Modelling and fluff

[Unforgiven2544]

Good Morning Fellow Gamers,

 

I have recently finished my 3rd Company of Dark Angels (Assembly, still working on the paints), and I am staring at the models that will become the 5th Company. And I am trying to decide if I want to put back banners on my veteran sergeants.

 

They look pretty snazzy, but they can be a bear to transport. I've seen some with, and some without. I was planning on having the 3rd company veteran sergeants being the only ones with the banners as they are the more elite of the "Greenwing" companies. And I had planned on the sergeants just having the crux-terminatus icon from the terminator kits as the veterancy identifier instead of the whole banner. But now I am wavering.

 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v160/SolarinStudio/Warhammer%2040k/Space%20Marines/Dark%20Angels/TabriasMeruchiel.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v160/SolarinStudio/Warhammer%2040k/Space%20Marines/Dark%20Angels/PhaetonXaphan.jpg

 

They look nice... And I never thought I would like them. But after having a few of them done like this; I'm kind of becoming a fan.

 

So, to the forums at large: to banner, or not to banner?

Who uses them? Who refuses to? Why?

 

I hope you will satisfy my curiosity, and illuminate the mysteries of banner usage in Dark Angels fluff.

 

Very respectfully,

--Unforgiven

[Chaplain Lucifer]

I think banners look cool, and if it weren't my ability to get them broken easily I would use them more.

Yours are very well done and add a nice touch to the army. :)

[Xyon]

I dont see the third company as being any more 'elite' than the 4th or 5th battle companies, as far as I'm concerned, they're equal in all respects other than the name, and specific names of people filling the roles. So don't worry about them not being 'elite' enough for back banners. So yeah, if you want to do it, do it, it can look cool.

[Brother Kovash]

I've used banners sparingly while building my various MEQ armies, but the back banners always allow you to add a personal touch to your army. The next time I start to include them, I plan on magnetizing them to make them easier to transport. Otherwise, you begin cutting up your foam transport trays, which always seems to make a mess.

 

 

Also, your banners look great. Are you free handing them, or printing out decals?

[Grimdarkness]

Fluff wise you have to ask why a 7 to 8 foot tall post human would want to add a foot and a half more to his height. Also they have squad tracking built into there armour.

 

 

Game wise the help in locating your units on the table and if you can paint them well they do look good.

 

 

I still don,t like them.

[captain Angel]

I am going to give them to all my sargents, as well as all of the command squad men and the company masters, i love them and they make for a very, "i am the boss, and proud of it" feel. Plus i love doing some free hand

[Unforgiven2544]

Also, your banners look great. Are you free handing them, or printing out decals?

 

They are freehand. The tactical markings on the shoulders (not pictured) are transfers.

[Captain Semper]

I'm with Captain Angel. I've grown to like them, they add character and nothing says 40k more than a foot long banner on a 7 feet tall post-human warrior! But I recall a time I was in the opposite camp...

 

EDIT: and yes, those banners are awesome!

[he_plays_guitar]

I have banners on all my sergeants, captains, HQ's, apothecaries, chaplains, interrogator chaplains, bike sergeants, dreadnoughts, company champions, and librarians. I like them, and I think they look great when they are well done, like yours. I say go all out. It's impressive on the table top, to be sure.

[Brother Immolator]

I believe it has nothing to do with fluff.I dont remember reading anything in the fluff about back banners.Its a tabletop aesthetic mostly.So do what you will.I assemble the models as they come except when i want to convert things.

 

BTW that freehand is topnotch,you to display such paint-work so by all means strap them on.

[Tengo]

I completely suck at freehand, I can't even stay inebetween the lines of detailed banners xD

 

If I could paint back banners aswell as you Unforgiven, there would be one in every squad, it's a great opportunity for fluff and adding a personal touch, celebrate that one sergeant who invoked some lucky as hell dice rolls and knocked the enemy into tomorrow by giving him a name and his own personal heraldry, or perhaps just celebrate the feats and aspects of a particular squad.

 

I like to incorporate my tabletop gaming history and reference certain memorable games into my companies fluff history, I also like to visually emphasis their role, so a primarily anti-tank unit would have have a very 'explosive' banner motif, for instance.

I believe that there are two things that make an army priceless before the game starts, stunning and unique modelling and paintwork, and a personal touch, visible and backed up with stories and fluff.

[Interrogator Stobz]

While I agree banners look cool, and yours are especially cool, I only use back banners for Company Banners.

My reason is the same as some others have mentioned, a SM know where everyone else is, they don't need a visual link. Company Standards are a bit special though so get an exception (god knows why any unit would risk a 10,000 year old relic on a battlefeild but whatever :rolleyes: )

IMHO Banners link to a fantasy/historic battlefield style, On a modern battlefield where snipers and hvy weapons teams will target commanders it is a good idea to not look too different to standard troops. I apply this a little as well as it does work on the tabletop when your opponent gets his target priority wrong due to facing a wall of similar dudes.(obviously for units not individuals)

 

Keep yours, they look great, it's a game of toy soldiers, the bolder they look the better.

 

s

[Jamumools]

I have issues with back banners - good and bad.

 

They look great on the table, especially yours. So that's a definite plus.

 

It seems ridiculous that the sergeant would wear a "shoot me" banner. Remember Saving Private Ryan? "Every time you salute the captain you make him a target for the Germans. So do us a favor, don't do it. Especially when I'm standing next to him. Capisce?" So there's no way a marine would be stupid enough to wear one. But then they wear bright blue or yellow or red armour which is hardly camouflage...

 

But then, if you read the Wheel of Time, the Cairheinin captains wear "cons" which are essentially back banners. If you read up on Robert Jordan he did a LOT of research for those books, so the cons probably have some basis in real history.

 

My last marine army I didn't use them for the Saving Private Ryan reason. But I reckon for my forthcoming Deathwing army I am planning on using them cause they look good. I would personally recommend using whatever you think looks the best.

 

Does that help?

[Grimdarkness]

well it not a back banner it dose add that shoot me feel to the solder in question.

 

Polish Winged Hussar or really early raven wing Picture

[Brother Immolator]

well it not a back banner it dose add that shoot me feel to the solder in question.

 

Polish Winged Hussar or really early raven wing Picture

 

Thats some Calibanite raven-wing pics alright!

 

IMHO Banners link to a fantasy/historic battlefield style, On a modern battlefield where snipers and hvy weapons teams will target commanders it is a good idea to not look too different to standard troops. I apply this a little as well as it does work on the tabletop when your opponent gets his target priority wrong due to facing a wall of similar dudes.(obviously for units not individuals)

 

Keep yours, they look great, it's a game of toy soldiers, the bolder they look the better.

 

s

 

The Japanese carried back-banners in WWII.GW had ripped the style and given it to the old eldar range.

[staxer]

I am an Ultramarine player and most of Sergeants and Characters have Banners, they are so cool. Yours are excellent.

[Kajae]

For me, it's a per-army feel. I used to play Blood Angels, and I hated the thought of them with standards. It didn't seem right, as they would inevitably be trying to get into combat and the standards would probably just get in the way.

 

However, when I started my Dark Angels I thought, "Hell yeah, heraldry!" and set out to give each sergeant a standard to mark what squad he led. Continuing with the per-army basis, I would definitely give them to Ultramarines, as Staxer has said, but wouldn't give them to, say, Iron Hands.

 

My $.02.

[Hemal]

When you think these are 8 ft tall superhuman warriors in armour that often screams "look at me I'm coming to kill you" who fall from the sky in drop pods and scream around with turbine jetpacks, I don't think the officers really care about the fact that they are wearing banners. I reckon a sniper is going to be in trouble no matter who he tries to shoot.

[wacca]

1st let me say well done on your banners, there very well painted. As usual banners fall into the personal opinion field, the debate about banners attracting fire bears some weight but if we followed that through surely the commanders would wear the same armour with no visual difference, this would lead to a very boring army and whats to stop the sniper from hitting the heavy weapon character, also why wear robes wouldn't these get in the way. For my DA army I have tried to give it a kind of knights going to battle feel, the captains/chaplains etc dont wear banners but a standard bearer carries the main standard and extra bearers carry the characters banners (hope that makes sense) i didn't want the banner from drawing the eye away from the paint job on the characters the banners are protected by a Veteran squad (this is for my display and i dont use them in games. my squads do have banners but the 2i/c carry them in the rear rank. my termies all have a different shield design on their left shoulder joint rather than a banner and the sgt have a icon on their back to show who they are.

[Tengo]

You know you've got someone with military experience in the thread when they use the term 2i/c :D

 

As the most honourable brother Immolator mentioned, the Japanese carried back banners, but not just in WWII, they featured prominently in the Japanese Civil war 15c-17c.

 

The purpose of the Japanese Sashimono was the same as the fluff purpose of the 40K back banner, they used them to display personal or clan heraldry, it was a matter of honour and glory. Your battle brothers could see that your clan was made of brave and honourable fighting men, and the accomplishments and feats of you (in the name of your clan, for their glory+honour) could be seen across the battlefield, and the enemy would know which clans were responsible for their defeat.

 

I don't think the Space Marines care much about snipers, they're genetically-engineered super soldiers, much larger than average men and clad in thick power armour, they know no fear and consider death in battle, in the name of the emperor one of the most glorious things possible in their mind. I think they'd rather their enemy know who they are and that they're coming to kill them rather than sneak about trying to remain undetected.

 

also the idea of snipers in fluff, works the same way as it would on the table-top, a sniper sees a whole army of vicious, mighty space marines coming to kill him, he can only get a few shots in before he's detected and the marines come for him, what's he going to use this opportunity on, felling the marines with back banners (which can be retrieved and have no real effect in the battle) or trying to take out the specialised guys with the most dangerous equipment and whoever most looks like the army commander?

 

If anything, marines with back banners would provide a visual distraction from the more important marines to enemy snipers, and a shot killing the sergeant of a tactical squad is better than a shot wounding a company master, or killing a marine with a missile launcher.

also, if every squad featured a back banner, they would not seem special or individual to the enemy, it would just seem that's how those space marines like to roll!

[Grand Master Belial]

I took to using capes and painting them as the banners. Perhaps it was that old TSOALR cartoon where the sergeant got hit in the heraldry ("So cold") because he was the only one in line of sight because of the banner.

 

In any case, I chopped off the banner poles and just kept the ornament on top as a decoration.

[Interrogator Stobz]

I don't think the Space Marines care much about snipers, they're genetically-engineered super soldiers, much larger than average men and clad in thick power armour, they know no fear and consider death in battle, in the name of the emperor one of the most glorious things possible in their mind. I think they'd rather their enemy know who they are and that they're coming to kill them rather than sneak about trying to remain undetected.

 

also the idea of snipers in fluff, works the same way as it would on the table-top, a sniper sees a whole army of vicious, mighty space marines coming to kill him, he can only get a few shots in before he's detected and the marines come for him, what's he going to use this opportunity on, felling the marines with back banners (which can be retrieved and have no real effect in the battle) or trying to take out the specialised guys with the most dangerous equipment and whoever most looks like the army commander?

 

If anything, marines with back banners would provide a visual distraction from the more important marines to enemy snipers, and a shot killing the sergeant of a tactical squad is better than a shot wounding a company master, or killing a marine with a missile launcher.

also, if every squad featured a back banner, they would not seem special or individual to the enemy, it would just seem that's how those space marines like to roll!

 

Yup, it's a game, but a heavy weapons team hiding in cover then being approached by SMs might act smart and 'snipe' the dude with the back banner(the leader?), not sneaking is silly in a ooniverse where the killy/protection ratio still favours the shooter(standard small arms notwithstanding).

 

In 40k where armies are based on points if the SMs have lots of units the enemy will most likely have LOTS of heavy weapons, although the game mechanic allows models to 'hide' from shooting in a squad if that were to change to a more 'realistic' environment then leaders would do well to blend in a little more.

 

In modern shooty warfare, standing out is a great way to get 'special' attention. Leaders, communications operators and heavy weapons teams will be targetted first by a smart firer(assuming the firer has LoS to them). Many a random shooter is called a sniper just because he thinks before he shoots.

 

The Japanese analogy is a bit of a lemon, unless someone has stats to show how many of the honourable leaders were killed due to the banners. I'm sure they eventually learnt that it wasn't a great idea and now operate as a modern army.

 

Banners are for parades, not for combat IMO.

Except where the rule of cool takes presedence------on the tabletop. :D

 

s

[shortysl]

Fluff wise you have to ask why a 7 to 8 foot tall post human would want to add a foot and a half more to his height. Also they have squad tracking built into there armour.

 

For the same reason Astartes don't camouflage themselves; it's more about making sure the enemy knows who is coming for them than it is recognising each other/surviving in battle.

 

I'm in the same boat as the OP when it comes to back banners; i like the idea of having them on my sergeants but it's a nightmare when it comes to transporting them. Whoever mentioned magnetising them seems to be onto a good thing though.

[wacca]

For transport reasons I drilled down into the models back and used a snug fitting brass rod for the banner poles, that way I can remove the banner for transport.

Having been a sniper I can tell you that its easy to spot a commander in battle, even without a banner or saluting, you just watch to see who is giving the hand signals and who every one looks at for a command, as for taking out heavy weapon, every one in my section knew how to use the heavy weapon so i would think that a marine squad fighting for over a century would be the same.

Again I feel it's always going to boil down to what you think looks best on your table top

 

Happy gaming all :D

[Interrogator Stobz]

For transport reasons I drilled down into the models back and used a snug fitting brass rod for the banner poles, that way I can remove the banner for transport.

Having been a sniper I can tell you that its easy to spot a commander in battle, even without a banner or saluting, you just watch to see who is giving the hand signals and who every one looks at for a command, as for taking out heavy weapon, every one in my section knew how to use the heavy weapon so i would think that a marine squad fighting for over a century would be the same.

Again I feel it's always going to boil down to what you think looks best on your table top

 

Happy gaming all ;)

Nice one on the brass rods Wacca, good comments on the IDing of targets too.

 

Everyone in my unit was cross trained too, problem is, if the heavy weapons operator is shot it is because he is in LoS/Beaten zone of the enemy shooter(assuming he hasn't bugged out), next person to grab the gun gets shot too, bugger for them. Luckily we have more than one support weapon in each squad.

 

A bit off topic, because this is about the squad leader and his banner :) And SMs have better armour and guts than most of us mere meat sacks and apply rule of cool wherever they can.

 

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