Tengo Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 I fear I'm just a noob walking into a flame trap, but in pretty much every army list and army photos I see Landspeeders predominately armed with Typhoon missiles, but I've always plumped for the the AC, I've had a lot of bad experience with blast weapons in the past and even though I've had some real lucky hits a few times (Scattered to explode a loaded trukk is my fondest of them) I'm just iffy about blast weapons, I can't rely on them and the S5/Ap5 doesn't really tempt me enough to take the chance The 4 shot S6/Ap4 with rending is what first drew me to the Assault Cannon, very conveniently mounted on a Landspeeder no less! for just 25 points more than the typhoon, I always find the AC/HB combo pulls its weight and rarely lets me down, sure Twin-linked and 48' range is a great help, but I just don't feel the Typhoon is as good a choice as going for the AC. I currently field two of them with ACs, and it really doesn't feel like I'm wasting 50 points. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242696-typhoon-vs-assault-cannon/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gillyfish Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 I think the main reason is that we can now field them more cheaply than Codex marines, courtesy of our recent FAQ. The assault cannon build is still viable, but I suspect one of the reasons you see them is because of the perceived advantage they bring. I'm currently assembling one to try it out, although I've always been a fan of AC/HB combo. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242696-typhoon-vs-assault-cannon/#findComment-2934398 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Avoghai Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 I can't rely on them and the S5/Ap5 doesn't really tempt me enough to take the chance And to complete what Gillyfish says : typhoon are no longer S5/AP5 weapon but use the same profile as SM codex ie : a standar missile launcher (with the 2 types of ammo) with 2 shots. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242696-typhoon-vs-assault-cannon/#findComment-2934401 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Kovash Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 Once again Master Avoghai and Gillyfish give us what we need to know plain and simple. Tengo have you downloaded and printed out the Dark Angels FAQ yet? I did this almost immediately after it became available, and keep a copy with my codex every time I play. It's much easier showing it to your opponents than having to explain some of the rules changes, and it helps you out just as well. Here's the link in case you missed it: PDF Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242696-typhoon-vs-assault-cannon/#findComment-2934452 Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 ~shrug~ The thing about tornadoes is that if you take them as part of an attack squadron, they score...that helps justify the price... I had two of them before the current codex came out, but didn't use ANY speeders in the current book until the latest FAQ gave us the C:UM typhoons...at which point I immediately snapped up two of them! I like both builds...but I feel dirty using the tornadoes as scoring units in spite of their high cost...and that many points in an AV10 open topped vehicle that has to get inside 24" to do any good...~shudder~ Give me AV11 or drop the open topped damage table penalty, and I'll be a bit happier about it... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242696-typhoon-vs-assault-cannon/#findComment-2934558 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unforgiven2544 Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 Give me AV11 or drop the open topped damage table penalty, and I'll be a bit happier about it... They aren't open-topped. There used to be fluff about them being in power armor meant they don't count as open-topped. Now, they just took that bit out and replaced it with them not being classified as open-topped vehicles. All of the other entries (Raiders, Trukks, Vypers, etc) clearly list "Open-Topped" Land speeders do not have that. Hopefully I have brightened your day. :angry: Respectfully, --Unforgiven Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242696-typhoon-vs-assault-cannon/#findComment-2934587 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tengo Posted December 1, 2011 Author Share Posted December 1, 2011 And to complete what Gillyfish says : typhoon are no longer S5/AP5 weapon but use the same profile as SM codex ie : a standar missile launcher (with the 2 types of ammo) with 2 shots. Well, two Kraks at 48' changes everything! Frag missiles make the whole blast prospect less promising, but at least there's a choice Tengo have you downloaded and printed out the Dark Angels FAQ yet? I did this almost immediately after it became available, and keep a copy with my codex every time I play. It's much easier showing it to your opponents than having to explain some of the rules changes, and it helps you out just as well. Here's the link in case you missed it: PDF I've read the Errata and FAQs and few times, but I only ever remember a few of the clarifications I was actively looking for, it completely skipped my mind to print it off. Thanks for the lesson brothers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242696-typhoon-vs-assault-cannon/#findComment-2935023 Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 Give me AV11 or drop the open topped damage table penalty, and I'll be a bit happier about it... They aren't open-topped. Son of a back alley hooker! I hadn't used a land speeder in years and took two typhoons to Ard Boyz this year...and I'm sure I imposed the open-topped penalty on myself more than once, and nobody corrected me...but at least two opponents out of six actually brought it up themselves! I done been cheated!!!! Oh, well...thus the price of ignorance. Thanks for the lesson. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242696-typhoon-vs-assault-cannon/#findComment-2935161 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 Son of a back alley hooker! One of the most characterful swearings i ever heard :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242696-typhoon-vs-assault-cannon/#findComment-2935396 Share on other sites More sharing options...
pueriexdeus Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 Having both CML and AssCannon equipped DW in my army I have discovered that the AssCannon will usually take more Troop kills that the CML twin Frags. On the other hand the CML is great for decisive twin Krak kills in a unit. So it depends on how you plan to play your DW. I will usually have my CML DW in my deployment zone to take advantage of the range offered by the CML. They will support the AssCannon Sqds that are DWA/DS'ing. This mix is good for three too five dead OP's per turn. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242696-typhoon-vs-assault-cannon/#findComment-2935576 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ValourousHeart Posted December 4, 2011 Share Posted December 4, 2011 Ard Boyz... at least two opponents out of six... cheated!!!! There you go March, I fixed that for you. hahaha I am a strong fan of the assault cannon for speeders. Since the codex came out I have generally run 3 MM/AC speeders along side 5 HB/AC speeder and Sammie in his speeder in my 2500 point list. After the FAQ I tried running the typhoons, and I do like the extra range, and the better strength... But I find that the few shots that the typhoon gets impacts its performance when compared to the assault cannon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242696-typhoon-vs-assault-cannon/#findComment-2936668 Share on other sites More sharing options...
timmytool Posted December 4, 2011 Share Posted December 4, 2011 I'm firmly in the typhoon camp..... 3 strength 8 shots with a 6" move or 1 s8 2blast at 12" movement.... then it cost 25pts less then the assault cannon option In theory you could have 4 typhoon speeders to 3 tornado speeders if it was not for the 3 FA slot problem. Then as you can have the tornado in the RWAS (without the mutimelta) the tornado is even more costly when using the FA slots (and in the RWAS it is becomes scoring) from what I can see from this thread most believe the tornado is relatively equal to the typhoon so the 25% cost reduction for the typhoon with a arguable equal power level(arguably because I think it is better not just equal) makes it a no brainier. O did I mention the extra range it has...... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242696-typhoon-vs-assault-cannon/#findComment-2936983 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilnar Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 A.cannon/melta wrecks landraiders. But as a relitavly short range, Typhoon/melta wrecks MEQ 3s8 shots at ap3 or better. Can tank hunt too, Good at popping transports. Typhoon/bolter wrecks hordes, but not as well as the bolter/bolter of the SM book depends on your local meta to be honest. In the DA book I tend to run typhoon/melta singly In the SM book. Run two pairs, one dual bolter and one dual melta. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242696-typhoon-vs-assault-cannon/#findComment-2942904 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForTheLion Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 ~shrug~ The thing about tornadoes is that if you take them as part of an attack squadron, they score...that helps justify the price... I had two of them before the current codex came out, but didn't use ANY speeders in the current book until the latest FAQ gave us the C:UM typhoons...at which point I immediately snapped up two of them! I like both builds...but I feel dirty using the tornadoes as scoring units in spite of their high cost...and that many points in an AV10 open topped vehicle that has to get inside 24" to do any good...~shudder~ Give me AV11 or drop the open topped damage table penalty, and I'll be a bit happier about it... where does it say that they are scoring? in sammys entry it only states that they can be taken as troops. nowhere does it say theyre scoring! (rulebook states vehicles cant score) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242696-typhoon-vs-assault-cannon/#findComment-2943354 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacinda Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 C:DA, pg 27. The block on the bottom right labeled "Ravenwing Combat Squads", middle paragraph. Much like Combat squads, the squadron's Attack Bike and Land Speeder are purchased together with the squadron and then deployed at the same time as the squadron's bikes, but from then on they always operate as completely independent scoring units of one model. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242696-typhoon-vs-assault-cannon/#findComment-2943370 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForTheLion Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 Nice! :tu: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242696-typhoon-vs-assault-cannon/#findComment-2943422 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tengo Posted December 13, 2011 Author Share Posted December 13, 2011 I always took that to mean Scoring 'Kill Points' for annihilation games, it does say on page 90. (of the little rulebook) under the Scoring units subheading that: "There are a few exceptions, however, when a unit of Troops does not count as scoring: - It is a vehicle" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242696-typhoon-vs-assault-cannon/#findComment-2943428 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacinda Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 Yes, but they are not troops. Also ... Codex trumps BRB. The Assault bike and the Land Speeder taken with a Ravenwing Attack Squad are scoring units. It is one of those oddities that has been around for awhile. It has survived at least two FAQ/Errata updates even tho it is a known loophole. Ravenwing bikes can not turbo-boost for their scout moves and the attack bike is a scoring unit. Welcome to un-updated 4th Ed rules. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242696-typhoon-vs-assault-cannon/#findComment-2943450 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tengo Posted December 13, 2011 Author Share Posted December 13, 2011 Yes, but they are not troops. Also ... Codex trumps BRB. The Assault bike and the Land Speeder taken with a Ravenwing Attack Squad are scoring units. It is one of those oddities that has been around for awhile. It has survived at least two FAQ/Errata updates even tho it is a known loophole. Ravenwing bikes can not turbo-boost for their scout moves and the attack bike is a scoring unit. Welcome to un-updated 4th Ed rules. They're troops when taken with Sammy, but the fact that they are otherwise not troops, furthers the case that they shouldn't be able to score, because only troops can. I'm not saying you're wrong, just that, they really should make what they mean a lot more clear. But scoring bikes + speeder? That just made my day, what a lovely little surprise to spring on your opponent in the last turn. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242696-typhoon-vs-assault-cannon/#findComment-2943529 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacinda Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 I know. More cheese than Wisconsin. FWIW I never play it that way. It is an obvious mistake. But it is one that has persisted. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242696-typhoon-vs-assault-cannon/#findComment-2943564 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 They had many chances to correct it, along with our bikes not turbo-boosting during scout move. Fair trade IMHO. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242696-typhoon-vs-assault-cannon/#findComment-2943600 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Avoghai Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 Just a side note : sternguards are not troops. However when you play Cortez they count as scoring. Codex rules overrides BBB ones... And non troops units may score... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242696-typhoon-vs-assault-cannon/#findComment-2944007 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freman Bloodglaive Posted December 15, 2011 Share Posted December 15, 2011 Kantor, but yes. Unless they FAQ it otherwise Land Speeders bought as part of bike squadrons are scoring units. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242696-typhoon-vs-assault-cannon/#findComment-2945098 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piousservant Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 Assault Cannon wins by Rule of Cool. Land Speeder Tornados are awesome. That is all. :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/242696-typhoon-vs-assault-cannon/#findComment-2945461 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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