Does Hammerhand from diferent sources stack ?

[Dexo]

Hi

 

I don't no if this on has been up before, but here it goes :)

 

A unit with "Hammerhand" are joinet by a IC with "Hammerhand" will this unit get S6 efter 2 "Hammerhand" or only S5 ?

[RedemptionNL]

Yes, as answered in the 40k Rulebook FAQ.:

 

Q: Do the effects of the same psychic power cast

multiple times on the same unit stack? (p50)

A: Yes, unless specifically stated otherwise.

 

Note that a unit can't cast the same power twice, even with Psychic Mastery Level 2 or better, so they have to come from different sources. Might of Titan also stacks with Hammerhand (and itself, in the case of 2 Librarians).

[Tayrod]

Related Question: (sorry for hijacking, but I guess your question is just about answered anyway)

 

Imagine a unit of Paladins and a Grand Master:

- As far as I can tell, you can either cast hammerhand, OR you can activate the force weapons.?

- In a unit with a charachter, can the unit cast Hammerhand (and will this give the charachter +1 str?) while the charachter activates the force weapons (giving the unit instant death rule) ?

[RedemptionNL]

Related Question: (sorry for hijacking, but I guess your question is just about answered anyway)

 

Imagine a unit of Paladins and a Grand Master:

- As far as I can tell, you can either cast hammerhand, OR you can activate the force weapons.?

 

- The Paladins can in their player turn either cast Hammerhand OR Holocaust OR active their force weapons.

- The Grandmaster can cast Hammerhand OR Psychic Communion OR activate his own force weapon. Can be upgraded to cast 2 (different) powers per player turn.

 

- In a unit with a charachter, can the unit cast Hammerhand (and will this give the charachter +1 str?) while the charachter activates the force weapons (giving the unit instant death rule) ?

 

- If an Independent Character is attached to a unit, and the unit succesfully casts Hammerhand, the attached character also benefits. If the Independent Character succesfully casts Hammerhand, the unit (and any other attached Independent Characters) also benefits.

- If a unit with the Brotherhood of Psykers special rule succesfully activates their force weapons, any attached Independent Characters do not benefit. Likewise, if an Independent Character activates his force weapon, the unit he is attached also does not benefit.

 

Also keep in mind that force weapons wielded by a model without the Brotherhood of Psykers rule (i.e., all Independent Characters) act like regular force weapons for determining Instant Death; they can only inflict Instant Death for 1 unsaved wound they inflicted, not with all wounds.

[Tayrod]

Thanks for the clearup! Superb response! I guess the most tactical thing to do is to use Hammerhand with the Charachter, and Activation with the Grey Knights (assuming you need it) then!

[RedemptionNL]

Yup, that's pretty much it. :D If you don't need the Instant Death you probably want to cast Holocaust or Hammerhand with the Paladins instead, to either do some more damage in the shooting phase, or to get +2S in total to wound T4 and better models easier.

 

And of course casting Hammerhand twice also works for causing Instant Death to multiwound T3 models (i.e. Heavy Weapon Teams, Scarab Swarms, etc) for all models including the Grandmaster, as S6 is the double of T3, which also causes Instant Death.

[stephane4985]

Also keep in mind that force weapons wielded by a model without the Brotherhood of Psykers rule (i.e., all Independent Characters) act like regular force weapons for determining Instant Death; they can only inflict Instant Death for 1 unsaved wound they inflicted, not with all wounds.

 

 

And why is that? They are still NFW, not FW in their description. NFW doesn't only applied to Brotherhood of psyker. The only difference is that the IC must roll separately if i want to activate it. It is still a NFW and a NFW inflict instant death on each wound cause after the activation. Brotherhood of psyker only means that it is activate for the entire unit (except the IC) and not just the justicar.

[RedemptionNL]

As the Nemesis Force Weapon wargear entry (page 54) states they are force weapons as detailed in the 40k rulebook. Only when a unit has the Brotherhood of Psykers rule does it expand on the base force weapon rules that it only needs one test to 'activate' all of its force weapons, and if that test is passed, all wounds caused by that unit cause Instant Death.

 

It even goes as far to say that Independent Characters must roll seperatly, so it is not even the same Psychic Test that would be passed, thus it cannot get the added benefit through some weird inference.

[stephane4985]

Rereading the nfw entry, I have to agree with you. I find it odd and surprising thou, but as RAW, you are right.

[Seahawk]

act like regular force weapons for determining Instant Death; they can only inflict Instant Death for 1 unsaved wound they inflicted, not with all wounds.

This is incorrect. There is no limiting amount of wounds that cause instant death:

 

"The psyker may then take a Psychic test to use the weapon's power against any one opponent that suffered an unsaved wound by the weapon in that player turn."

 

What's limited is the number of opponents. That opponent can take two unsaved wounds, and after a successful psychic test the opponent simply suffers Instant Death. In effect, it's the same result but just clarifying what the limiter actually is.

 

Also, I must voice opposition that Nemesis Force Weapons are only special when used by a Brotherhood of Psykers unit. I read it differently, in that if you remove the Brotherhood of Psykers reference sentence completely, the rules for Nemesis Force Weapons makes sense and is far clearer. All Nemesis Force Weapons, regardless of wielder, work differently to the normal force weapons.

[RedemptionNL]

act like regular force weapons for determining Instant Death; they can only inflict Instant Death for 1 unsaved wound they inflicted, not with all wounds.

This is incorrect. There is no limiting amount of wounds that cause instant death:

 

"The psyker may then take a Psychic test to use the weapon's power against any one opponent that suffered an unsaved wound by the weapon in that player turn."

 

What's limited is the number of opponents. That opponent can take two unsaved wounds, and after a successful psychic test the opponent simply suffers Instant Death. In effect, it's the same result but just clarifying what the limiter actually is.

 

Ah yes, you're absolutely correct. But as you said yourself, the end result is exactly the same. ;) As long as we agree you can't inflict Instant Death on two different opponents that both suffered an unsaved wound. Unless you have an exception to the rules, like being able to cast the same power twice in a turn.

 

Also, I must voice opposition that Nemesis Force Weapons are only special when used by a Brotherhood of Psykers unit. I read it differently, in that if you remove the Brotherhood of Psykers reference sentence completely, the rules for Nemesis Force Weapons makes sense and is far clearer. All Nemesis Force Weapons, regardless of wielder, work differently to the normal force weapons.

 

The other properties of the Nemesis Force Weapon (i.e., Daemonbane for all the weapons, the +2 Initiative for Halberds, +1 Attack for Falchions, etc.) still work normally if a model doesn't have the Brotherhood of Psykers rule. The only difference between models with and without the Brotherhood of Psykers rule is how the force weapon activates and how Instant Death is resolved, as stated above. Removing references from rules is not a good idea for interpretation of a rule, as you're basically changing it.

[Seahawk]

I disagree. Even keeping it in, they are two completely separate sentences, indicated by the period. With that being the case, they are two unconnected ideas that were poorly placed. The note about Brotherhood of Psykers is just that: a simple note that differentiates the "normal" activation of force weapons and the version a whole unit of models with force weapon uses. Taking it out is just like taking out the stuff between the commas in this next sentence:

 

"I went to the game, though note that I was tired, and played until we won."

 

The stuff between the commas is not necessary for understanding the full context of the whole bit; it only provides extra detail. This is grammatically called a "nonessential component," and in GW's case it's a whole extra sentence, due to the terrible writer. As I said, omitting that sentence doesn't change the meaning of the rule whatsoever, which means it's not essential.

 

I read it as these are the special rules of the Nemesis Force Weapons, which differ from bog standard Force Weapons. I have a real hard time believing that the characters' versions are gimped where the squads' versions are amazing.

[RedemptionNL]

The stuff between the commas is not necessary for understanding the full context of the whole bit; it only provides extra detail. This is grammatically called a "nonessential component," and in GW's case it's a whole extra sentence, due to the terrible writer. As I said, omitting that sentence doesn't change the meaning of the rule whatsoever, which means it's not essential.

 

Well, let's say you ommit the line 'Note that a unit of Grey Knights with the Brotherhood of Psykers special rule needs to take only a single Psychic test to 'activate' all of its force weapons' from the rule.

What exactly are the sentences following it specifying with 'the test' and 'the unit'? To me, 'the unit' is referring to 'the unit of Grey Knights with the Brotherhood of Psykers' and 'the test' is referring to 'the single Psychic test to 'activate' all of its force weapons'. Without the first line, these loose context, so I wouldn't call it nonessential.

 

I read it as these are the special rules of the Nemesis Force Weapons, which differ from bog standard Force Weapons. I have a real hard time believing that the characters' versions are gimped where the squads' versions are amazing.

 

What about Draigo's Titansword? It's not even a NFW so it most definitely cannot inflict psychic Instant Death to more than one opponent, no matter how you choose to interpret the NFW rule. I have an even harder time believing that the Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights, doesn't know how to use his force weapon as well as some random Techmarine or Captain of his chapter or an Inquistor, that isn't even a Grey Knight, who just happens to have found a Nemesis Daemon hammer. ;)

 

The NFW + Brotherhood of Psykers rule was probably made to avoid having to keep track of which squad member did what unsaved wound and to whom. Fluffwise I guess you could say it's one of those 'the sum is bigger than its parts' deals, so while the characters are more powerful psykers than a random squad member, the combined might of an entire squad of Grey Knights attuned to each other is more powerful.