Hey everyone look at the new guy!

[WyrdWolf]

Hey, I just started playing 40k about 2 months ago. I bought the black reach set and then saw the wolfguard terminator pack and instantly fell in love, I think it was the lack of helmets that did it, so much more personality than vanilla marines. Anywho onto the real question here. So I've just finished painting most of my wolves up to a level that i now consider really playable, I've been playing for a few months and pretty much all of them were painted stock fenris grey with the boltguns painted boltgun metal, but this is besides the point, I'm trying to come up with an idea for an offshoot company. where i've only been playing for a few months my knowledge of fluff is somewhat limited, but here's what I've got so far. I want to make a lost company from the Wolf Brothers chapter. It was said that at the time they were split the wolf brothers got half of the current space wolves chapter. This offshoot was later purged by the inquisition due to mutation of the wulfen gene. What I propose to do is make a company that was on assignment way off somewhere else, and having heard of the destruction of their brothers gone into hiding as well as developed a great hatred for the inquisition forces specifically (this works for me as one of my friends has been stomping my face with his grey knights since i started playing.) I've got more lore kicking around in my head, but how does that sound for a basis?

[Arez]

Welcome to the fang!

 

Have an ale and make your self at home.

 

 

Dont fall asleep around forte.just a heads up

 

 

 

as for the fluff... you pretty much describes a lost Space Wolf comapny.We(the wolves) already hate the inquisition.If you want fluff google Space Wolves and click on the warhammer 40k lexicanum.I learnt a lot from there.

Your idea could work.you'll just need to have a lot of Wulfen models.My suggestion would be make Wulfen and use them as BloodClaws.

[Olis]

Hail and welcome, brother!

[WyrdWolf]

I was actually thinking about that. Should I just do a "counts as" sort of thing, since there can only be 1 actual wulfen per squad? Also, I don't know a whole lot about the wolf brothers, but just because the official records say "problem with the wulfen gene" doesn't neccesarily mean that all of the companies in the chapter had the issue? I appreciat the help, and the ale.

[Wulf Vengis]

Pick up a copy of Battle of the Fang if youre curious for more info regarding the Wolf Brothers chapter.

 

And welcome to the Fang brother, ales over there if your stein goes dry.

[TiguriusX]

You don't need to use the controversial and little known Wolf Brothers for your fluff. The SW in general dislike the inquisition.

 

How about a lost company that split following the battle for Armageddon? Read the codex to see how pissed that made Logan. You could even claim you were given his secret blessing to hunt the Inquisition forces responsible.

[Wulfebane]

I agree with TiguriusX. Anyone that comes to this forum asking permission/advice on making a Wolf Brothers off-shoot of some sort always get barked at for going against indoctrinated canon lore (where the belief is held that all the WBs were exterminated). Ultimately it gets resolved with a few "it's your army, do whatever" and the thread vanishes shortly thereafter. Despite that, you WILL raise some hackles over it, so be ready.

 

However, like TiguriusX said, the Lost Companies already provide a SW player with such a loophole, where we don't have to finagle a way to use the SW codex without prescribing to one of the current Great Companies.

 

tl;dr - you're better off going with a Lost Company over a Wolf Brother variant to avoid issues.

[Chris Wraight]

However, like TiguriusX said, the Lost Companies already provide a SW player with such a loophole, where we don't have to finagle a way to use the SW codex without prescribing to one of the current Great Companies.

 

That's true, but it's really fine to use Wolf Brothers as well. When I was doing the research for Battle of the Fang I spoke to quite a few people at GW/BL about what the deal was with the Wolf Brothers. In game-terms, the Wolf Brothers, it turned out, had always been intended to provide a Space Wolf-like Chapter for those who didn't want to use an established Great Company. In BotF and some other stories,

some Wolf Brothers are shown to have been corrupted by Chaos, but it shouldn't be inferred from that that they all were/are.

The fate of the majority of the Chapter is unknown, though, so there's room for coming up with your own lore using them.

 

The issue's not exactly clear-cut: one White Dwarf article from a while back has the Wolf Brothers all disappearing into the webway after a bunch of Eldar (gene-seed, fleet and all, apparently). Some people prefer that storyline, and as a result dislike the treatment of them in Fang and elsewhere. That's all fine too, though it seems pretty clear to me that the WD account is out of sync with what was intended for the WB, and what appears in the majority of the background.

 

tl;dr: If you want to run with a Great Company of Wolf Brothers, don't let anyone tell you that you can't. :tu:

[hendrik]

 

you might want to know the space wolves fought against the wolf brothers in battle of the fang after they had all/a decent amount of them turned to chaos/became mutated by tzeentch. in the end they destroyed them from orbit right before withdrawing to the fang in haste to releave the siege

 

 

besides that, welcome to the fang whelp! have an ale on me and sit down chap!

 

as for our problems with the inquisition. we don't hate the inquisition,nor will we take offensive measures against them as long as they keep true. what do i mean by this? there are only a couple of our quarrels with the inquisition known, most notable of all armageddon but here's a list that'll give you some more insight:

 

-armageddon:the adepts decreed that all records of the invasion should be purged and that every citizen who had heard about the demaonic taint be mindwhiped, sterilised and send to forced labour camps in the south. millions of loyal soldiers who had fought with us would have to spend the rest of their lives in slavery. logan flew into a rage yet unheard of and it was only ulrik's council that managed to keep him, in control. thus grew our fued with the adepts of the administratum (not the inquisition). i also belive there was a quarrel between us and the grey knights because we refused to be mindwhiped.

 

-daemonbane war: we helped a radical inquisitor who had just saved an entire planet from the daemonic hordes escape from a puritan inquisitor who thought the methods to be herectical. war was declared between the wolves and the ordo malleus. eventually we desist but not before the radical inquisitor has escaped

 

-the ecclesiarchy visits the fang, briefly :tu: : the ecclasia decides they want to intervene on fenris after they've heard rumours there is worshipping of pagan gods on fenris, as soon as they come near we fire on them. 1 year later the ecclesiarchy and 3 orders of the sistsers of battle lay siege to fenris for 3 weeks, untill they decide to let sleeping dogs lie and retreat.

 

basicly it boils down to this, once you start intervening with our business or start doing unneeded hostile acts towards our allies/citizens we will act. we've waged war against the flesh tearers right after we fought with them as allies. why? they didn't stop when all the heretics were dead but they continued to butcher loyal citizens

 

it's exactly this stuff what attracts a lot of people. the space wolves aren't the defenders of the imperium, they are the defenders of the imperiums citizens! ;)

[WyrdWolf]

okay, thanks guys, I really appreciate the help. As far as the wolf brothers getting COMPLETELY destroyed weren't there a few that turned to the chaos gods? I'm not sure when that happened but i'm pretty sure i read that on the wiki or lexicanum or both.

[Valerian]

That's true, but it's really fine to use Wolf Brothers as well. When I was doing the research for Battle of the Fang I spoke to quite a few people at GW/BL about what the deal was with the Wolf Brothers. In game-terms, the Wolf Brothers, it turned out, had always been intended to provide a Space Wolf-like Chapter for those who didn't want to use an established Great Company. In BotF and some other stories,

some Wolf Brothers are shown to have been corrupted by Chaos, but it shouldn't be inferred from that that they all were/are.

The fate of the majority of the Chapter is unknown, though, so there's room for coming up with your own lore using them.

 

The issue's not exactly clear-cut: one White Dwarf article from a while back has the Wolf Brothers all disappearing into the webway after a bunch of Eldar (gene-seed, fleet and all, apparently).

 

I've provided that excerpt for everyone's benefit:

 

Early Third Edition Era

 

 

Note: In the early years of the Third Edition era, Games Workshop experimented with a new "mini-dex" format. The mini-dex for the Space Wolves was not intended to be a stand-alone product, and required that it be used in conjunction with the Codex Space Marines. The size of the Codex was cut by about 50 pages, so the vast majority of the background material was left out of the Codex, with the bulk of the publication comprising only the army list, rules, and equipment descriptions. All of the "fluff" was provided instead in three consecutive White Dwarf magazines, which coincided with the release of the Space Wolves mini-dex (White Dwarf issues 244-246, from the summer of 2000 CE).

 

 

From US White Dwarf 245 (June 2000):

 

 

The Wolf Brothers

(excerpted from the calleria M37)

 

...And ranging 'cross Yahals plain

The Eldar turned at bay.

They stood and fought, shed blood

And burned

A thousand men that day.

 

Then Wolf Brothers came

To slay them all,

Bloody swords raised, howling,

fangs gleaming

Answering the warriors' call.

 

No alien could stand against

So fierce a foe,

No trick would turn them aside.

On they came, unstoppable

To strike a deadly blow.

 

Turning, fleeing the Eldar ran

Through their portal

Beyond the reach of man.

Undaunted Wolf Brothers

Pursued them unto realms immortal

 

Though aliens were defeated,

Their fury tamed,

The ill-fated Wolf Brothers

Were lost, mourned

Never seen again...

 

Some people prefer that storyline, and as a result dislike the treatment of them in Fang and elsewhere. That's all fine too, though it seems pretty clear to me that the WD account is out of sync with what was intended for the WB, and what appears in the majority of the background.

 

Here is the thing Chris, I've been following the Space Wolves lore since the very beginning. In addition to a great memory for this stuff, I've got a collection of all of the early books and White Dwarfs. Other than this excerpt provided above on the Wolf Brothers, there was nothing else in the fluff that addressed what had actually happened to them, and when. Until this snippet, we had only been given the enigmatic description that they were "ill-fated", and we also knew that they no longer existed; they were simply gone, a distant memory in the history of the 40k universe. Where is this "majority of the background" that you are referring to? Perhaps you thought it was out of sync, but you were the one that changed what was already there, and created the new story that they had somehow gone awry and had to be destroyed, or whatever. I'm sure that you did it with official sanction, or support, or at least a head-nod from Alan Merrit, but I don't have to be happy about it.

 

Regards,

 

Valerian

[Niiai]

You are free to do as you want.

 

I propose a great lord on some quest with some mutations in his ranks.

 

Othervice, you can alwasy check out the 13th crusade space wolves during abbadons crusade. They where mad hardcore and had a few mutations after a while.

[Forté]

Welcome Brother and I see Arez 'Greenhorn' has already welcomed you to the whelp ranks (and Ill get you Greenhorn.....I'm bidding my time). Have an ale or three.

 

Looks like you've had good advice already so not much I can add but listen to the gray beards (Hendrik for example) and don't drink Greenhorns milk <_<

[Wulfebane]

You are free to do as you want.

 

I propose a great lord on some quest with some mutations in his ranks.

 

Othervice, you can alwasy check out the 13th crusade space wolves during abbadons crusade. They where mad hardcore and had a few mutations after a while.

 

The word "mutation" bothers me, crossing it off as some sort of Chaos taint. All the lore I'm aware of claim that Space Wolves go feral and become Wulfen before they fall to Chaos, which is why it's rumored they're the best defense at the Eye of Terror and why they haven't had any more foundings since the Wolf Brothers.

[Wulf Vengis]

Valerian I normally wouldnt argue with you about fluff (your library is far superior to mine afterall) but I was just flipping through my 2nd ed dex and though it doesnt state what happened to the WB it hints that

Perhaps the High Lords recognized the problems of genetic instability that would plague the genetic seed of Leman Russ, giving rise in later times to the terrible curse of the Wulfen, and therefore decided against dividing and further spreading the Space Wolves genetic base.

And it pretty much says the same thing in the 5th ed dex (exchanging the words genetic seed of LR with legacy of LR). It follows that line with this one

Perhaps Leman Russ had no intention of breaking apart his mighty legion so that they could be divided and conquored if necessary.

Ive never believed the WD quote to be the end all be all of the WB but a combination of the two. Genetic instability made it easy for the Inquisition to target the WB, and would have made it equally easy for the forces of Chaos to taint the WB in body and soul. Whatever was left of them most likely chased the eldar into the webway and perhaps if there were any left they may have been welcomed back into the Fang. But its all just stipulation and theory made from reading between the lines (which may not actually even be there to read between mind you).

Now with all that said we dont know any real info on the WB such as colors, heraldry or pack markings. Nor do we know their "homeworld" or any names of their leaders or craft. All in all I say go with what you think will be best for you.

 

EDIT: OT: @Chris: I really enjoyed BotF from start to finish thank you for that book. Now if I were to say I wanted an autograph for my copy of BotF to go with my autographed copy of Prospero Burns. How might I go about getting you to sign my copy? :yes:

[Valerian]

Valerian I normally wouldnt argue with you about fluff (your library is far superior to mine afterall) but I was just flipping through my 2nd ed dex and though it doesnt state what happened to the WB it hints that

Perhaps the High Lords recognized the problems of genetic instability that would plague the genetic seed of Leman Russ, giving rise in later times to the terrible curse of the Wulfen, and therefore decided against dividing and further spreading the Space Wolves genetic base.

And it pretty much says the same thing in the 5th ed dex (exchanging the words genetic seed of LR with legacy of LR). It follows that line with this one

Perhaps Leman Russ had no intention of breaking apart his mighty legion so that they could be divided and conquored if necessary.

 

No problem Wulf, perhaps I can change your interpretation of those lines, however.

 

The latest codex states only that, "The Space Wolves were divided only once, creating the ill-fated Wolfbrothers Chapter. Perhaps the High Lords recognized the problems of genetic instability that would plague the legacy of Leman Russ..." It would be easy to assume that the Wolfbrothers were considered "ill-fated" because of the "genetic instability." However, the genetic instability is just the explanation for why the Space Wolves were not used to create additional successor Chapters. The original Wolfbrothers weren't new Marines, they were just split off from the original Legion to cut the size down to something more in accordance with the intent behind Guilliman's Codex Astartes. That first split in the 2nd Founding was more or less "mandatory", as Russ eventually agreed to it like all of the other Primarchs. All of the foundings after the 2nd, however, create something "new"; additional Marines populating a new Chapter based off of the genetic lineage of an already existing Chapter. This process spreads a genetic legacy, as new Chapters are grown. The Space Wolves have put up with genetic instability and the "Curse of the Wulfen" for 10,000 years, so there is no good reason to spread the Curse beyond our First-Founding Chapter/Legion. Why take a genetic line with obvious problems, when they can take "pure" genetic material from the Ultramarines, for example, to create new Chapters?

 

This is, in my opinion, what that line about genetic instability is about. There wasn't, until BotF, material that stated that the Wolfbrothers were any more unstable than what we know the Space Wolves were, and always have been. There is also a quote that says the Canis Helix has been responsible for the deaths of millions of Fenrisians. We also know that the instability was so prevalent even within the original Legion that an entire pre-Heresy Great Company (number 13 of 13 total), was comprised of Space Wolves that had succumbed to the Curse of the Wulfen. Our Space Wolves are already known to be made from unstable genetic material; again, until BotF, we had no indication that the Wolfbrothers were any worse off than any of the Sons of Russ.

 

Before BotF, the fluff on this was relatively simple:

 

 

1. Whereas the large Ultramarines Legion which avoided taking too many losses in the Heresy broke up into 24 new Chapters (including the Ultramarines Chapter and 23 others), during the Second founding, the Space Wolves Legion only broke into 2, the Space Wolves and Wolf Brothers Chapters, because the Legion was small to begin with, suffered losses during Sacking of Prospero and chasing Abaddon into the Eye of Terror.

 

2. Over the years the Adeptus Mechanicus who oversees the tithes and monitors the purity of geneseed reports to the High Lords, recommends Ultramarines geneseed for use in later foundings because it is exceptionally pure. This is how greater than half of the 1,000 Chapters come from UM stock.

 

3. The geneseed of Leman Russ is genetically unstable. Space Wolves sometimes suffer from the Curse of the Wulfen. Legend has it that an entire Great Company suffered from the Curse and disappeared into the Eye of Terror. Adeptus Mechanicus sees the problem inherent in our geneseed and the Canis Helix and recommends against ever using Russ' material for any Foundings of any Chapters ever again.

 

4. Something happens to the Wolf Brothers Chapter that was created when the old Legion split. Some believe that they suffered from even more genetic instability than the Space Wolves already do. A quote from the 13th Company IA article that states that the Wolf Brothers were rumored to have been disbanded. An article from White Dwarf 245 says that they chased Eldar into the webway and disappeared forever in M37. Either way, that Chapter was "ill-fated" and is forever gone.

 

5. Thus with the Wolf Brothers now gone, and no other successor Chapters ever created because the legacy of Russ is too dangerous to use beyond the First Founding Chapter that remains.

 

V

[WyrdWolf]

Soo, what I'm getting from this exchange is that there's no cut and dry lore to the wolf brothers other than "something" caused them to not be around anymore. If that's the case then it would seem as though making a company of Wolf Brothers would be a decent idea if i want to come up with my own lore.

[Wulf Vengis]

The latest codex states only that, "The Space Wolves were divided only once, creating the ill-fated Wolfbrothers Chapter. Perhaps the High Lords recognized the problems of genetic instability that would plague the legacy of Leman Russ..." It would be easy to assume that the Wolfbrothers were considered "ill-fated" because of the "genetic instability." However, the genetic instability is just the explanation for why the Space Wolves were not used to create additional successor Chapters. The original Wolfbrothers weren't new Marines, they were just split off from the original Legion to cut the size down to something more in accordance with the intent behind Guilliman's Codex Astartes. That first split in the 2nd Founding was more or less "mandatory", as Russ eventually agreed to it like all of the other Primarchs. All of the foundings after the 2nd, however, create something "new"; additional Marines populating a new Chapter based off of the genetic lineage of an already existing Chapter. This process spreads a genetic legacy, as new Chapters are grown. The Space Wolves have put up with genetic instability and the "Curse of the Wulfen" for 10,000 years, so there is no good reason to spread the Curse beyond our First-Founding Chapter/Legion. Why take a genetic line with obvious problems, when they can take "pure" genetic material from the Ultramarines, for example, to create new Chapters?

That explains perfectly why our seed wasnt used to create further chapters

 

This is, in my opinion, what that line about genetic instability is about. There wasn't, until BotF, material that stated that the Wolfbrothers were any more unstable than what we know the Space Wolves were, and always have been. There is also a quote that says the Canis Helix has been responsible for the deaths of millions of Fenrisians. We also know that the instability was so prevalent even within the original Legion that an entire pre-Heresy Great Company (number 13 of 13 total), was comprised of Space Wolves that had succumbed to the Curse of the Wulfen. Our Space Wolves are already known to be made from unstable genetic material; again, until BotF, we had no indication that the Wolfbrothers were any worse off than any of the Sons of Russ.

When I read the "legacy of..." I wasnt thinking of further chapters but of the future of the immediate geneseed. There was an entire great company of Wulfen before the Horus Heresy ended, and if the Ad Mech knew that at the time then theyre most likely estimating that in 10k years most if not all the SW could be Wulfen thanks to the gradual degradation of the recycled Geneseed. As youve stated here even the Fenrisian failure rate is incredibly high when undergoing the geneseed transplant procedures. You are correct though as until BotF we had no reason to believe the WB were worse off I cant disagree with you there.

 

1. Whereas the large Ultramarines Legion which avoided taking too many losses in the Heresy broke up into 24 new Chapters (including the Ultramarines Chapter and 23 others), during the Second founding, the Space Wolves Legion only broke into 2, the Space Wolves and Wolf Brothers Chapters, because the Legion was small to begin with, suffered losses during Sacking of Prospero and chasing Abaddon into the Eye of Terror.

Agree

 

2. Over the years the Adeptus Mechanicus who oversees the tithes and monitors the purity of geneseed reports to the High Lords, recommends Ultramarines geneseed for use in later foundings because it is exceptionally pure. This is how greater than half of the 1,000 Chapters come from UM stock.

Agree

 

3. The geneseed of Leman Russ is genetically unstable. Space Wolves sometimes suffer from the Curse of the Wulfen. Legend has it that an entire Great Company suffered from the Curse and disappeared into the Eye of Terror. Adeptus Mechanicus sees the problem inherent in our geneseed and the Canis Helix and recommends against ever using Russ' material for any Foundings of any Chapters ever again.

Agreed

 

4. Something happens to the Wolf Brothers Chapter that was created when the old Legion split. Some believe that they suffered from even more genetic instability than the Space Wolves already do. A quote from the 13th Company IA article that states that the Wolf Brothers were rumored to have been disbanded. An article from White Dwarf 245 says that they chased Eldar into the webway and disappeared forever in M37. Either way, that Chapter was "ill-fated" and is forever gone.

This is where things get wonky, and only because of BotF. The BotF occured in M32 and the SW regard the WB as a stain on their past a hidden shame if you will and feel great sorrow when the WB are mentioned. They act as if the WB have already met their fate, yet we have the webway referrance from M37. So some minor conflicting here which is why I believe that WB stuck around at least until M37 even if they were only a dying chapter. Over the 5kish years their geneseed had become so unstable they were unable to produce more marines. So if some thing of this nature were possible then I could very much see the remaining WB disappearing into the Webway never to be seen again. But that doesnt discredit the new fluff put forth by BotF that explains that at least one great company of the WB fell to chaos. As much as we may not want to admit or accept that fact it is now fact (as much as any BL fluff is anyways), just like we have to deal with the shame put upon us by the Red Corsairs. We didnt lose any to Chaos during the heresy but weve had our traitors and we must bare that shame and carry it with us.

[Wulf Vengis]

Soo, what I'm getting from this exchange is that there's no cut and dry lore to the wolf brothers other than "something" caused them to not be around anymore. If that's the case then it would seem as though making a company of Wolf Brothers would be a decent idea if i want to come up with my own lore.

That is precisely how I would build the army background. Use the little we do know for sure and I would not suggest writing your fluff to explain as "returning" as it would seem that that bother people more than the WB themselves. I would say build a great company from the height of the WB career or build the last great company of the WB just before their disappearance into the Webway. Kind of a period piece if you will.

[TiguriusX]

Soo, what I'm getting from this exchange is that there's no cut and dry lore to the wolf brothers other than "something" caused them to not be around anymore. If that's the case then it would seem as though making a company of Wolf Brothers would be a decent idea if i want to come up with my own lore.

Not sure how you came to your conclusion. If they are not around anymore then how do you have an entire company?

 

You can make up whatever story you want for your toy soldiers. The reason we warn against using the controversial wolf brothers is to avoid gaps in your fluffy logic.

[Wulfebane]

Soo, what I'm getting from this exchange is that there's no cut and dry lore to the wolf brothers other than "something" caused them to not be around anymore. If that's the case then it would seem as though making a company of Wolf Brothers would be a decent idea if i want to come up with my own lore.

Not sure how you came to your conclusion. If they are not around anymore then how do you have an entire company?

 

You can make up whatever story you want for your toy soldiers. The reason we warn against using the controversial wolf brothers is to avoid gaps in your fluffy logic.

 

"Do what you want." etc etc

 

My question is why the burning need to make them the controversial Wolf Brothers and not a Lost Company? You can essentially fit the same aspects of fluff to the less controversial latter option.

 

Either way, like I said in an earlier post, we'll tell you to do what you want, but if you're asking for our permission or opinion on if other players will find it acceptable, you'll encounter quite a lot of disapproval.

[WyrdWolf]

The only reason I thought wolf brothers, was the fact that I haven't really seen any references other than to the 13th company and wolf brothers as far as "lost" space wolves groups.

[TiguriusX]

The only reason I thought wolf brothers, was the fact that I haven't really seen any references other than to the 13th company and wolf brothers as far as "lost" space wolves groups.

 

The 13th Company is not just the original Wulfen group from the battle of Prospero. "It has come to represent all of the Great Companies in the history of the Space Wolves who have been destroyed in battle, lost on campaign or recounted their oaths of fealty" (Codex, p. 17)

 

Sometimes a Wolf Lord doesn't like or agree with the current Great Wolf so they leave and take their Company with them. This is the reason most people use for their own custom Company. Another popular reason is they got lost in the warp and returned to find they were moved to the 13th (kind of like listed as MIA).

 

As for my suggestion about a secret force getting revenge for what happened on Armageddon...check p.23

 

You have many other options besides the controversial Wolf Brothers. That is all we are trying to tell you. Claiming your Company is somehow related to the Wolf Brothers is a hard sell for a Space Wolf that is familiar with the fluff. But once again...it is YOUR money and YOUR story...you can do whatever you want.

[Valerian]

You could, however, pull off the Wolf Brothers if you did a strictly historical force. Just like when folks make pre-Heresy, or Heresy-era Space Wolves. You've got several millennia in the timeline to work with before they disappeared, regardless of which cause for their destruction you subscribe to. Of course, you wouldn't be able to tie into an Armageddon scenario, but I'm sure you could think of something else.

 

V

[Wulf Vengis]

Essentially the WB are no more lost than the original 13th. We have fluff examples of the 13th returning on several occasions the most important was the 13th black crusade the Cadian campaign has them supporting Imperial forces across the board. After the campaign they diasappeared as mysteriously as they arrived. Its not too hard to believe the WB COULD return perhaps during a campaign against the Eldar. But if I were to build them my fluff would have them returning against the Eldar then chasing the retreating Eldar fleet into the Webway. (Just a quick idea with room to build on as you can see.) But I would be definately be very careful about how that Fluff fleshed them out. Or as Valerian and myself have now said go with a period piece based. "A hard sell" yes, but not impossible. I say if youre prepared to get that imaginative and most likely run through several versions of Fluff before you find one that doesnt raise the hackles of the Long Fangs than what the Hel, go for it. But if you want to get creative yet simple then stick with one of the lost companies of the 13th. Either way have fun and dont let everyone else get you down. Well help along the way and let you know what ideas float or sink.