Units that work well together

[maturin]

We've had several brilliant primers on C:SM units and listbuilding theory by the likes of DarkGuard, ShadowStalker Grim, Warp Angel, GreatCrusade08 and many others. I'd like to start a new discussion that I don't think has been covered in much detail yet - the idea that two units used together are more effective than using them alone or apart. Codex: Space Marines is full of potential synergies (I hate that word, but it works). It's been acknowledged in many posts that your army list needs to have units which complement each other, but so far it seems we've been a bit short on hard examples.

 

So what I'm proposing is a list of units that you've found to work well together. I'm thinking that these would involve 2-4 units at most (we don't want whole armylists posted here), and that you would describe the units involved, the benefits of using them together (and how they'd operate), the approximate minimum effective point cost (leaving room for variants), and any potential weaknesses. Ideally once we have enough examples a new player could put together a list by selecting several different "packages" of units....like shopping at Costco, sort of. :)

 

I realize there are hundreds of different possible combinations, but I'm hoping this will serve as a primer for beginners on what "synergy" is and how you can create it with different units in the codex. Old hands may see some new ideas to try out as well.

One thing I think we should avoid is classifying multiple units (ie "spamming) as combinations - that's all over the place and the benefits are obvious. There are downsides too, but I'd rather the thread not degenerate into a for spam/anti-spam debate.

 

So to start, the most obvious example I can think of (and one of the most popular) is Assault Terminators + Land Raider Crusader/Redeemer. Here's how I would structure the (package? combo?) listing/entry:

 

 

Package Listing:

Name: Mobile Assault

Units: Assault Terminators and Land Raider Crusader/Redeemer

Min. Cost: ~450 points

Benefits: Assault Terminators are the toughest close combat troops we have, but lack any ranged combat capability and are slow. Land Raider Crusaders/Redeemers provide them with mobility, protection, and assault grenades; they also have considerable firepower in and of themselves. The assault terminators inside may deter monstrous creatures from attacking the land raiders in close combat (perhaps).

Drawbacks: Expensive, and Eggs-in-one-basket syndrome.

 

 

Here's a combination I used over the weekend, that may be a bit more subtle:

 

Name: Alpha Strike Package

Units: Dreadnought (MM/HF/DCCW) in Drop Pod, Scouts (Combi-melta, PF + combat blades) in Land Speeder Storm (MM)

Min. Cost: ~340 points

Benefits: Alpha Strikes are often conducted with the expectation that the striking units will die in the next turn due to overwhelming enemy return fire. However, this can be prevented. If the scouts alpha strike but are at risk of being charged/shot by nearby units, then the drop podded dread can land and block LOS or movement to the scouts. If the dread drops in and is vulnerable to nearby melta guns, the scouts can swoop in and tie up the melta units in CC. Since the units are of different types (infantry vs walker) they can somewhat mitigate each others' weaknesses. In addition they can still each target vehicles or weaker infantry quite effectively, and can operate separately if the situation requires.

Drawbacks: Gives up 4 kill points relatively easily. Drop pod may scatter. Requires some practice to effectively isolate targets from the rest of opposing army.

 

 

Let's hear other combinations you've used successfully!

[Validar]

Name: The Sternguard Scalpel

Units: Sternguard fully loaded up on combi weaponsin a Drop Pod

Min. Cost: 335

Benifits: You throw the drop pod down in your opponent's deployment zone first turn and combat squad your Sternguard. They proceed by shooting their 5x combi melta (in each squad) at one vehicle each, easily tearing most to pieces. Alternatively you can have one half with combi meltas and the other with combi plasmas - in this way you can explode a land raider, and thus cripple the terminators, and follow up by taking them down with plasma.

Drawbacks: Your oppenent can lure the tactic and deploy accordingly. It is a onetrick pony that throws away a lot of points if it doesn't work as intended. The drop pod may be off, especially if you want to hit 2 units (though drop pod size + 2" is a lot!)

[ak-73]

Name: The Crimson Hunters

Units: Pedro Kantor and Tactical Marines in Rhinos

Min. Cost: 585, likely more

Benefits: you can build units of pseudo-Grey Hunters which makes the Tactical decent in both shooting and combat. Best done if you add another small unit of Sternguards or Honor Guard (in a transport) behind the frontlines and run Kantor with it, the Tacticals acting as screen.

Drawbacks: you are locking substantial parts of your army together; a kastle, even if it's a mobile kastle, is also susceptible to a number of devastating attacks like Blood Lance or newcron Tesla. And while the Tacticals are decent in assault, they are still no beater units.

[DarkGuard]

Fantastic idea, reminds me a bit of a similar thread for Nid units on the Tyranid Hive, will be good to see one for Marines on here :P.

 

Name: The Guard Spearhead

Units: Chapter Master, Honour Guard (pref Idaho pattern), Sternguard, pref with combi-meltas, both in Rhinos

Min. Cost: 590, likely to be more.

Benefits: A lethal and hard hitting combination capable of punching through most units in the game, be they Hammernators are normal squads of Tactical Marines. The Sternguard can pop tanks or soften units that the Honour Guard might struggle with, while the Honour Guard can protect the Sternguard from combat and keep them shooting.

Drawbacks: A lot of points spent into this hard hitting formation. Rhinos are cheap but also vulnerable to most anti-tank firepower, leaving them with a potential to be grounded away from their objective. These are also likely to be your two big units and therefore they can't be everywhere at once.

[Lysimachus]

Sternguard support:

 

Units: 10 SG in Rhino, fully equipped (PF, 4 or 5 Combi-M, 1 or 2 HF)

5 Assault Marines, Sgt with LC

Min cost: Depending on SG loadout, 400+

Benefits: No-one needs telling how to use the SG, but the Assault squad acts as a fairly cheap escort for them, running in cover behind the Rhino, ready to intercept/tarpit/assist against any CC units that the SG couldn't handle by themselves.

Drawbacks: Potentially quite expensive, still only 3+ saves, non-scoring.

 

If this were combined with Kantor, would be even better (scoring, +1A bubble), but obviously correspondingly more expensive.

[Mysticaria]

Name: The Untouchables

Units: 10x Scouts with Missile Launcher (or heavy bolter) and Telion (or Camo Cloaks) plus Thunderfire Canon (or MoTF, Techmarine, or Lysander)

Cost: ~300 (depending on options)

Benefits: A very resilient (to shooting anyway) scoring unit that can camp out in the backfield and benefit from a 2++ cover save. With a BS6 missile launcher, various sniper (or bolter) weapons and 4 thunderfire blasts they can even reach out and touch someone when needed. The combination of thunderfire canon and scouts works well since they can deploy into the same area if needed, both have long range, and both excel versus troops. The scouts still keep the option to infiltrate, outflank, and combat squad as needed so this combo has plenty of flexibility in deployment even in dawn of war scenarios.

Drawbacks: Sniper scouts are not the strongest in close combat and can die easily if they get assaulted. Thunderfire Canons can be a little fragile as they are artillery and suffer from those vehicle rules a bit. This combo is decidedly anti-personnel, so players should consider compensating with additional anti-vehicle measures in the rest of the army.

 

-Myst

[Vedicus]

Name: Hammer and Anvil (or the Turn 2 Alpha Strike, Beta Strike?)

Units: IC Dreadnought w/Heavy Flamer in a pod, Attack Bike Squadron with multimeltas (at least 2 bikes.)

Min Cost: 280

 

Benefits: The Dread-in-a-pod is a tried and true combo, the fact that we're using an Ironclad here means that he's not necessarily intended as a throwaway gambit. SOP for this combo would be to drop the pod on a flank and then turboboost the bikes up in support. The dread has the option of melting a tank, flaming some infantry, or (my favorite) popping smoke in anticipation of an assault. The bikes come in as the hammer, speeding towards the dread's anvil. Your opponent will hopefully have to use a lot of shooting to get rid of both threats, each of which is dangerous on its own but who together are capable of seriously weakening an armored flank. I run this with Vulkan so as to make the meltas that much more effective.

 

Drawbacks: Minimal, it's not a massive investment, and if the dread is killed you might still be able to salvage the bikes. Could be some easy killpoints (especially the pod) but that's a risk in any close range alpha strike. Pod drift is always a concern too, though a manageable one, especially if you're going for the turn 2 assault.

[Brother Captain Josef]

Interesting thread, much better than your average "What's better... Blah blah or blah blah?"

 

Name: It's ok lads, we've got a gun for that...

Units: 10 man Dev Squad loaded in anti-tank + Thunderfire Cannon.

Min cost: 350pts (1 lascannon + 3 M/Launchers)

 

Similar to the excellent Telion Scouts + Thunderfire set up mentioned by Myst but with better offence at cost of defence and scoring.

 

Benefits: 3+ cover saves, excellent fire base which enjoys good anti tank and good anti infantry. You opponent can not afford to ignore these units but it's a real pig for them to shift. Count on this affecting how your opponent plays against you.

Drawbacks: It's reliance on ruins is massive. Non scoring. Thunderfire may be epic in offence but is the quintessential 'glass cannon'.

[Ming]

Name: Buffalo Wings

Units: Wings, Celery, Carrots, Sauce, and Blue Cheese.

Min Cost: $4.50

 

Benefits: You won't go hungry playing 40K.

 

Negatives: Oily prints on models.

[Master Melta]

How about this? I've onyl used it a couple of times but it's very adaptable

 

Name: I've gotchu covered

Units: 2 tactical Squads, flamer, ML/HB/MM in Rhinos, 1 10 man tactical Terminator squad 2 x chain fist.

Min Cost: 820, Optimal 880

 

Combat squad the terminators to escort the tactical marines onto objectives. Equip Terminators with Chainfists to handle everything, including walkers that the tacticals mite be tarpitted against. Optimal loadout would include 2 x CML for the terminators. We know what Tactical squads can do. The terminators improve that, and also excel at everything they can't do: Take out heavy armor, fire on the run, powerfist to death stuff etc. Park tacticals on objective, and screen with terimators.

 

Benefits: Two scoring, all comers teams. Allows tactical squads to focus on AI and not have to worry about having to have something to deal with everything.

 

Drawbacks: Lots of Points but half of them you are spending in every non-scout army anyway.

[maturin]

Name: Buffalo Wings

Units: Wings, Celery, Carrots, Sauce, and Blue Cheese.

Min Cost: $4.50

 

Benefits: You won't go hungry playing 40K.

 

Negatives: Oily prints on models.

 

I'm sorry Ming, this is completely unacceptable. You forgot to specify the number of models in the unit - how is a beginner to know how far his spending will go? And I consider Celery, Carrots, Sauce, and Blue Cheese to be upgrades, not units. Please be more specific in the future.

 

 

:lol:

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Name: Burning Plasma Death

Units: Librarian with the Avenger and Null Zone, Command Squad with 4x plasma guns, Las/Plas Razorback

Min. Cost: 450 (including bare Captain to provide access to Command Squad)

How It Works: Every primary weapon in this squad is designed to make killing Space Marines exceptionally easy; Avenger cuts through both power armor and cover saves, while plasma wounds standard Space Marines on a 2+ and cuts through both power and Terminator armor. The Razorback provides mobility, protection from small arms fire, and multiple weapon systems that support the Command Squad's weapon and mission profiles, including a high-power anti-tank weapon for ease of popping enemy transports, thus opening the contents up to the squad's anti-infantry firepower. This set-up also excels when used against Monstrous Creatures due to the high volume of high-Strength shooting, and the Librarian's Null Zone power will ensure that the majority of your wounds get through a Daemon Prince/Greater Daemon's Invulnerable saves. In one game at a Tournament, this squad wiped out an entire squad of Grey Hunters -- that's a Rhino and ten Marines -- each turn for three consecutive turns, holding the center of the table and turning a rout into a draw.

Benefit: Provides high-Strength, high-volume shooting that excels against almost all targets -- light infantry mobs, heavy infantry squads, monstrous creatures, and light armor. As a non-Death Star unit, is likely to avoid catching lots of fire from the enemy until they've seen what exactly the unit can do.

Drawback: Low model count means that every wound that gets through Feel No Pain is going to be felt. Lack of dedicated close combat support leaves the unit vulnerable to first-strike melee units, especially since the majority weapons are reasonably close-range. Non-scoring.

[Coopervisor]

Package Listing:

Name: Mobile Assault

Units: Assault Terminators and Land Raider Crusader/Redeemer

Min. Cost: ~450 points

Benefits: Assault Terminators are the toughest close combat troops we have, but lack any ranged combat capability and are slow. Land Raider Crusaders/Redeemers provide them with mobility, protection, and assault grenades; they also have considerable firepower in and of themselves. The assault terminators inside may deter monstrous creatures from attacking the land raiders in close combat (perhaps).

Drawbacks: Expensive, and Eggs-in-one-basket syndrome.

 

I find that it's just too cheap. My personal, all or nothing super group is:

 

5 TH/SS Terminators

Librarian (Nullzone and Avenger), TDA + SS

LRC with extra armour and multimelta.

 

Then either Vulkan or Huron. Vulkan is cheaper and boosts the unit. Huron is cooler :)

 

Yes it's a vast amount of points, but it's served me well in the games I've ran it before.

[DarkGuard]

How can something be too cheap? Surely it's better if it runs cheaper because then you could add more things into your list :P.

[DerekLee688]

Name: Big Brother

Units: Dreadnought & 10x Marine Tac. squad

Min Cost: 285

Benefits: same Speed, access to double heavy weapons(dirt cheap on tacs), possible double power fist (one hidden/one at I:4), possible triple flamers (flamer/combi-f/heavy flamer), possible 2xPC+PG+Combi-plasma, counts as half of troop selection, objective taker/holder, Dread needs more wounds(tacs) and Tacs need extra mobile firepower & something immune to power weapons. AV12/3+ armor save.

Drawbacks: Not very mobile. Tacs are exposed to small arms fire. Though AV12 is relatively tough compared to infantry, still pales in comparison of older and recently added survivalbility boosters holo fields, necron shields, blessed/scared hull, demonic possession, invuln save, etc.

 

Plus, for what ever reason it may be beneficial, the tac squad can bubble wrap the dread to prevent basing.

[Koremu]

Name: Divided Squad

Units: Sgt+4 Tactical Brothers, Razorback, 2*Land Speeder

Min Cost: Varies by weapon load out. 250 base cost.

Benefits: Everything can move together, either unit can give a cover save to the other with some careful though, and the Razorback can Tank Shock units, forcing them to bunch up, whereupon a Heavy Flamer equipped Land Speeder Squadron have a nice target. Scoring.

Drawbacks: Scoring unit is quite small.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

A very cool thread! Right well I've had a brief look in and I can't see it so would like to add:

 

 

Name: Grim day

 

Units: Sternguard Squad x 7 - 5 Combi Upgrades, Librarian (with null zone and GOI) + Assault/Vanguard squad with Chaplain and jump packs (Assuming 10 Assault marines - 2 flamers and a Powerfist)

 

Min Cost: 635

 

Benefits: This makes use of the powers of 2 HQs, the first team being the librarian and sternguard who can teleport around and use their weapons to open vehicles and wither away a unit with their deadly fire (particularly those with re-roll saves). After they've put a few holes in the melee marines close in and with their chaplain hopefully mop up whoever survived, use assault marines for regular slicing or vanguard for tougher meats. Garnish with any upgrades felt neccessary.

 

Drawbacks: Fairly obviously the cost is one of the most prohibitive factors here as its going to be a good 1/3 of an army at 1500 points. However it forms a good core, though both HQs are used and some might say that the cost of the assault squad and chaplain is not a neccessity! The HQs are also at risk and if they die then they potentially lose the squad vital abilities

[Warp Angel]

Name: Sucker Punch

 

Units: Thunder Fire Cannon and first turn dropped Ironclad Dreadnaught

 

Benefits: Both are throwaway units with massive disruption and damage potential that require most armies to use similar weapons and equipment to counter in the first few turns of the game. Ignoring one or the other brings tremendous risk to your opponent, but few armies can manage to deal with both. Proper deployment of the units in relation to each other, your opponent, and the rest of your army can also force your opponent to split off forces to deal with them, allowing the remainder of your army to concentrate where you choose and make your opponent reactive instead of proactive in play. Each unit can act as bait to get your opponent to be predictable, making them a Sucker if they take the bait and a Sucker if they ignore such potent/disruptive units.

 

This is an advanced play strategy that requires a clear understanding of your opponent's capabilities and sufficient insight to shape the battlefield to your will. It also requires the wisdom to know when NOT to play the Sucker Punch and deploy differently.

[Warp Angel]

Package Listing:

Name: Mobile Assault

Units: Assault Terminators and Land Raider Crusader/Redeemer

Min. Cost: ~450 points

Benefits: Assault Terminators are the toughest close combat troops we have, but lack any ranged combat capability and are slow. Land Raider Crusaders/Redeemers provide them with mobility, protection, and assault grenades; they also have considerable firepower in and of themselves. The assault terminators inside may deter monstrous creatures from attacking the land raiders in close combat (perhaps).

Drawbacks: Expensive, and Eggs-in-one-basket syndrome.

 

I don't leave home without this. I make sure that I take the Land Raider as a Heavy Support choice though, specifically so that I have greater flexibility for those times when deploying them in the Mobile Assault package makes no sense.

 

Also, depending on the opponent, I will keep the whole package in reserve and use it to smash the enemy where I choose to do so, guaranteeing one turn of effective use. This is especially helpful against close-range, aggressive armies.

[Blitzkrieg861]

Name: Assaulting Alpha Strike

Units: Kayvaan Shrike, 10 x Assault Marines w/ 1 Power Fist, 10 x Scouts w/ 1 Power Fist, Drednought w/ Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer and Drop Pod.

Minimum Cost: 725pts

Benefits: Shrike's infiltrate and fleet bonus allows his Assault Marine squad and as many Scout squads as you want to field to assault first turn. If you go before your opponent this means free hits on any vehicle they place on the table (as they haven't moved yet) or allows a clear line to assault squishier infantry squads first turn as well. The Drednought provides anti-mech and anti-infantry support, this can be increase to field as many Drop Pods as you like with as many Dreds or other units that you like. Always keep your Drop Pod numbers odd.

Weaknesses: To benefit the most from this unit package you need first turn. If you go second you must be a little smarter with your deployment and settle for, likely, second turn assault. The Dred will still do it's normal roll however as it is drop podding in. This is certainly a more fun package than it is competative. Nothing better than seeing a Tau or IG general drop his jaw as you assault his lines first turn.

[Muctar]

Name: Assaulting Alpha Strike

Units: Kayvaan Shrike, 10 x Assault Marines w/ 1 Power Fist, 10 x Scouts w/ 1 Power Fist, Drednought w/ Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer and Drop Pod.

Minimum Cost: 725pts

Benefits: Shrike's infiltrate and fleet bonus allows his Assault Marine squad and as many Scout squads as you want to field to assault first turn. If you go before your opponent this means free hits on any vehicle they place on the table (as they haven't moved yet) or allows a clear line to assault squishier infantry squads first turn as well. The Drednought provides anti-mech and anti-infantry support, this can be increase to field as many Drop Pods as you like with as many Dreds or other units that you like. Always keep your Drop Pod numbers odd.

Weaknesses: To benefit the most from this unit package you need first turn. If you go second you must be a little smarter with your deployment and settle for, likely, second turn assault. The Dred will still do it's normal roll however as it is drop podding in. This is certainly a more fun package than it is competative. Nothing better than seeing a Tau or IG general drop his jaw as you assault his lines first turn.

You can also do this by taking scouts in squads of five and loading them into LSS. There's an increased cost, but the LSS with MM can give you more chances to crack open transports, giving your Assaulting Alpha Strike more disembarked infantry units to assault. The Cerberus Launchers may provide invaluable as well.

[Validar]

in reality you could prolly rewrite the combo to

 

Name: Shrike's alpha strike

units: Shrike and units with infiltrate

benifits: Pretty much any unit with the ability to infiltrate and fleet get into CC first turn. That means scouts for Space Marines, who also use their Move Through Cover to make the alpha strike even more secure - remember that vehicles are hit automatically before they move!

Shrike himself yeilds infiltrate to a unit. This means you can get fully loaded assault terminators into, or dangerously close to, CC in the first turn of the game. If you do this with a jump pack unit your charge is pretty much a guarentee. Works well with other first turn drops, such as Land Speeder Storms or Drop Pods.

Weakness: Depends a lot on first turn. If you're going second this won't work at all.

[maturin]

Name: Discount Mobile Cover

Units: AC Predator and Assault/Vanguard Marines (5-10)

Min. Cost: ~160 points

Benefits: The naked predator gives you mobile AV13 cover that can keep up with jump infantry, ideally hiding them from enemy LOS, or more likely giving them 4+ cover without dangerous terrain tests. Turn one move 12" + smoke gives you a pretty good likelihood of moving up on turn two as well. Upgrading with extra armor keeps the predator moving while upgrading the assault squad to 10 men + PF + 2xflamers gives you a more effective strike unit.

Weakness: Don't expect the predator to contribute by shooting anything. Assault marines often outmatched by CC specialists, Jump Vanguard are overpriced. You may not want to advance into the enemy's teeth at all...

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Name: ?

Units: Predator (usually Auto Las) and Typhoon Speeder (perhaps a pair)

Min. Cost: ~ 220

Benefits: Predators are awkward to deal with a range, due to AV13. So they make a solid backfield unit for tackling transports, mainly. After this, they then fire at heavy infantry such as Death Company, Nobz, etc. The Typhoon, is also solid at anti-transport shooting, but is also much nicer against light infantry due to the Heavy bolter and Frag Missiles. It is generally best to fire the Pred first, then hopefully start mopping up with the Typhoon second. So that is what they do offensively.

The real part of the combo is that the Typhoon can hide behind the Pred's turret and still get a 50% cover save. The cover save, in addition to being even further away from the foe, gives the Speeder some reasonable longevity. If the Speeders are a pair, the second can be without cover, yet due to the Squadron rules, gains cover too :D

Drawbacks: Works best when the rest of the army is meched up, providing AV saturation and so keeping things alive by virtue of the foe not being equipped to get through it all.

[maturin]

Name: ?

Units: Predator (usually Auto Las) and Typhoon Speeder (perhaps a pair)

 

Name suggestion: AV13 Landspeeder

 

 

;)

 

A nice idea - Predators are great cover!