Question of Age

[Darkmagi]

Hi all I have recently picked up a large number of rogue trader era grey knights (approximately 28) I want to use them as paladins I guess my question is mainly one of wisyig. I was wondering if it would be alright to use old school terminator assault cannons as psycannons; and, also if there would be a problem converting one up to be used as Drago. I am looking for input for both tournament play as well as casual. Thanks for all help in advance!!!

[tksolway]

Tournament Play is usually WYSIWYG, playing with your friends is anything goes. I know my friends and I routinely use placeholders for units when we want to try out a new list or new unit. The only way you will get what you want to work in a tournament is if you can get the organizers to agree in advance, realistically, its not going to happen. Old units are fine and still perfectly leagal. I use old termies from back in the day of Peuter and the small bases in my Iron Hands army, but their assault cannons are assualt cannons etc.

[staxer]

I use the three different versions in my army. All converted to be legal under current codex. Some were converted to apothecaries, banner bearers and psycannon paladins. The psycannons are the original one that looks like a long barrelled bolter. Standard Paladins have weapons changed to match current codex. Only problem is that they came with a 25mm base. Solution glued that base to a 40mm base. Heights' are now the same, I don't notice the extended base. Unfortunately not finished painting the army yet and don't have any photos to hand

[tksolway]

To my knowledge it is still legal to use the 25mm base with any model that originally shipped with it. At least that's what my GW guy told me.

[*Furyou Miko]

tksolway is correct, any player demanding the use of Wheiner Fields on your old terminators is just being difficult.

 

Regarding the Assault Cannons, can Paladins take Assault Cannons? If not, then you're fine calling them Psycannons. Otherwise, you're out of luck if you have to be WYSIWIG.

[the jeske]

To my knowledge it is still legal to use the 25mm base with any model that originally shipped with it. At least that's what my GW guy told me.

yep . If something was sold as GK then it is a GK for ever and models can be played on bases which were supplied with it [unless something was faq'ed like 2ed baseless dreads] . chaos players have been using small 3ed oblits for ages. much better then the big 3.5 ones. easier to hide fewer hit by blast etc.

[The Holy Heretic]

This thread is hilarious. Its everything that is wrong with 40K. The anal concern about the use of ze correcht plastic bits, rather than whether a model is looking cool or not, and if its function is clear :P

 

Luckily I've never played anyone, who'd care to give a damn about all this - in fact, the only one I ever met who did, is the local GW staffer - and for some reason I never frequent thee GW store ;)

[the jeske]

wait till you see a dude with canis on a sceninc base so big it makes a whole unit circle him and he gets buffed for every dude in base to base. or when cool scenic nid base lets a nid pivot and gain 4-5" range for free , just because GW decided to give all nids assault weapons.

[Darkmagi]

Thanks for all the reply's, yes as for the assault cannons I was going to use them as psycannons. It looks like most of my ideas would be alright. Awesome one question remains though, Is it alright to have an ancient termie with Storm Shield, and the old sword with built in gun count as Drago or do I have to use that god awful model that wont fit with the rest of the army?

[tksolway]

This thread is hilarious. Its everything that is wrong with 40K. The anal concern about the use of ze correcht plastic bits, rather than whether a model is looking cool or not, and if its function is clear :P

 

Luckily I've never played anyone, who'd care to give a damn about all this - in fact, the only one I ever met who did, is the local GW staffer - and for some reason I never frequent thee GW store :P

 

Since the OP was asking about tournaments its clear that we have to worry about the correct plastic bits etc. You'll notice that I did say that playing between friends anything goes. Quite frankly if I was at a tournament where the organizer allowed some guy to use a collection of models "AS" the new kick ass army idea I would be very annoyed. Just allowing some guy to use all his models "AS" whatever he wants is being rude to everyone else at the tournament, since the other people spent the $40 on Draigo, painted him, and put their effort into creating an army. There is a reason why tournaments require you to have painted and based armies, and enforce WYSIWYG, You may think it is to make more money for GW, I think it is to enforce a level of effort and respect for your opponents.

[The Holy Heretic]

Well to me, the idea of 'correct' bits are just insane. First of all the imperium is comprised of countless worlds - with countless production facilities, add to this that a lot of wargear are ancient tech and hand-downs from innumerable predecessors, which combined would result in a rather rag-tag look and lack of any standardisation. Just take a look at the amount of variations in firearm design, we have on our own little planet - a H&K G36 looks rather different from an M16, yet they have the same effect and use ;)

 

Standardisation in a marine army is just blatantly wrong and 'unfluffy' ;)

 

-

 

Regarding bases. Then of course you should strive for 'correctness' here, as it does have some impact on the game, but then again, things change, and sometimes you lack the time/energy to do this, or just don't want to ruin a perfectly good model - if however, you were to build a new army of old models, I'd put in the effort to base it properly (and 40mm gives much more room to make a nice base). :)

[Inquisitor Fox]

I think the question is really one of "required" versus "polite".

 

You are not "required" to rebase the models to the current Terminator standard, however in my own personal non-mod opinion to do so would be "polite". Considering the only things that exist with assault cannons in the GK Codex are vehicles, and those are often found with psybolts anyway, I'm not even sure that it would be impolite to use those as psycannon armed Termies. If you end up having the luxary, it would be "polite" to order some plastic psycannon bits from a bits order shop (there's several that sell GW plastics by individual bits on EBay and elsewhere) and do a conversion of the assault cannon to a psycannon, but that's more "polite" than technically required as far as I'm aware.

 

It is possible to abuse bases like the jeske is suggesting, however I've never encountered a player that does so. The laws of probability say they exist though. I think it really comes down to The Golden Rule. If it's something that'd bug you to play against, well... don't do it to other people. ^_^

[Whitefireinferno]

We have a Ork player in my group that Buys the Ork Trukks for sitting about his house looking pretty and the occasional game but for the most part uses the old Gorkamorka Trukks most of the time because they are a 3rd of the size and hold just as many boyz. He also has a Deathwing force that he has gone out of his way to buy any old termies he can so they come based on 25mm bases to make use of the use what it came with rule it is quite the pain.

[The Holy Heretic]

We have a Ork player in my group that Buys the Ork Trukks for sitting about his house looking pretty and the occasional game but for the most part uses the old Gorkamorka Trukks most of the time because they are a 3rd of the size and hold just as many boyz. He also has a Deathwing force that he has gone out of his way to buy any old termies he can so they come based on 25mm bases to make use of the use what it came with rule it is quite the pain.

 

Hah, thats hilarious :P

 

Since your group doesn't seem awfully thrilled about this concept, why do you accept it?

[the jeske]

because it is legal . trukks are trukks if they were made by GW you can argue , if they can or can not be used . Same with termis or to make a different example . If someone would be using a lot smaller rhinos , you cant tell them he has to buy 6 new rhinos because the models you are using are bigger and his are easier to hide .

[nurglez]

Indeed, I have 3 of the old rhinos and 1 of the new ones, I'm not gonna rebuy them :whistling:

[The Holy Heretic]

because it is legal ...

 

Sure its 'legal', but that wasn't the question :whistling:

 

Or, if it is indeed the answer to the question, why does it bother you?

[Whitefireinferno]

We allow it because it is legal, It really is a Dick move on his part but Bleh. As I said its just a dick move due to the person having the New Trukk But that is only for sitting in his display case when the Orks come out for a game its the Trukks from the age of warbuggie sized trukks that hit the table. We just deal with it, also has a tantrum when he looses and calls my other army Broken because it has PE:Orkz across the board(its funny the codex is 2nd oldest now I think).

[nurglez]

To be honest, I'd love a few more of the old grey knight circa 1989 models, if only they came in more poses. I have 2, both the same pose and witout arms. I have turned one into a libby, put him on a base the same size as my paladins, as it would seem wrong otherwise. While I still have about 8-10 old chaos terminators on small bases...

 

I also have 2 daemon princes, on different sized bases (but on the ones they came with...). GW is random sometimes :angry:

[Grand Master Caloth]

i have been scouring my local gaming scene in Seattle/tacoma for old GK terms. they look awesome in my opinion, and yes id base them on current Term bases, but i can completely see the assault cannon as a psycannon, and the flamer as an incinerator. I really dont see as many people would rules-lawyer it, and i think they would be pretty impressed by seeing them on the field again.

[Inquisitor Fox]

It's a good thing I didn't decide to do that myself then if you stole em all already! I'll just use my pewter DH 'dex Termies and call it good...

 

EDIT: as I myself am in the Seattle/Tacoma area...

 

Although I did manage to score an old old pewter 25mm librarian that I stuck pewter GK Termie arms to (Sword and Storm Bolter) that I mounted on a 40mm base to be a Grey Knights Librarian... the conversion worked pretty well and only required drilling a new hole on the Storm Bolter arm for some reason. The back doesn't quite match up as it's a generic Terminator back, but the GK arms make it match much much better than just using a Terminator Librarian would.

[The Holy Heretic]

We allow it because it is legal, It really is a Dick move on his part but Bleh. As I said its just a dick move due to the person having the New Trukk But that is only for sitting in his display case when the Orks come out for a game its the Trukks from the age of warbuggie sized trukks that hit the table. We just deal with it, also has a tantrum when he looses and calls my other army Broken because it has PE:Orkz across the board(its funny the codex is 2nd oldest now I think).

 

So you allow it 'cause its legal? And then go whinging about unfair rules? ;D

 

Sorry, but I just can't find any understanding for your troubles. Unless of course you're forced to play these games under supervision of the heavily armed GW police, forcing you to accept this 'unfairness'.

 

There is nothing wrong in making up house rules to compensate for GWs lackings, and there is absolutely nothing wrong in turning down games with people, whom you do not enjoy playing against.

 

So you see, its really up to you. You need to take responsibility for your own life and enjoyment, and be critical towards the things you do, and the persons you do it with. Whinging on the internet will accomplish you nothing, as you're just searching for sympathy from people unable to affect your situation. So stop dubbing your friend a 'dick', when its really you being a 'dick' to yourself.

 

So deal with it. Ask your friend to make some scenic bases to compensate for his trukks lack in size - which could only be cool. Go buy a bunch of 40mm bases for his termies, and ask him to glue them on, next time he wants to deathwing you. And when he protests and refers to 'da rulz' then just calmly explain, how you've just changed the rules to suit the house, and that he is welcome to take his rules sheananigans to tournaments, but they aren't fitting in your gaming environment <_<

[Brother Tyler]

So you allow it 'cause its legal? And then go whinging about unfair rules? ;D

I think you need to stop misrepresenting what people are saying and how they say it.

 

The general tone of this discussion has been to clearly articulate what is allowed because it is legal. The only real annoyance these players have expressed is when people make a point of exploiting legality to gain an unfair (not illegal) advantage.

 

I personally have a horde of the original Grey Knights Terminator models. Could I keep them on 25 mm bases if I wanted? Absolutely. It's legal and no one really has a right to tell me that I have to do otherwise. However, mine will all be on 40 mm bases because I think it's more sportsmanlike (and because I can afford to do it). If someone plonked down their older terminator models on 25 mm bases to oppose my own army would I complain? Not a bit. Now if I knew that they made a point of getting only the older models to take advantage of the rules benefits of being on 25 mm bases I might be slightly irritated, but I wouldn't cry foul.

 

Now the whole point of allowing older models to be played as sold is to not unfairly impose upon players with older armies/models. That is a pretty fair concept and I don't recall anyone really complaining about it. The only negative comments made in that direction have been with regard to people who take advantage of that rule (and admittedly, "taking advantage" is highly subjective and it isn't really safe to draw any conclusions unless one has all the facts). People have cited specific examples, and these are probably fair descriptions of their situations. For every one of those situations, however, there is a situation where someone is just being thrifty (e.g., they happened upon a collection of older terminators they could get cheaply instead of forking out considerably more money for fewer terminators) or someone has had the older models since long before the rules changed (e.g., there are many of us that have been collecting since the '80s/'90s and we might have older models bought new).

 

I think that is pretty much in line with the general tone everyone else has been expressing.

 

You're the only one that seems to be making an issue of this. Yes, there might be some people that really have an issue with using older models, but they appear to be in the minority and the majority appear to accept the situation as it is.

[Grand Master Caloth]

It's a good thing I didn't decide to do that myself then if you stole em all already! I'll just use my pewter DH 'dex Termies and call it good...

 

EDIT: as I myself am in the Seattle/Tacoma area...

 

Although I did manage to score an old old pewter 25mm librarian that I stuck pewter GK Termie arms to (Sword and Storm Bolter) that I mounted on a 40mm base to be a Grey Knights Librarian... the conversion worked pretty well and only required drilling a new hole on the Storm Bolter arm for some reason. The back doesn't quite match up as it's a generic Terminator back, but the GK arms make it match much much better than just using a Terminator Librarian would.

 

 

Id very much like to see the conversion!and i havent had much success in finding the old termie models. -.-, Where you game mostly? im in tac.

 

 

and I have to agree with you, tyler. I may be irritated when people do it, or use old trukk models like that, but i make the choice to play against them, so its on me to adapt and overcome! lol

[Inquisitor Fox]

Generally either the Auburn Supermall GW or the Kent Station GW... when I get the very very rare game nowadays :P 3 Kids with the youngest being 2 will do that to ya!

 

Alright.. by request.. here's the unpainted GK Librarian. Not sure it counts as much of a conversion but...

 

http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq70/Myen_Shi/librarian.jpg

 

As you can see I mostly just did an arm swap being that the old Terminator Librarians were in 3 pieces. There was some drilling of the socket of the stormbolter arm as the peg was in the wrong spot somehow, but that wasn't too bad. New hole, putty in the old hole, wham bam thank you mam there we go :)

 

Plan is to paint it pretty normal and just use a blue loincloth instead of my bone colored traditional one. The nice bit is the librarian specific horned skull bits will help add a lot of character. My hope is that the different torso style won't throw things off too much.

 

Note: This is an example of what I was talking about and Brother Tyler sorta touched on. It's a model that was packaged and sold (and acquired by me) with a 25mm base. Could I put it on that base on the table, even post conversion? Yes. Am I going to? No... I am making a choice I believe to be more sportsmanlike, more fitting, and matching the rest of my army. Would I really complain if someone fielded an older model on a 25mm base? Probably not, but I'd "feel" better about it as a player if it was on a 40mm base like other Terminators are.