Who are these guys?

[Born of Iron]

On the picture of the emperor and horus squaring off. Who are the marines are the right side of the picture. The ones in a black with red. Thanks for any help.

 

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http:/...wAQ&dur=334

[Olis]

Jury's out on that one, brother. Some say they are Sons of Horus, others say they are pro-imperial troops (take your pick which kind). :tu:

[Grimdarkness]

It's hard to say but If thats a back banner behind the emp they could be first company imperial fist (black templars) on the other hand they do look like the two bare headed marines behind horus.

[Coryphaus 101]

I would say they're the eight but they weren't on the Vengeful Spirit. Maybe a lost legion?

[Aqatone]

There has been a 5+ page thread on this already. They are the artists (Adrian Smith) own interpretation of the custodes. Probably the reason why he didn't make them gold was not to distract from the Emperor being the main focal point in burnished gold. If that isn't satisfactory then just make them Imperial Fists, it doesn't really matter too much I don't think. but the general consensus was Custodes :tu:

[Grimdarkness]

There has been a 5+ page thread on this already. They are the artists (Adrian Smith) own interpretation of the custodes. Probably the reason why he didn't make them gold was not to distract from the Emperor being the main focal point in burnished gold. If that isn't satisfactory then just make them Imperial Fists, it doesn't really matter too much I don't think. but the general consensus was Custodes :D

 

 

 

 

True but the old fluff dose not mention custodes as far as I know and the new fluff has them holding the webway portal.

 

GW retcons are even screwing up art work now. :D

[Aqatone]

It is artistic licence, it doesn't necessarily need to adhere to the fluff in many regards. :D

[Sons of Horus]

artistic license indeed, especially since everyone else on the Vengeful Spirit's bridge was dead during the final battle between Horus and the Emperor.

[Castiel]

++Spoilers if you haven't read The Outcast Dead++

 

 

Just like all the Thunder Warriors were killed in the last Battle of the Unification wars, I wonder?

 

[Brother Dimetrius]

While it makes for a good conspiracy theory, Occam's razor does prefer the artistic license theory :yes:

[Castiel]

Yeah, just thought I'd bung it in as food for thought, I don't actually believe it was like that. ^_^

[Wulf Vengis]

Im sitting here staring and squinting at this pic and cant help but notice that the guy closest to Horus has the red eye of Horus on his right pauldron. After some painful observations of the guys also behind Horus Im seeing the Eye of Horus on the chest plate of the guy to Horus immediate left. I would have to say that the guys on Horus side of the throne room are Sons of Horus. The banner hanging on the Emperors side of the room blatantly bares the Luna Wolves heraldry. The guys on the Emps side of the room are marked by his personal icon the golden eagle head. IIRC that was the icon of his personal guard and of the Thunder Warriors. Also the guy directly behind the Emp (gold eagle on his face plate) has lightning bolts on his boltgun more evidence of the Thunder Warriors presence. However there is one guy behind the Emps gray guys (waaay in the back you can see his head and right shoulder) that appears to be wearing a golden right pauldron (just behind his head), I would assume that guy is a Custodes. This pic is obviously on Horus ship in the throne room I dont think theres any debate about that though.

 

EDIT: Saw more heraldry to point out.

[Eerie]

Of what use would it have been for the Emp to keep Thunder Warriors around (other than nostalgia?). They were inferior to Astartes and Custodes, so a secret army of basically weakly wimps, or what?

 

I think the picture is meant to be an artistic representation no matter how you look it. In real-world terms, when this picture was painted, the visual style etc. of the Custodes was not as pinned down as it is today. From an in-universe perspective, the picture is not meant to exactly replicate the situation as it was, it is an artistic representation. Hence the soldiers everywhere even though the writings suggest Horus and the Emperor were alone.

 

Compare it to classic battle paintings. For example, this painting (Wikimedia Commons). The Battle of Aboukir of 1899 in reality surely looked not even closely to what we see in this picture, with Napoleon Bonaparte at the helm of his troops, sword drawn and standing out like a hero of legend. Same goes for our "Horus vs Big-E" face off. It's not meant to be a "photo", exactly depicting the actual situation. It's meant to be a painting.

[Castiel]

++Spoilers if you haven't read The Outcast Dead++

 

 

Except the Thunder Warriors in the Outcast Dead kicked the Astartes' arses. They were only inferior in that they weren't designed to live as long. So not weakly wimps, just too short-lived.

 

[Olis]

Of what use would it have been for the Emp to keep Thunder Warriors around (other than nostalgia?). They were inferior to Astartes and Custodes, so a secret army of basically weakly wimps, or what?

 

Now, not trying to derail the thread or anything, but when has the Thunder Warriors been referred to as inferior to regular astartes? Sure they were proto-astartes but afaik the astartes were created for 'production on a mass scale' and iirc the Thunder Warriors were around before the primarchs. Astartes were certainly inferior to the primarchs, as they were created, ostensibly, from them. :yes:

 

(I would, however, concede that Custodes were superior, considering they were arguably superior to astartes.)

[Wulf Vengis]

I wasnt saying that this isnt an artists representation. I was merely stating that in this photo the artist has represented these other factions besides Horus and the Emperor, and was simply attempting to explain how I came to my conclusions as to the Identity of those other factions within the photo.

 

As far as Thunder Warriors being more capable than Astartes AFAIK we dont have any "actual" fluff to base this per se (I could be wrong if so Im sure Valerian will come and correct me :yes: ). The Lexicanum is also basically useless ob that topic, however the 40Kwiki has this to say about them

Wrought to be living weapons, the Thunder Warriors were known to be physically stronger, more savage and more potent in combat than the later Astartes, though they were not as long-lived.

But we can take this with a grain of salt since its the wiki and not official citation, that is of course if no one comes to correct me. (Still looking at you Valerian.)

 

EDIT: From what I understand Custodes are far superior to Astartes but are far more difficult to create and so the Big E only made so many of them.

[dcye]

Vengis, you need to read The Outcast Dead. Soon.

[Wulf Vengis]

Vengis, you need to read The Outcast Dead. Soon.

I am unfortunately only on book four and dont have access to them. Not to mention my friend skipped book two when he was loaning them to me and just gave three. I called him out on it but he decided to just say three was better...what tool. I would also like to start over and read straight through so yes I agree I do need to read it but Ill get there.

I however figure that youre saying this because it would drastically alter my arguments. If thats the case please correct me so that Ill know for future referrance.

[dcye]

Castiel posted the basics earlier, you just need to highlight his blacked out text.

[Castiel]

read the second one, the first might spoil the book a bit too much!

[Valerian]

Ha, appreciate the vote of confidence Brother Wulf. However, from Studio fluff, I don't remember any specific details about the Thunder Warriors, other than that they were essentially proto-Marines, the results of the Emperor's efforts in human augmentation prior to the the Primarch project.

 

You've piqued my interest though, so if I get some free time I might see what I can find in the old sources.

 

Regards,

 

V

[Wulf Vengis]

I dont mind spoilers you could tell me verbatim how the book goes and when I get to that part Ill read it anyways :o

 

Well V youve proved me wrong more than enough times to have my vote for Teller of the Sagas. I hope you can find something on this topic though as it would be fascinating to know.

[dcye]

I'm gonna post spoiler tags on this just for those who haven't read it yet. All you have to do is highlight the black parts below.

 

 

Basically, a few Thunder Warriors still live, and they beat the absolute bejesus out of a group of Marines. Their inferiority isn't a reflection on their strength relative to the Legions, it's in relation to the fact that they were designed by the Emperor to be short lived and to deteriorate. They aren't neccesarily conclusively more powerful than Astartes, as none of the Astartes are armoured or with their actual weapons, but they do get their asses handed to them. Bear in mind, one of these Marines beat a Custodes to death with his bare hands earlier in the book as well.

 

 

I think this book may challenge a lot of your conceptions about the relative power of Thunder Warriors, Adeptus Astartes and the Custodes as well.

[Grimdarkness]

I'm gonna post spoiler tags on this just for those who haven't read it yet. All you have to do is highlight the black parts below.

 

 

Basically, a few Thunder Warriors still live, and they beat the absolute bejesus out of a group of Marines. Their inferiority isn't a reflection on their strength relative to the Legions, it's in relation to the fact that they were designed by the Emperor to be short lived and to deteriorate. They aren't neccesarily conclusively more powerful than Astartes, as none of the Astartes are armoured or with their actual weapons, but they do get their asses handed to them. Bear in mind, one of these Marines beat a Custodes to death with his bare hands earlier in the book as well.

 

 

I think this book may challenge a lot of your conceptions about the relative power of Thunder Warriors, Adeptus Astartes and the Custodes as well.

 

 

 

Yeah but a wounded custode now doing 2nd line duty. So take it with a grain of salt.

 

[Castiel]

I'm gonna post spoiler tags on this just for those who haven't read it yet. All you have to do is highlight the black parts below.

 

 

Basically, a few Thunder Warriors still live, and they beat the absolute bejesus out of a group of Marines. Their inferiority isn't a reflection on their strength relative to the Legions, it's in relation to the fact that they were designed by the Emperor to be short lived and to deteriorate. They aren't neccesarily conclusively more powerful than Astartes, as none of the Astartes are armoured or with their actual weapons, but they do get their asses handed to them. Bear in mind, one of these Marines beat a Custodes to death with his bare hands earlier in the book as well.

 

 

I think this book may challenge a lot of your conceptions about the relative power of Thunder Warriors, Adeptus Astartes and the Custodes as well.

 

 

 

Yeah but a wounded custode now doing 2nd line duty. So take it with a grain of salt.

 

 

 

 

That's true, but it is still an impressive feat for an unarmoured Astartes. It would have been interesting if Dhakal had fought Saturnalia, the outcome would have been very interesting!