloquial use. The word

Infantry has it's origins in Spanish and french to describe a force composed of those too inexperienced or low in rank for cavalry, commonly refered to as infanteria and infante: "Youths". The latin term 'infantem' meaning "infants collectively" also describe the rank and file soldiers.

 

Modern soldiers are not inexperienced, expendable or exclusivley young but we still use the term 'Infantry' to describe our fighting troops.

It would not be unreasonable to suggest that as the word Infantry has changed in meaning over the course of 400 - 500 years that the term Astartes

might be used differently after 10000 years.

 

 

My other point is purely asthetic. "Astartes" conjures up several homonyms (words that sound alike but share no meaning)

Astute, Stride, Asteroid, Assoicate, Stalwart, Magistrates etc.

 

You can't argue the point that they are Marines in every sense of the military term. Space is the lame part of the name.

 

Void Marines?

Abyss Marines?

Infinity Marines?

Superficial Expance Marines?