Descent of Angels & Fallen Angels

[Captain Semper]

But, putting that aside, we can see some explanation within DoA as to how and why near on half of the Legion turned traitor.

 

Half the Legion? You should be looking for something in the region of 10%.

[Brother Ambroz]

Does the writing style change after the REALLY boring beginning of Descent of Angels? Otherwise there's no way I'd be able to finish it.

[WatchCaptainAzrael]

No, it's "boring" from beginning to end.

[Captain Idaho]

No, it's "boring" from beginning to end.

 

Yep.

 

Just skip to the end bit

with the Emperor. It's almost worth it, just because up until this point we have next to no information on him. Of course, later novels are much more juicey,

thus putting another nail in Descent of Angels' coffin!

[WatchCaptainAzrael]

..thus putting another nail in Descent of Angels' coffin!

No bias here, move along chaps. ;)

[BJORNin83]

Does the writing style change after the REALLY boring beginning of Descent of Angels? Otherwise there's no way I'd be able to finish it.

It depends on your mindset going into it.

 

The first time I picked it up, I was following the HH series in order. I had just finished Fulgrim, so of course my expectations were extremely high. I got through 50 pages and stopped reading. Now recently, about 1.5 years later, I picked DOA back up after reading ALL the series up until Prospero Burns, and it was very easy for me to get into. Then I read Fallen Angels immediately after, so it was like one 800 page book. I guess going into it with that mindset is why I liked it now this time around.

[Captain Idaho]

..thus putting another nail in Descent of Angels' coffin!

No bias here, move along chaps. :lol:

 

Nah. I am very rarely biased when reading literature. I dislike the book not just because it is about Dark Angels, since there are plenty of HH novels involving other Chapters/Legions I did enjoy reading. I dislike the book because it wasn't what it was billed to be (i.e. a HH novel) and was just painfully uninteresting to anyone but a fan of Dark Angels. Not to mention full of boring and uniteresting characters and a misrepresented Primarch.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

..thus putting another nail in Descent of Angels' coffin!

No bias here, move along chaps. :sweat:

 

Nah. I am very rarely biased when reading literature. I dislike the book not just because it is about Dark Angels, since there are plenty of HH novels involving other Chapters/Legions I did enjoy reading. I dislike the book because it wasn't what it was billed to be (i.e. a HH novel) and was just painfully uninteresting to anyone but a fan of Dark Angels. Not to mention full of boring and uniteresting characters and a misrepresented Primarch.

 

 

QFT.

 

WLK

[Pavement Artist]

Caliban is as much a character within the Dark Angels story as Luther or the Lion. You may not like the fact that it wasn't mariney enough for you but the fact is you had to explore the relationship between those characters and how it developed long before the involvement of the imperium. Im sure once the DA get a concluding novel, it'll make much more sense.

 

I doubt any new novel will make Descent of Angels more relevant. For a novel supposedly billed as giving us information on the character of the DA, it seemed to miss the mark when considering Johnson or the Marines as actually crusaders in the Great Crusade rather than children. The focus was all wrong in that book and unless you are a DA fan you likely would have felt the same.

 

And yet i've heard many people say that "Fallen Angels" Made "Descent" seem a lot more favourable. I'm of the opinion that people approached the novel with different expectations, mainly that they felt it was going to be marines all the way. Part of the problem is that up until DOA, the series had been continuing in a fairly linear fashion, and to have a novel that was set largely before the crusade may have seemed jarring.

 

If we just acknowledge that the story is that of the Dark Angels then do we not see that exploring pre imperial Caliban is a necessary move? I'm sorry it wasn't packed to the tits with marines but the point is what happens on that planet serves to define the chapter 10,000 years later.

[Captain Idaho]

If we just acknowledge that the story is that of the Dark Angels then do we not see that exploring pre imperial Caliban is a necessary move? I'm sorry it wasn't packed to the tits with marines but the point is what happens on that planet serves to define the chapter 10,000 years later.

 

That's part of the problem; it was a Heresy novel supposedly, but like you said it actually was a back ground supplement instead.

 

Of course the poorly laid out depiction of Johnson didn't endear me or many other people to the novel.

 

Each to their own of course.

[Candleshoes]

I actually saved both of these books to read last on my trumps through the Horus Heresy series, in part because people always gave a loud opinion that Descent was so off the beaten path.

 

I read Fallen Angels first (in preparation for Savage Weapons, which hooked me in with the imagery when the author posted his notes and thoughts in the Dark Angels forum, months before its release. That was a trip into character development). In FA, I was suprised at how much the portrayl of The Lion and who the Dark Angels are, was different than those author notes for Savage Weapons. Author flavor and their idea of what the Legion is aside, the events of what happened were good enough and the story was an entertaining cog in the HH wheel. It deffinetly felt like it was constrained by it's predecessor, and I can't help but wonder if Mike Lee would have written a much different story, had Descent never have been written.

 

When I came to Descent, it was with a mix of opinions. I wished to see the darkness and almost hopelessness that existed in Caliban, with the Orders and their problems with survival. What it was to live on a Deathworld with a Primarch, before the light of the emperor. Though it is specifically a DA story, many of the Legions would have had similar beginings. It was strange to think that the main character(s) they chose for such a heavy theme were the 10-15 year old boys who were petitioning to become knights. Simply put, this was not relatable or interesting and something about the character creation of a 10ish year old adolecent male, in something so vast and dark, set the tone in the wrong direction for me. It deffinetly took away from making the horror of their surrondings as real as it could be, as it was always seen through children's eyes. They always hope, and rarely accept, and the Deathworld died for me when they were the reader's eyes. I think a much smarter hook would have been to have an adult going through the events, who could then look sadly down upon the youth of Caliban, in a much more heavy hearted manner.

 

I have heard the phrase "poisoned chalice" used when refering to the DA's events in the HH series. It is unfortunate to have so many stories and books dedicated to so many people's ideas of the First Legion.

[Brother Ambroz]

Candleshoes- I haven't read Descent yet, so if I'm wrong forgive me. I had a thought while reading your post. Most of the book was through children's eyes yes? What age do Astartes initates begin at? If I remember correctly they need to be very young so that may be why the author chose to use children.

 

On another note I've only tried reading Descent once and I think I got a few chapters in before I gave up. Now that I've read essentially every HH book available I might give it another shot. Won't be expecting much so that might help a bit...

[Candleshoes]

You are completely right, as that is why he chose to use children as the main characters. The only problem was, the writing trivialized how horrifying Caliban was, and how large the events that the children took place in. Their views on what was going on certainly, an interesting idea for a viewpoint, didn't translate to an interesting heresy novel, especially one based on fleshing out the story of the Men of the Order.

[TennisBall]

it was a Heresy novel supposedly, but ... it actually was a back ground supplement instead.

 

I enjoyed both books despite being taken aback at first by the different tone compared to the previous books in the series. For a similar reason I was very disappointed in Battle for the Abyss and I also found Fulgrim "boring" at the beginning. I was wanting to go back into the world I'd been introduced to in the first four books and every new book seemed to be getting further away from that. It's why I started reading Fulgrim about half way through because I wanted to know about the heresy and not the events that happened before. Once I got over that silly mind block I thoroughly enjoyed the book from beginning to end.

I believe that if Descent of Angels was re-read by some here they'd find more to like about it as it does add to the lore of 30K. It gives insight into how Luther was able to be turned from Jonson, how the planet was more than just another survivor of old night, it harboured a very real evil (maybe that's why it was eventually destroyed).

[Zincite]

... How the planet was more than just another survivor of old night, it harboured a very real evil (maybe that's why it was eventually destroyed).

I'm pretty sure it was destroyed because, in essence, the Lion threw a rather hissy fit at being fired upon.

 

Or perhaps Luther self-destructed the planet. You never really know with the Fallen.

[BJORNin83]

... How the planet was more than just another survivor of old night, it harboured a very real evil (maybe that's why it was eventually destroyed).

I'm pretty sure it was destroyed because, in essence, the Lion threw a rather hissy fit at being fired upon.

 

Or perhaps Luther self-destructed the planet. You never really know with the Fallen.

Your first sentence is right. While Luther and El'Jonson fought, the world broke apart around them from the DA's orbital bombardment from above.

[TennisBall]

Or perhaps Luther self-destructed the planet. You never really know with the Fallen.

...

While Luther and El'Jonson fought, the world broke apart around them from the DA's orbital bombardment from above.

 

That doesn't make a lot of sense though does it. What sort of battle would require planet cracking weapons to be used? That is more extreme than exterminatus so why do it, especially if you have troops on the ground fighting (I assume there were).

 

Someone decided the planet needed to not exist anymore as I find it very hard to believe that it was destroyed by accident.

[MadDoc]

It wasn't just the orbital bombardment, when Luther lashed out with his sorcerous attack (when the Lion hesitated in striking down his former friend) seeing the agony on the Lion's face brought Luther to his senses, the Warp Storm caused by the Chaos Gods tantrum at losing yet another pawn is what caused the already bombardment weakened planet to tear itself apart.

[Grimdarkness]

In the IA for the Dark Angel,s it says jonson,s angry/fury was such that he broke the world with orbiltal bombardment. I always liked that this was the first show of emotion from are primarch.

[WatchCaptainAzrael]

It was hardly the first time the Lion showed emotion. I'd bet he lost his composure whenever he and Leman Russ met.

 

Then there are the excessively complex jokes and bird song mimicry. I bet he acted pretty awkward at those times. :D

 

One doesn't have to act excessively to show emotion.

[DIDM]

there is 0 reason for them in the series IMO

 

I read descent and skipped fallen

[TennisBall]

It wasn't just the orbital bombardment, when Luther lashed out with his sorcerous attack

Fair enough, I haven't read about this battle yet.

 

the Warp Storm caused by the Chaos Gods tantrum at losing yet another pawn is what caused the already bombardment weakened planet to tear itself apart.

You have to wonder how a planet can be "weakened". It must already have been damaged beyond repair/rendered unlivable.