Musings on the Inner circle

[puck]

So I've been kicking around some thoughts on the structure of Legion. Specifically the Inner Circle:

 

It appears to me based on Angels of Darkness and articles in the Librarium that members of the Inner Circle are 1) not necessarily in the Deathwing "the company" and 2) not totally aware of each other's existence. Further, it appears that there are certain levels of seniority within the Circle about which members of "lower" circles are not aware. This led me to ponder how a system like this could work. This was my train of thought:

 

First, its fairly established the the "IC" extends throughout all of the Unforgiven so as to coordinate their efforts. This leads me to the conclusion that much like the Black Templars or Space Wolves who obscure,conceal or downright lie about their true numbers. The Successor chapters of the Unforgiven are simply a way for the Dark Angels to recruit in large numbers without being bothered by the High Lords. The example being something like

 

General:"Hey why are there 1500 DAs in this campaign?"

Grand Master:"There's not; 500 are DAs, 500 are AoR, and 500 are Consecrators."

General:"But the only real difference between them is what color their armor is."

Grand Master:"You've seen through our rouse!!"

 

With this in mind, there would be instances where senior leadership in the Legion wouldn't always come from the First Founding chapter. So this made me think about mechanically, how could this be achieved: What if the order of induction was recorded. Those inducted after you would be your subordinates and before you your superiors. Now during meetings and inductions, say everyone obscures their identity except for the inductee. In this way you would see the faces of those inducted after you and therefore know their identity to give them orders from the deathwing however you would not know the identity of your superiors

So that apothecary you thought was un-inducted actually knows more than you...

. At induction your "go codes" are proclaimed to all the members(of unknown identity to you) of the IC. In this way Superiors may command you on the battlefield without overt chain of command issues arising in front of the "uninducted". Example:

 

Terminator Srgt (IC#543): "we should take that hill."

Interrogator Chaplin (IC#546 note inducted after said sergent): "No we should secure that building."

Now in a standard chapter no other argument should take place as Chaplins are above mere sergents even first company ones.

Terminator Srgt: "Chaplin sir, The sun shines on us favorably"

Interrogator Chaplin: "You know that hill does seem pretty cool...Charge!"

 

Another thought I had while considering the "hidden legion" style of the Unforgiven, would be that marines could be shuffled around where they're needed and that many of the green marines in the stories told about the chapter are actually Deathwing members. Say a large nest of Fallen is found but its in an area of significant observation ie: you can't have a five chapter coalition magically appear in a seemingly minor engagement as that would rise suspicion. So "Deathwing the company" members are pulled from several chapters, and one "Dark Angels" "greenwing" force appears. The marines fight incredibly (because they've all got freakin' terminator honors) and many stories are told of the "unmatched zeal and fury of the Dark Angels" (sound familiar) and no one's the wiser.

 

This seems like a fairly plausible explanation for some of the things about the Unforgiven that have been bothering me. What are your thoughts on this?Am I just covering old ground? Does this even make sense?

[shabbadoo]

With this in mind, there would be instances where senior leadership in the Legion wouldn't always come from the First Founding chapter. So this made me think about mechanically, how could this be achieved: What if the order of induction was recorded. Those inducted after you would be your subordinates and before you your superiors. Now during meetings and inductions, say everyone obscures their identity except for the inductee. In this way you would see the faces of those inducted after you and therefore know their identity to give them orders from the deathwing however you would not know the identity of your superiors

So that apothecary you thought was un-inducted actually knows more than you...

. At induction your "go codes" are proclaimed to all the members(of unknown identity to you) of the IC. In this way Superiors may command you on the battlefield without overt chain of command issues arising in front of the "un-inducted". Example:

 

Terminator Srgt (IC#543): "we should take that hill."

Interrogator Chaplin (IC#546 note inducted after said sergeant): "No we should secure that building."

Now in a standard chapter no other argument should take place as Chaplains are above mere sergeants even first company ones.

Terminator Srgt: "Chaplin sir, The sun shines on us favorably"

Interrogator Chaplin: "You know that hill does seem pretty cool...Charge!"

Deathwing are not Inner Circle. Look at your Chapter Org chart again. An Interrogator-Chaplain is Inner Circle, and the minimum ranked Interrogator-Chaplain will outrank any in the Deathwing who are not also Inner Circle, like Belial. the only exception to that might be some other Deathwing special character who really is a member of the Inner Circle, but that is seconded to the Deathwing for a special purpose. No such character exists at the moment, but there could be one...

 

Also, it is a very poor idea to have hidden commanders that screw with a battle plan in the midst of a battle. I agree that the "circles within circles" aspect of rank and secrecy in the Chapter is something that definitely deserves further exploration though. Perhaps DA will get that in nice, fat, 150 page hardcover 6E codex. One can hope.

[Azoriel]

Nestor identified himself as Deathwing and not Inner Circle, which should be quite telling; Boreas' ignorance did not stem from any lack of rank, but rather not having been read in to certain special programs. Bear in mind that Boreas also didn't know about the fortress' virus bomb, whereas Hephaestus did - and Hephaestus clearly wasn't even Deathwing!

[Arioch]

That an apothecary would know a secret that an Interrogater-chaplin would not is not very plausible. Sure, it showed the secretiv nature of the chapter, but did not make much sence anyway. The techmarine and the virusbomb was almost retarded. "Oh bye the way, we got this bomb in case of emergencies, but you where not supposed to know, even though you are one of the highest ranking members in the entire chapter....they could not trust you but they could trust me...a techmarine.... ".

Stupid ;)

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Playing devil's advocate, the virus bomb could be a thing only known by techmarines because of the training on Mars. Techmarines know about it , but probably no almost one ever does (maybe just very high IC members) because it's need to know basis and.. well, the rest of the chapter doesn't need to know they are sharing space with life eater virus.

[Captain Semper]

So I've been kicking around some thoughts on the structure of Legion. Specifically the Inner Circle:

 

It appears to me based on Angels of Darkness and articles in the Librarium that members of the Inner Circle are 1) not necessarily in the Deathwing "the company" and 2) not totally aware of each other's existence.

 

Yes that is correct. The book came out in 2003, after the 3rd ed. Codex. The 3rd ed. Codex (through the rules) actually made this distinction .i.e. Deathwing is in fact a circle of knowledge as well as the name of the 1st Company. Obviously all members of the 1st Company are DW inductees but DW the circle extends outside the 1st Company. In 3rd ed. you could get a vet. sergeant and upgrade him to DW status. That to me implied that the Inner Circle would choose how many of the DW members will join the 1st Comp. and how many will continue to serve in their companies to better serve the Inner Circle aims. In this line of thinking you could conceivably get Inner Circle members never having joined the first company - although I'd imagine these are few and very rare cases (maybe even extraordinary individuals that the Inner Circle as a body wishes them to remain "low profile" even by DA standards). In this latter category is Nestor. And I say he never joined the 1st Comp. because the indentities of the members of the 1st Comp. are not secret. If Nestor had joined the 1st it would have been common knowledge that he would at least be a DW member - something that Boreas was oblivious to.

 

Further, it appears that there are certain levels of seniority within the Circle about which members of "lower" circles are not aware. This led me to ponder how a system like this could work. This was my train of thought:

 

First, its fairly established the the "IC" extends throughout all of the Unforgiven so as to coordinate their efforts. This leads me to the conclusion that much like the Black Templars or Space Wolves who obscure,conceal or downright lie about their true numbers. The Successor chapters of the Unforgiven are simply a way for the Dark Angels to recruit in large numbers without being bothered by the High Lords.

 

Yes. For DAs and successors there is definately the hidden Legion theme out there. Right now it is only briefly mentioned but it is definately an area for GW to build on in the future. Because as it stands now it could mean anything from a tight (albeit covert) co-operation to a loose understanding between individual Chapter Masters. I personally like ti think it's the former but people could argue for the latter as well. Now it's a matter of personal preference. In the future - who knows? Maybe GW wil take a clearer stance. Or not! :tu:

 

With this in mind, there would be instances where senior leadership in the Legion wouldn't always come from the First Founding chapter.

 

Spot on! I am completely on the same line of thinking. Of course people that reject the strong "one Legion" theme might disagree but for me this stands to reason and it's actually a pretty cool plot line for DAs.

 

So this made me think about mechanically, how could this be achieved: What if the order of induction was recorded. Those inducted after you would be your subordinates and before you your superiors. Now during meetings and inductions, say everyone obscures their identity except for the inductee. In this way you would see the faces of those inducted after you and therefore know their identity to give them orders from the deathwing however you would not know the identity of your superiors

So that apothecary you thought was un-inducted actually knows more than you...

. At induction your "go codes" are proclaimed to all the members(of unknown identity to you) of the IC. In this way Superiors may command you on the battlefield without overt chain of command issues arising in front of the "uninducted". Example:

 

Terminator Srgt (IC#543): "we should take that hill."

Interrogator Chaplin (IC#546 note inducted after said sergent): "No we should secure that building."

Now in a standard chapter no other argument should take place as Chaplins are above mere sergents even first company ones.

Terminator Srgt: "Chaplin sir, The sun shines on us favorably"

Interrogator Chaplin: "You know that hill does seem pretty cool...Charge!"

 

That is actually pretty funny :P

 

But I like to think that there are indeed Circles within Circles (sometimes not necessarily co-centric making the whole thing even more paranoid B)) so just saying that the newest member is also the less "knowledgeable" seems pretty restrictive to me. My take is that "the powers that be" will choose to illuminate a certain individual (i.e. advance him on higher levels even within the Inner Circle) based on personal merit or level of devotion or, dare I say, fanatiscism? I agree though that Nestor's position seems to imply a progression through age supporting also the view that the older you are the more deeper in the inner Circle you are. Again room for personal interpertation.

 

Another thought I had while considering the "hidden legion" style of the Unforgiven, would be that marines could be shuffled around where they're needed and that many of the green marines in the stories told about the chapter are actually Deathwing members. Say a large nest of Fallen is found but its in an area of significant observation ie: you can't have a five chapter coalition magically appear in a seemingly minor engagement as that would rise suspicion. So "Deathwing the company" members are pulled from several chapters, and one "Dark Angels" "greenwing" force appears. The marines fight incredibly (because they've all got freakin' terminator honors) and many stories are told of the "unmatched zeal and fury of the Dark Angels" (sound familiar) and no one's the wiser

 

This seems like a fairly plausible explanation for some of the things about the Unforgiven that have been bothering me. What are your thoughts on this?Am I just covering old ground? Does this even make sense?

 

Hahahaha!! This is the coolest theory ever! :lol: Deathwing becoming under cover Greenwing!!! Sure why not!

 

 

 

Nestor identified himself as Deathwing and not Inner Circle, which should be quite telling; Boreas' ignorance did not stem from any lack of rank, but rather not having been read in to certain special programs. Bear in mind that Boreas also didn't know about the fortress' virus bomb, whereas Hephaestus did - and Hephaestus clearly wasn't even Deathwing!

 

Ermm, sorry Azoriel, Nestor actually identified himself as Inner Circle. He actually says "I am six hundred and seventeen years old, did you really think that after all this time I would not be a member of the Inner Circle? That's why a veteran like myself is here on this forsaken outpost. To protect the future, to guard the gene-seed." It's on p.268-269.

[Brother Immolator]

Putting out shenanigans among the unforgiven troops,however funny it sounds i think its out of the question.

 

First of all not all marines in the chapters are knowledgeable about our secrets.The first companies one might argue that they are...But why deploy troops for a specific mission and have them all as DA?If something were to go horribly wrong it would be the strongest proof the inquisition would need to make a huge move against us.By the same token if two black templar crusades ever met they would change their heraldry to uniform and then launch the attack?

Add to this that you would offend the machine spirits of the armors with all those repaints.

Also imagine this:

 

Brother Bob from the AoA:Hey,why has the first company painted their armor bone white?

Brother Jim from the AoA(inner circle):You know you ask too much brother...After they return i know who is going to repaint them in their original colours....

 

On the other hand its not unheard off for chapters to band along side their primogenitors to complete missions in the 'name of the emperor'.So IMHO it would not rise suspicions.

 

And after all just because we know that there is something fishy with our chapter,it doesnt mean that inside warhammer,there is an inquisitor tailing every unforgiven chapter awaiting to brand the heretic brand.There are some but i dare say we have kept them at a distance so far.

[puck]

Putting out shenanigans among the unforgiven troops,however funny it sounds i think its out of the question.

 

The basic assumption I made was that IC members would not feel the need to exercise direct control over lower Circle members unless and until the greater knowledge they (the higher up) possessed gave them some important insight necessary for the battle. Not that individual sergeants would try to usurp the direction and control of a battle plan because they like to do it a certain way.

 

The fact that overt rank in the chapter is not directly tied to the amount of knowledge a member possesses is IMO a large part of what makes us a codex divergent "chapter". In any other chapter, knowledge and scope about the agendas of the chapter is directly and exclusively tied to rank but in our own fluff there are examples of ambiguity in this regard.

 

But why deploy troops for a specific mission and have them all as DA?If something were to go horribly wrong it would be the strongest proof the inquisition would need to make a huge move against us.By the same token if two black templar crusades ever met they would change their heraldry to uniform and then launch the attack?

Add to this that you would offend the machine spirits of the armors with all those repaints.

 

The idea behind repainting and shuffling numbers is to obscure the numbers being brought to bear by the Legion. Note: my whole theory is based on the assumption that because the IC extends across all the Unforgiven, one can assume that the DA successor chapters simply "chapters on paper" so to speak. I am not trying to belittle the DA successors and I believe that in an organization as large as the First Legion there would be room for individual chapter masters to approach traditions differently leading to what appears to be different chapters to an outside observer. But everyone down to the last battle brother would need to know how closely knit the Unforgiven were. They wouldn't need to know the reasons. From what I've read, it appears that most marines think rather low of the Inquisition and probably wouldn't need more of a reason than:

 

"Because splitting up the legions in the first place was a mistake and we like our Space Wolf and Black Templar brethren will not let our strength be sapped by bureaucrats so that in the Imperium's time of need we can not intervene."

 

As for offending machine spirits, I'd hazard that either with the DA's supposedly large cache of ancient tech they'd have a "machine spirit placater" or due to their relatively untouched size they'd have enough spare suits of armor to outfit 1000 marines in each of their "chapter" colors thus not requiring repainting nearly as often or ever. As when new suits come in (since everybody on the Rock has the same address) they could be divided up such that the legion had a supply of suits for each "chapter".

[Brother Immolator]

I like your reasoning but i believe as things stand such practices are unfeasible.It would make better sense to an outside party to see a triple chapter deployment,than see an entire chapter.

 

Imperial Guardsman Hedrix:The dark angels deployed 1000 marines wow!

Inquisitor Cranix:That seems strange,i would swear they have 500 marines deployed on the conflict of Sagitarius,two subsectors away....

 

Also remember that division was made partly to placate the need for low numbers.Thats why the legions divided.If you start deploying thousands of marines again it would be made clear that such division doesnt exist and one only needs to compare notes on deployment noumbers to find out the truth.

Which OFC leads us to assume the inquisition is unable to do its job since those templars are everywhere at once...but thats another story....

 

Because splitting up the legions in the first place was a mistake and we like our Space Wolf and Black Templar brethren will not let our strength be sapped by bureaucrats so that in the Imperium's time of need we can not intervene

 

I believe that thing is not integrated so much in the troops.

Even Boreas in angels of darkness when interrogated Astelan had some kind of a pro codex altitude when confronted by the 'weak men who divided the legions' argument.Which IMHO leads me to believe that the inner circle and the whole legion theme is kept secret even among certain members of the IC(especially new ones as Boreas).

 

 

So it would make perfect sense that the marines are fighting along side battle brothers of the primogenitor chapter or other brother chapters would be a matter of honor and tradition to them.

 

Do not make assumptions based on the space wolves either.They gave the finger to the codex and that while commendable it is a barbaric and brutal refutal and if the chapter ever finds itself in a weekend state it will pay for its arrogance.

We on the other hand are so paranoid that we have created a web of missinformation and deceit that would put even the deceiver and Tzeentch combined into shame.

 

I stress again:The personas of 40k are not omnipotent like us(in regards to their universe).A marine is just a marine.He follows orders.He is so indoctrinated that the questions that arise to us would never occur to them.

 

Why is an interrogator chaplain is named as such?Why have the marines when breached the defenses of Tharsis been recalled and let the deathwing in?

Why is an interrogator chaplain of the DA been attached to an AoA strike force on Vraks?No rank and file marine dares or even thinks about such matters.

Such is the grip of the inner circle.

[shabbadoo]

I stress again:The personas of 40k are not omnipotent like us(in regards to their universe).A marine is just a marine.He follows orders.He is so indoctrinated that the questions that arise to us would never occur to them.

 

Why is an interrogator chaplain is named as such?Why have the marines when breached the defenses of Tharsis been recalled and let the deathwing in?

Why is an interrogator chaplain of the DA been attached to an AoA strike force on Vraks?No rank and file marine dares or even thinks about such matters.

Such is the grip of the inner circle.

Either that or they do think about these questions, just that the more obvious answers are more easily come by:

 

Why is an interrogator chaplain is named as such? Probably because we hand over all the prisoners to them, and they put those prisoners to "the question". The name is very appropriate. It would seem odd if they weren't called Interrogator-Chaplains.

 

Why have the marines when breached the defenses of Tharsis been recalled and let the Deathwing in? Because marines are a valuable resource, and because the Deathwing are badarses and should be the one assaulting that fortified position, because that its what Terminators are made for. Also, with them teleporting in, that could be risky to both the Deathwing and other units nearby, and the DA are not foolish. That's just common sense.

 

Why is an interrogator chaplain of the DA been attached to an AoA strike force on Vraks? Because the Supreme Grand master told us that the Traitor Legions will be among the enemy on Vraks, and if we catch some, well of course we'll need an Interrogator-Chaplain around to put them to "the question". That just goes without saying. Also, Belial is not around, and Interrogator-Chaplin Belphegor, who is a badarse himself and well versed in the use of his own personal suit of TDA(which he has brought along), has been ordered by Azrael to take command of the 5 squads of Deathwing present in this theater of battle, while Azrael himself commands the rest of the force personally. Nothing strange about a "command structure". Everybody has one.

 

True answers explain everything, and without there needing to be some sort of ulterior line of thinking among the troops. Of course the Inner Circle does what they do for all of the reasons above, just as every Chapter does; they just also do most of those things for other reasons too, and the common DA marine is oblivious to those other reasons. Basically, the common DA marines have no cause to be any more suspicious of anything that their commanders do than would any other marines of any other Chapter be suspicious of their own commanders, and that is why the Inner Circle is awesome. B) B)

[Brother Immolator]

I stress again:The personas of 40k are not omnipotent like us(in regards to their universe).A marine is just a marine.He follows orders.He is so indoctrinated that the questions that arise to us would never occur to them.

 

Why is an interrogator chaplain is named as such?Why have the marines when breached the defenses of Tharsis been recalled and let the deathwing in?

Why is an interrogator chaplain of the DA been attached to an AoA strike force on Vraks?No rank and file marine dares or even thinks about such matters.

Such is the grip of the inner circle.

Either that or they do think about these questions, just that the more obvious answers are more easily come by:

 

Why is an interrogator chaplain is named as such? Probably because we hand over all the prisoners to them, and they put those prisoners to "the question". The name is very appropriate. It would seem odd if they weren't called Interrogator-Chaplains.

 

As if they know that the chapter takes prisoners...

 

Why have the marines when breached the defenses of Tharsis been recalled and let the Deathwing in? Because marines are a valuable resource, and because the Deathwing are badarses and should be the one assaulting that fortified position, because that its what Terminators are made for. Also, with them teleporting in, that could be risky to both the Deathwing and other units nearby, and the DA are not foolish. That's just common sense.

 

When an enemy has surrendered it makes that much sense to send in terminators...

 

Why is an interrogator chaplain of the DA been attached to an AoA strike force on Vraks? Because the Supreme Grand master told us that the Traitor Legions will be among the enemy on Vraks, and if we catch some, well of course we'll need an Interrogator-Chaplain around to put them to "the question". That just goes without saying. Also, Belial is not around, and Interrogator-Chaplin Belphegor, who is a badarse himself and well versed in the use of his own personal suit of TDA(which he has brought along), has been ordered by Azrael to take command of the 5 squads of Deathwing present in this theater of battle, while Azrael himself commands the rest of the force personally. Nothing strange about a "command structure". Everybody has one.

 

As if the rank and file marines know about traitors

 

True answers explain everything, and without there needing to be some sort of ulterior line of thinking among the troops. Of course the Inner Circle does what they do for all of the reasons above, just as every Chapter does; they just also do most of those things for other reasons too, and the common DA marine is oblivious to those other reasons. Basically, the common DA marines have no cause to be any more suspicious of anything that their commanders do than would any other marines of any other Chapter be suspicious of their own commanders, and that is why the Inner Circle is awesome. ;) :)

 

You lost me in there...You know that all those questions simply dont rise because the marines dont know what to ask in the first place because they dont know about the secrets right? :)

[Azoriel]

Ermm, sorry Azoriel, Nestor actually identified himself as Inner Circle. He actually says "I am six hundred and seventeen years old, did you really think that after all this time I would not be a member of the Inner Circle? That's why a veteran like myself is here on this forsaken outpost. To protect the future, to guard the gene-seed." It's on p.268-269.

 

...And you are correct. *boggles* (How did I miss that?) :tu:

[shabbadoo]

You lost me in there...You know that all those questions simply don't rise because the marines don't know what to ask in the first place because they don't know about the secrets right? :P

You apparently didn't follow that, even if such questions did for some reason arise in the minds of the common Dark Angels marine, there are obvious answers to them. Also, these question could arise even if one has no knowledge of any secrets. They are simple operational questions for the most part, with obvious answers, which means they wouldn't even be wondered about at all. Ockam's Razor works very much in the favor of the Inner Circle.

[Brother Immolator]

You lost me in there...You know that all those questions simply don't rise because the marines don't know what to ask in the first place because they don't know about the secrets right? :tu:

You apparently didn't follow that, even if such questions did for some reason arise in the minds of the common Dark Angels marine, there are obvious answers to them. Also, these question could arise even if one has no knowledge of any secrets. They are simple operational questions for the most part, with obvious answers, which means they wouldn't even be wondered about at all. Ockam's Razor works very much in the favor of the Inner Circle.

 

Indeed i didnt follow it at the start,i get it now.Ockams Razor?

[Captain Semper]

The principle that a simple explanation is preferrable to a more complex one.

 

Check it out here

 

Ockam's razor

[Chaplain Lucifer]

The principle that a simple explanation is preferrable to a more complex one.

 

Check it out here

 

Ξυράφι του Οκκαμ :tu:

 

English please? ^_^ B&C default language is English.. as a discussion board it's unfair (and against nettiquette) to post something that not everyone will understand.

[Captain Semper]

The principle that a simple explanation is preferrable to a more complex one.

 

Check it out here

 

Ξυράφι του Οκκαμ ^_^

 

English please? ;) B&C default language is English.. as a discussion board it's unfair (and against nettiquette) to post something that not everyone will understand.

 

Yesssssss. Sorry about that! Fixed it now :tu: (and the link)