Against the Ork

[Tayrod]

Hey there, please feel free to move this if it is in the wrong forum.

 

In a game this weekend I went up against an Ork player with 3x battlewagons, one was filled with Nobs and Ghazskull, and the two others with orks with flamethrowers and a big mek. The 3 battlewagons all had deathrollas, and they all stayed within 6' of the big mek giving them all a +4 cover save (is this right)?

 

We dident have time to finnish the game, so we called it a draw, but Im pretty sure I would have lost if we had kept on playing. The Orks just drove up to my lines, and stayed in the Battlewagons while they proceeded to put 15 flame templates out of their veichles, on the exact same spot, which did like 75 hits per unit they touched. I uppended 2 whole rounds of shooting into the battlewagons, but did not manage to blow up a single one (even with 3 servitors with multi melta, 2 jokaros), rifleman dread, 4d6 armour pen sniper, a full set of paladins, etc etc.

 

How should you deal with this formation? I do understand I could have deployed better, but even so most of my shots were still directed at their side armor. Is the key to mech up? - If I do, they will simply ram my rhinoes..

[Murcielago]

Well when I first read this topic's title, I though "Hmmmm...sounds like a job for Purifiers" =)

 

But actually reading it, it seems like an entirely different story. His list is totally legal so long as he's got 2 troop choices (one being a nobz squad). The key to beating a list like this is to engage it in close combat with demon hammers. Psycannons could work but that might still be difficult, so I'd say engage with hammer termies and call it a day. Also, I feel like a vindicare could help you out as well, being able to possible pop the mek's wagon early and just snipe him the turn after.

 

Happy hunting,

Murcielago

[Tayrod]

I tried charging them with Paladins with DeamonHammers, but their flamers are Power weapons in close combat.

I charge and kill the transport, the flamers pop out, next round, the flamers charge me, they strike first with Power weapons, doing 7,5 wounds after saves.

 

I had a vindicare, but he was unable to get past the 4+ cover save.

[Chengar Qordath]

Burna Boyz are still only Initiative 2, so I don't see how they would be striking first unless your entire Paladin squad is using Daemonhammers instead of the more standard 1 hammer per 5 models. Hammerhanded swords/halberds will do plenty of damage to the Orks before they get a chance to swing.

 

Also sounds like you had really bad luck with your cover saves. Battlewagons with Side Armor 12 and open-topped aren't that difficult of a target for Psycannons, and your AP 1 weapons are terrifying against open-topped vehicles.

 

Also, from your description it sounds like he had one squad of Nobz, and two squads of Burna Boyz, the Wagons, Ghazskull, and the Mek. Burna Boyz are Elites, so unless I missed a unit that's an illegal list.

[Tayrod]

oh, he had a few mobs of boys aswell, but I cleared them easily enough, it's the battlewagons I had trouble with, so that what I put in the thread.

And looking back, I forgot about the bonus (+1) to open topped! That would have helped alot!

 

And yes, everything and their mother had a Hammer, I've faced the Battlewagon horde before, and was really anxious to bring it down quick. In retrospect, I think Im going to change to Halberds.

[Drachnon]

I don't have the codex at hand but I'm pretty sure its only a 5+ cover save. Still I faced battlewagons before as well (though my opponents were loaded with meganobs) and they weren't that hard as long as you don't shoot them from the front. With a vindicare even front armour isn't that much of a problem. It has AP and battle wagons are open topped since it pretty much always penetrates the only thing stopping you from wrecking on a 3 and explode on 4+ is their cover save which like I said is 5+. Just make sure to shoot the battlewagon with the bigmek first it decreases your opponents range for cover.

 

If your opponent has 2x 15 burna's and a squad of nobs + gahzkull + bigmek with kostum force field he can't have much for the rest of his army. (seems like 1300+ points right there).

And you don't need hammers to take out battle wagons in close combat with rear armour 10 vs our hammerhand you glance on 5 and penetrate on 6 with regular attacks. Also keep in mind that the deathrolla's are not part of the hull so your opponent can't shoot or disembark from it (many ork players seem to forget this).

 

If you play well and shoot at side armour instead of trying to take the front psycannons and auto cannons with psybolt ammo should be plenty for taking out your opponent.

[RedemptionNL]

I don't have the codex at hand but I'm pretty sure its only a 5+ cover save.

 

For infantry it's a 5+ save I believe, yes, but vehicles count as Obscured. Since 5th edition Obscured vehicles get a 4+ cover save.

[Tayrod]

It was a 2000 point list, so he had a few other elements, but nothing I could not handle. In retrospect, forgetting the +1 to damadge open topped might have cost me the game. I had atleast a couple of weapon destroyed results, and a whole bunch on 1s. Great tip on the reararmour only being 10 though! The Burnas are still a problem. If I destroy a transport in CC, I dont automatically go into CC with the occupants, right? So his Burnas still get a round of shooting me up, before they charge in?

 

The Big Mek was in the middle, so I could not shoot it, without first shooting the two adjoining wagons (unless I wanted to shoot him in the front armour).

[number6]

Sounds to me mostly like you just had a spot of bad luck. You sound shooty enough, odds are you should have popped one ore more of the battlewagons. :)

 

A couple of things, however....

 

Did you shoot at the side armour? Battlewagons are long and narrow and only AV 12 on the sides. If you can't get side armour shots against Battlewagons, you're doing something wrong?

 

It sounds like he had multiple turns of multiple shots with flamers and multiple attacks with power weapons against your forces. A couple of flaming attacks through the course of the game -- especially if your anti-armour shooting is just plain failing you -- is understandable. But much more than that, and I have to wonder if you weren't specifically hanging around close to the vehicles...?

[Chengar Qordath]

It was a 2000 point list, so he had a few other elements, but nothing I could not handle. In retrospect, forgetting the +1 to damadge open topped might have cost me the game. I had atleast a couple of weapon destroyed results, and a whole bunch on 1s. Great tip on the reararmour only being 10 though! The Burnas are still a problem. If I destroy a transport in CC, I dont automatically go into CC with the occupants, right? So his Burnas still get a round of shooting me up, before they charge in?

If Burna Boyz shoot their flamers, they don't get power weapon in close combat next phase.

[chaplainmeliadus]

If Burna Boyz shoot their flamers, they don't get power weapon in close combat next phase.

 

Aye. The closest you could get is firing, say, 5 of them as flamers then using the other 10 as power weapons.

 

And I wouldn't bother with halberds against orks. As Chengar already pointed out, most orks are I2, and most of the things with I3 or better tend to take Power Klaws anyway. As a general rule of thumb, if it is striking at the same time as you or before, it won't ignore your save. Your swords or (if you're feeling crazy) falchions should strike first.

[Raus]

Play with double camps. In one of those, you put your really long range shooting, dreadnought, jokaeros, etc. In the other, the rest of your army. Your opponent now have to choose, either go for the small camp with dreads and shooting, or go for your big camp with psycannons and paladins.

 

If he goes for your main camp, your shooting will hit him in the side armor, destroying battlewagons like toy cars. If he goes for the shooting camp, hit him in the side with Psycannons and counterassault.

 

Good thing about force field: You never have to make rough decisions about what wagon to pick out. Start with the big mek, then Ghaz. If he keep making his cover saves, just realise you are screwed, and thank GW for making the BW+KFF combo.