Terminus Ultra

[march10k]

I recently put one together for Tanksgiving, slapping on three colors at the speedpainting competition, then brought it home to partially disassemble and take my time on a proper paint job...it's done now, and looks awesome (pic to follow), but... I'm less sold on it than I was before Tanksgiving. Five lascannons are kind of useless if/when you want/need to move, since you then only get to fire two weapons...making it pretty much a pillbox most of the time. Considering that you can get a full lascannon dev squad (3+/4++ in cover, right?) for a few more points and be at far less risk of a catastrophic loss, I can't imagine actually fielding it in a non-APOC game until and unless all tanks get to move 6" and shoot everything. It just seems to be too many points for something that can't really move and shoot, and can be brought down with a single shot. Agree? Disagree? Thoughts on how to work around the limitations? I'm thinking that you'd need to park it in obscuring cover that doesn't block the guns' LOS where you have good fire lanes to dominate at least part of the board (or overwatch an objective) to get good use out of such a model...and finding that bit of cover to stash it in won't happen often...

[Chaplain Lucifer]

I agree with your assessment. Right now it's difficult to use it to the max. It's a pillbox that can be taken in one shot.. furthermore with the abundance of 4+ cover saves the lascannons aren't as effective as they were.

To use it you need a good piece of terrain to obscure it or a rhino/razorback in case there's no adequate piece of terrain. It's a great kit but gaming wise it has limitations.

[Brother Immolator]

However one could argue that it is the first land raider that doesnt suffer from the schizo syndrome.It place is well defined.

 

P.S.I have yet to see a land raider be blown by a single non melta shot in a year of gaming.

[Brother Kovash]

I built one to use in an apocalypse game that eventually was canceled, so I never actually got to use mine. I was only going to bring it because we needed an extra legendary unit for the side I was playing on. I think if you field one it becomes a magnet for heavy fire immediately, but to be honest Land Raiders in general usually draw an enemy's attention, so that should be expected.

[march10k]

However one could argue that it is the first land raider that doesnt suffer from the schizo syndrome.It place is well defined.

 

P.S.I have yet to see a land raider be blown by a single non melta shot in a year of gaming.

 

On the first point, I understand your point, but I disagree...Mars pattern, sure, it can carry termies, but really, I find its troops capacity is best used to shelter troops from enemy fire, not for delivering them into melee...it's really just a tank that can move 6" and still fire two godhammers...at separate targets! And should it sit still for whatever reason, it gets to fire both godhammers at one target and the TLHB at a separate target. The crusader is pure assault transport, pumping out 10-16 shots while moving 6" a turn and gives you the benefit of frag as you assault from a moving vehicle...what's more, its guns don't really ramp up their shooting until you get into assault range anyway. That's not schizophrenic! Can't really comment on the other variants, as I've never seen the flame-tastic one (or any other) in a game.

 

On the second point, I'd love for the TU to be able to take armored ceramite...that would solve all my problems with fielding the tank...even for 350 points (assuming the upgrade costs a staggering 50 points, instead of the 20-ish I've seen on FW experimental rules)! Actually, how about armored ceramite on the front and sides only? melta guns would fail, but meltabombs would still strike rear armor... Even just getting the upgrade on the front armor would do a lot of good and be well-balanced, although it'd better be cheap if it's only on the front!

[Brother Kovash]

On the second point, I'd love for the TU to be able to take armored ceramite...that would solve all my problems with fielding the tank...even for 350 points (assuming the upgrade costs a staggering 50 points, instead of the 20-ish I've seen on FW experimental rules)! Actually, how about armored ceramite on the front and sides only? melta guns would fail, but meltabombs would still strike rear armor... Even just getting the upgrade on the front armor would do a lot of good and be well-balanced, although it'd better be cheap if it's only on the front!

 

The armored ceramite would be an awesome upgrade. One game I played recently had me using Mephiston swinging at a Land Raider Achilles over 3 turns trying to wreck it, but finally after I destroyed the last weapon I moved on to find some new targets. If I had the chance to field the Terminus Ultra again, I would more than willing to pay extra points for the armored ceramite.

[Brother Immolator]

The damned things cant decide what they are:Heavy assault transports or firebases?You pay for both but cant use them as both(at least in most turns)thats schitzo imho.

[march10k]

...as promised:

The damned things cant decide what they are:Heavy assault transports or firebases?You pay for both but cant use them as both(at least in most turns)thats schitzo imho.

I knew exactly what you meant by the comment, but IMHO, it doesn't really apply. ANY vehicle is going to be limited to 6" movement to be able to fire any weapons, so you can't really hold "it can't move 12" and still shoot" against the land raider. Being able to assault from a moving vehicle at all is MONEY. I think it's fine to move 6" a turn (after all, that's how fast you'd move on foot, with the differences that you're not being shot at, and that firing two godhammers is probably DRAMATICALLY better than firing any assault/rapid-fire weapons you might be toting!). And if you happen to get shaken or stunned (not unlikely in spite of AV14), you have no excuse not to already be pointed the right way and no reason not to motor 12" straight ahead (unless it's time to charge). I think the schizo charge is a bit...unfair. Anything that can move 6" and still shoot two heavy weapons CAN be a firebase and an assault transport simultaneously, and successfully. Personally, though, I prefer the crusader...moving 6", dropping 16+ shots, providing the equivalent of frag grenades to the passengers...now THAT's an assault transport! As I said, I only hope hurricane bolters get six shots appiece out to 24" in the next BRB...basically becoming three twinlinked stormbolters per sponson (the way to do that is to institute a rule that vehicle-mounted -not necessarily those fired by passengers from a fire point!- rapid fire weapons count as stationary so long as the vehicle would normally be allowed to fire any weapons). That would allow 16 twinlinked shots at 24" range AFTER having moved 6"!!!!

[Captain Semper]

Hey, great job there march10k! Whatever the argument about its usefulness it sure does look the part! :)

 

Congrats!

 

 

For the Lion!

[Master Avoghai]

On the use of LR terminus :

 

I personnaly don't like the model. The 5 lascannons are way over the top for me. Replacing the HB by a TLLC would have been enough IMO. I'm also not really found the design... It really like if the designer has glued alll the lascannons he has found in its bitz box... The lateral TLLC cannot hav a full atc of fire due to the othe lascannons. And that's'also maybe why I find this tank too much : finally you can't fire the 5 LC on the same target. Actually you cannot even fire 4 LC on the same target. It means that in the best case you won' be able to use more that 4LC/turn (3 on the primary target and 1 using the machine spirit).

 

 

On the general LR : I've recently used 3 LR + 1 caestus (aflying LR after all :-D )in a 3000pts game. What I have to say is that you don't really suffer from the schizo problem. At turn one you rush 12" and disembark your troops. After that it's'really rare that you'll use the LR as transport. Hence you sue it as fireplatform (and fire magnet) during 4/5 turns. In this use I reaaly appreciate the godwyn pattern cos I can move and shoot 2TLLC per turn and I can shoot on 2 different target. To do the same thing I have to use 2 RZB or 2 pred... Meaning I have to sacrifice 2HS choice instead of one for the pred and without the same Armor value in every case... A nice deal for me.

[Brother Immolator]

You mean Godhammer,godwyn pattern are the bolters :lol:

 

I employ a similar tactic to you but i use a crusader.Whats the point of having lascannons at point blank range?Their strength is range.

Plus a melta ofc.

 

march10k thats one sweet looking raider.You do the chapter proud!

[march10k]

On the use of LR terminus :

 

The lateral TLLC cannot hav a full atc of fire due to the othe lascannons.

 

 

IIRC, this has been ruled...incorrect. IIRC, by rule, the TLLCs on the sides of the tank have a 180 degree arc (passing through the non-TL cannons to their front). I've also seen a couple of kitbashes where the non-TL LC's mount is shortened in towards the hull and the TLLC mount gets extended out. It only takes about 4mm of adjustment to each to allow the TLLCs to shoot past the weapons to their front reality. In any case, any time a mars pattern landraider would be able to fire both godhammers at one target (requires a relatively large target!), the TU can fire all five...provided that it hasn't moved (which is the real problem with the tank)

[Jacinda]

P.S.I have yet to see a land raider be blown by a single non melta shot in a year of gaming.

 

Funny you sould mention that. Over Thanksgiving we had some frinds at our house for a few games. I saw my room mate take out a LR with a single zapgun.

 

However, some odds for the feat are (assuming a BS of 4 and no cover):

Lascannon: 2.8%

TW Lascannon: 4.2%

Exorcist ML: 4.8%

Krak missle: 0.0%

 

Other than some of the more exotic choices like an assassin with turbo pen rounds (or the old school void grenades :yes: ) if you can't get melta on a LR or bunker you should use chainfists or equivalent. That extra die on penetration is almost a must have.

[Master Avoghai]

You mean Godhammer,godwyn pattern are the bolters :lol:

Ooops yeah I stand corrected :oops:

 

I employ a similar tactic to you but i use a crusader.Whats the point of having lascannons at point blank range?Their strength is range.

Plus a melta ofc.

 

Yeah but you don't shoot on the same target with a TLLC and TLbolters..

In addition I've discovered along my battles that you always miss the 2" when you need it. Of course you get at short range frm your termis target after 1st turn. But it doesn't mean your LR will have to target the squad that the termis will charge. Often that would be the worst choice actually. You'd'better target that rhino with 4 meltas within to cover your termis from a painful meeting 2 turns later.

 

In this approach 24" range of the TLAC/MM are often a bit short (and since you'll lose the bonus D6 for melta shoots most of the time, you'll prefer a re-rollable S9 shot rather than a single S8 shot)

 

IIRC, this has been ruled...incorrect. IIRC, by rule, the TLLCs on the sides of the tank have a 180 degree arc (passing through the non-TL cannons to their front). I've also seen a couple of kitbashes where the non-TL LC's mount is shortened in towards the hull and the TLLC mount gets extended out. It only takes about 4mm of adjustment to each to allow the TLLCs to shoot past the weapons to their front reality. In any case, any time a mars pattern landraider would be able to fire both godhammers at one target (requires a relatively large target!), the TU can fire all five...provided that it hasn't moved (which is the real problem with the tank)

 

Even if this has been corrected I really find this design strange and it doesn't resolve the problem of "do the LR really need those 2 additionnal sponsons?". IMO those sponsons don't justify the price hike AND the loss of transport capacity. Like you've said : the main problem is that you'll have not to move AND find a target big enough to shoot at..

But at the end, I don't see a job this LR can do, that a LR with only 3TLLC can't...

 

Nice painting though ;-)

[march10k]

IMO those sponsons don't justify the price hike AND the loss of transport capacity. Like you've said : the main problem is that you'll have not to move AND find a target big enough to shoot at..

But at the end, I don't see a job this LR can do, that a LR with only 3TLLC can't...

 

I agree with all of that...they say you lose the transport capacity (do you really want it anyway?) on this tank to make room to power all those extra guns...um, if you count individual lascannon barrels, it's 8 versus the 4 on a mars pattern...except that you've also deleted ammo storage for the twinlinked heavy bolters...it doesn't add up. That's the basis for my argument that too much cubeage has beed deleted for just a bit more las-blasting capacity...combine that with the move-or-shoot limitation, and I have an excellent basis for demanding armored ceramite! That, or drop the price down to match the other species of land raiders. 50 points PLUS the loss of the troop compartment (and assault ramp) is a bit much for what amounts to a bonus pair of godhammers that it's virtually impossible to use effectively (okay, their intended prey is super-heavies, which are large enough to shoot with all five guns...but how often do you see those on the table?). Maybe in the next book POTMS will allow the engagement of a second target without limiting you to a single weapon (and allow you to fire normally at a single target when shaken/stunned, perhaps at reduced WS?)...being able to fire three at one and two at another target would go a long way towards making th LRTU useful.

[Brother Kovash]

Nice work march10k. I hope you magnetized the sponsons instead of gluing them on? I built mine originally with blue tac, but if I ever go back to using one I'm planning on using magnets for the sides.

[march10k]

Nice work march10k. I hope you magnetized the sponsons instead of gluing them on? I built mine originally with blue tac, but if I ever go back to using one I'm planning on using magnets for the sides.

 

 

You know, several people recommended that course of action...truth is, I have two crusaders and a mars already, so I didn't bother...I am painting up a TLHB for the hull mount out of spares, and with that in place, most anyone would allow it to proxy as a mars pattern if I ever wanted to field two of those...with the TLHB as a visual cue, it's not hard to imagine the non-twin lascannons away.... Most of the time, though, it's two crusaders for me and no third heavy choice at all...The TU probably won't see service outside of APOC, where there's no such thing as enough, let alone too many(!), land raiders.

[Brother Kovash]

Yes, you can never have too many Land Raiders! I don't have a single LR to use in regular games, so I will magnetize the one I have now so I can switch it back and forth. I haven't had a chance to play any apoc games lately though, so my own TU might not make an appearance for a while.