Rating Codex: Space Marine entries

[Validar]

Alright, I'm trying to apply a methology that'll help discuss codex: Space Marine.

It is an easy 10 point system where 10 points "makes an army" - so if one unit is 10/10 it is actually the entire force, where a unit set at 5/10 is very vital for the army, but needs something more to "make it an army". I hope that makes sense, otherwise ask and I'll elaborate. I'll assume that multiples'll give any unit an aditional 2 in point cost, since the usefulness of a unit tends to increase as you multiply the unit and in my case I assume that it increases effectiveness by 20% (2/10). This doesn't count for troops nor dedicated transports.

 

Entry: Librarian

Everyone's favorite HQ. Cheap and useful. But mostly because he brings Null Zone to the table. Null zone is a power that can be used against just about any army to great effect and really helps taking out those hardcore deathstar units that don't really care much about your power weapons or low HP. Nullzone is awesome but is in essence just an addon to the army.

That is why I'd put nullzone at 1/10. Worth enough to make one tenth of an army, but not making the army in itself.

 

Rhino, Razorback, Drop pod:

Transports is good in general, especially when employed in force. They are really making the units that take them a lot better by adding significant mobility and additional protection.

Thus I'd say that the three above should all be at 2/10. They're good, but they don't make the army in themselves, they need to be atleast a few to have any significance (Remember that they don't count as doubles). Maybe the first one should be without point cost since it is only really when you start getting a lot that they start getting good?

 

Land raider (any variant):

The land raider plays a dominant role in the SM army, no matter what kind it is. At a massive point cost it also adds a lot of punch to the army, especially when paried with our hardcore CC units (terminators would be an obvious choice). If you take a land raider you are partly forced to think it all the way into the core of your plans: It needs a specific role, it needs a unit that rides it and it needs to work well together with the rest of the army.

That is why I'd put the Land Raider at 4/10. You still need more stuff to build your army, but once you've taken the Land Raider you're setting up a core part of the army.

 

Terminators:

A great unit especially when paired with the land raider. Bringing awesome armor saves and invul. saves alike they're still able to throw enough punch to make just about anything they run into say their prayers. Being heavy in point cost too, they're something that adds something significant to the playstyle of your game aswell.

I'd rate Terminators 1/10. They add good stuff to your army, but it needs more to define what role they actually play. When paired with the Raider they become exceptional, but do also account for "half" of your army at 5/10 points.

 

 

Can you follow the termonology? Does it make sense?

What do you think of my ratings? Are they off or do they need change?

What would you add as ratings for other units in the codex?

[Iron Father Ferrum]

This sort of rating scheme is, I think, out of place in a game as customizable as 40K. There are so many different variants and ways to build and equip different units/vehicles, and such a variance in possible opponents, that a simple numerical scheme is going to break down fairly easily. Rather than re-invent the wheel, I suggest you dig into the Codex Marines 101 that can be found here:

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=217698

[ak-73]

Rhinos and Razorbacks are really 10/10, aka no army can go without unless it's a pure scout (or a drop pod) army. Every Tactical and Sternguard squad needs a transport. Honor Guards do too.

 

Alex

[awfulawful]

The value of any particular unit is almost entirely dependent on what else is in the army. Trying to rate each unit in a vacuum is a bit of a pointless exercise.

[maturin]

Yes, exactly. There needs to be a way to account for synergies present in your armylist.

[ak-73]

No, I disagree. A Techmarine or LOTD are just not great choices for your army. A Dakka Pred is practically never a bad choice; perhaps in a Vulkan list you might want to spam more melta or flamers instead but otherwise low price for what it can do. (You will have to include high S weapons elsewhere in yoru army though.)

 

And as I said unless you do a drop pod army (which I wouldn't), Rhinos and Razorbacks are the way to go.

 

There is a mostly (but not totally) accurate review here:

http://www.3plusplus.net/p/codex-reviews.html

 

Alex

[maturin]

A Dakka Pred is practically never a bad choice; perhaps in a Vulkan list you might want to spam more melta or flamers instead but otherwise low price for what it can do. (You will have to include high S weapons elsewhere in yoru army though.)

 

And as I said unless you do a drop pod army (which I wouldn't), Rhinos and Razorbacks are the way to go.

 

If I could paraphrase what you've written here: A dakka pred is a good choice, unless it doesn't fit in your list. [i.e. it depends on your list] Rhinos/Razorbacks are a good choice, unless it doesn't fit in your list [i.e. it depends on your list].

 

I would argue that you actually agree with the rest of us. ;)

[Validar]

Alright guys, instead of hatin' the concept you could try and go with the flow ;)

 

@AK: you'll need to reread the concept. This is about what you need to build and army and you DO need rhinos/razors in most cases, but a single one just isn't enough, as I pointed out. A single Rhino isn't an army, but when you're looking at 4...

 

True that it depends a lot upon the synergy in the army, which completely eschews the need for this debate. But if someone find it fun and interresting (it isn't like I am going to dictate how you're gonna play or tell GW what they have to do) please try to contribute! It is all just for fun and games, and I know a lot of you guys out there know stuff a hundred times better than I do, so, please, give it a shot.

 

If it helps the understanding, think of it as some sort of army selection system where you can use 10 points to build your army - which units should actually have a cost?

Like AK said a legion of the damned unit just isn't a great choice, but a dakka pred (or the predator in general) on the other hand...

[ak-73]

A Dakka Pred is practically never a bad choice; perhaps in a Vulkan list you might want to spam more melta or flamers instead but otherwise low price for what it can do. (You will have to include high S weapons elsewhere in yoru army though.)

 

And as I said unless you do a drop pod army (which I wouldn't), Rhinos and Razorbacks are the way to go.

 

If I could paraphrase what you've written here: A dakka pred is a good choice, unless it doesn't fit in your list. [i.e. it depends on your list] Rhinos/Razorbacks are a good choice, unless it doesn't fit in your list [i.e. it depends on your list].

 

I would argue that you actually agree with the rest of us. :P

 

It's just that both Predators and transports have so few conditionals (specific army builds like drop pods, vulkan bikers, scouts) that limit their use. A regular vanilla army build (=mechanized) makes them always a very good choice.

 

Alex

[DarkGuard]

I think the confusion here could be that some people are looking at the rating system as not adding up to 10, rather if a unit scores 10/10 it makes it into the army almost definitely, while a unit with 5/10 may be more subjective, a unit with 7/10 is a very good unit and should nearly always be in the army but may not due to play style etc, while a 1/10 is leave at home.

 

It seems to me though that the OP is intending for 10 to be a total and that all the units add up to 10 in the long run, which is why the transport vehicles are 1/10, they don't make the army on their own, they need other things.

 

Quite frankly I don't think either way can work, 40K is just so flexible and allows so many different units to be used, but that's my opinion ;).

[Warp Angel]

I built a system to figure this out that accommodates capability of individual units, their situational/synergy value, and role that they fulfill in an army.

 

It's called "Killhammer". And it can be used pre-game to build your list and during the game to deploy and actually use it.

 

I could repost, but clicking the link in my sig is probably more useful. The article is aging and needs updating, but still very relevant as a foundation for understanding unit effectiveness.

 

Feedback is always appreciated.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

This would be fairly common internet wisdom [the good kind] about what works for C:SM.

 

Caveats:

One man can make a spork sing like an angel, even if 9 others would never take it.

Terrain changes the game. Too little makes shooters ridiculous, and conversely with too much terrain, terrible, etc.

Points size changes the game a lot. Tau are pretty deadly at low points value, yet are considered off the powa! curve at a higher points game, etc.

And some people here don't like the path well worn, and so make it a point of pride in being naughty and taking not-l33t units doing it their way. :P

And after all, once these have been mastered, why stick to this all the time? Even steak and chips gets a bit much from breakfast, lunch and dinner, eh? :D

etc.

 

But these are the good units and perhaps what makes them good, besides raw ability, is their ease of use. Play 4 games in a day with the desire to win a tourney, and you will appreciate the ease of use of 'no brainer' units, rather than having to micromanage something a bit more awkward even if it has as much potential. Anyway:

 

HQ

Librarian

Captain

Relic blade is desirable. Bike opens up Bike TROOPS, which can be very fun. See 'White Scars' in my sig.

The Bike command squad can be deadly.

 

TROOPS

Tactical.... :lol: take with Rhino or Razorback if you must take them.

Bikes are solid.

 

ELITES

Hammernators, maybe with a sprinkling of Clawnators.

This means a Land Raider. The Crusader is the most forgiving to use.

Sternguard.

Goes well with Gate Librarian. take Rhino.

Dreadnought.

Rifleman is sweetest.

 

ATTACK

Speeders

both Typhoon and Tornado.

Attack Bikes with MM.

Bike Squad.

 

SUPPORT

Predator

Auto Las or Auto Bolter.

 

Vulkan is again, very user friendly. Nothing like adding extra killiness to your guys :tu:

 

A bike list with Melta guns requires combat tactics, whereas Khan can lead a bike list with Plasma guns.

 

Generally, other builds require familiarity to use as well as these staples in listfu. People decry these units as overrepresented, but their is a reason why they crop up so often:

• thinking is hard :P

• why fix what isn't broken? ~ or maybe Hammernators actually are broken? ;)

• simple and strong is good. Why mess around with a dodecahedron when you have nice easy things like circles, squares and triangles that are easy to learn and use well.

 

These are the units I see the internet commonly giving the thumbs up.

 

But listfu is different from rating units. Taking all the best units isn't always as successful as it sounds and sometimes, something that has gotten a lot of grief, could actually seem like that angelic spork. That would be because contextually, it is, even though the unit on its lonesome could even be considered 'meh'

 

Also, dudes get annoyed when you say what they like or rate highly is 'okay' so realise you'll always be stepping on someone's toes when you say 'this is better'.

I can't see many of the better generals saying the above units are not 'good'. This would be quite safe for Johnny Greenhorn to buy to play with and not get roflstomped by the local pwnerer for bad list selection, and would also be used by many of the competitive tourney goer generals. These are safe and strong units. No sporks.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

I think the confusion here could be that some people are looking at the rating system as not adding up to 10, rather if a unit scores 10/10 it makes it into the army almost definitely, while a unit with 5/10 may be more subjective, a unit with 7/10 is a very good unit and should nearly always be in the army but may not due to play style etc, while a 1/10 is leave at home.

 

It seems to me though that the OP is intending for 10 to be a total and that all the units add up to 10 in the long run, which is why the transport vehicles are 1/10, they don't make the army on their own, they need other things.

 

Quite frankly I don't think either way can work, 40K is just so flexible and allows so many different units to be used, but that's my opinion :D.

 

Yes, the system isn't really the way we think about things ;)

 

+++

 

If we don't have some kind of ball park grading of things, how do you recommend something to an inquiring gamer?

"I recommend X, but I can't say it is good, because it is too committal for me" :lol: :tu: :P

[DarkGuard]

If we don't have some kind of ball park grading of things, how do you recommend something to an inquiring gamer?

"I recommend X, but I can't say it is good, because it is too committal for me" :) :lol: ^_^

 

There is truth to this, but the problem is there will be some units that some players play better with than others. For example Honour Guard. For a while Idaho seemed to be the only person regularly using them and people couldn't understand why, because they found it difficult to play that unit. Now that doesn't make it a bad unit, but if we were to rate it out of 10 many wouldn't have given it more than a 5, while Idaho I imagine wouldn't have given it less than a 7.

 

Then there's Tactical Terminators, another unit that many will tell you to just trade in for Hammernators and a Crusader, but yet people like Mysticaria have managed to make them work.

 

So yes, it's good to recommend units to new people playing the game, and if they wanted a list to auto-win with I'd be singing the same tune telling them to take a Libby with Null Zone, Hammernators in a Raider, Rifleman Dreads, dakka/combi preds, fast melta, a couple of Tactical Marines in Rhino and maybe a couple of Vindys. But then that closes down so many other units that are good, but maybe not as easy to use as the above, so it's a hard one to rate. Perhaps it'll be easier to rate as such:

 

All ratings are individual to unit and don't add up:

How good the unit is (including ease of use) - x/10

How much potential the unit has (beyond ease of use) - x/10

 

But then this isn't my thread, and I'm loathe to put it into C:SM 101 because I want people to think for themselves about what they'd rather use and see it as a guide to loadouts, rather than "should I use unit a or unit y?" document.

[Warp Angel]

An important thing to remember is that no unit works well in isolation. It's how that unit works with EVERY OTHER unit in your army. Not just a couple of them, but the whole list.

 

A Hammernator squad in a LRC doesn't work well in a drop pod based army for example. Yes, it's a 500 point beat stick, but it doesn't synergize.

 

The goal is to build an army where the total effectiveness is greater than the sum of the whole. And playstyle affects unit value. Everything is subjective.