Morticon Posted December 7, 2011 Author Share Posted December 7, 2011 Game 5 - Capture and Control - Spearhead vs Grey Knights Draigo 1x 10 Paladins (670 points of) not sure all the gear, but 2 hammers and 4 Psycannons at least. 1x 5 Strike Squad 1x 10 Interceptors - 2 Psycannons 3x Psy-fleman dreads. I won the roll off, but due to the fact that I would need to see what the opponent did in order to counter deploy, I allowed him to go first. He placed his objective quite far back into his corner, realising I had speed to pull late contests off. Usually, im super aggressive, and deploy as far up as I can, but this was not the way to play against this list. So, I pulled my objective way back, realising that all I needed on that objective was a 5man RAS squad (flamerback maybe). He then set up with a massively hard castle. He'd broken up the pallies into 2 squads and then had them in front of the dreadies forming a zone of come at your peril. The other guys he put into reserve. He also used his Grand Strategy to make his interceptors scoring. http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb447/Brindleysa/December%202011%20-%20Regionals/IMG_4493.jpg I elected to deploy very little. The dreads, mephy, the DC and one razor. Everything that had a lascannon on it went into reserve, as well as the baal - which would outflank. I laid bait on the right hand side of the table, to try and keep my opponent guessing as to my movements. The biggest problem was, there was a huge open area between the objective and me and on the objective were about 1400points of nonsense. http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb447/Brindleysa/December%202011%20-%20Regionals/IMG_4494.jpg My tactics would be to use the cover and slowly get Mephy and the dreads in position to potentially launch an assault on the wedge. I would use the DC to guard my home plate. In the second turn, nothing of his came in (thanks to Draigo) and oddly, most of mine stayed off too. We traded a few long shots, but I had used the cover fairly well, and got myself some 3++ or had managed to be a few inches out of 48" range. Also, more importantly he was not moving forward with his pally deathstar. Usually, if you have this many points invested in a rock/hammer you need to do something with it, but he was playing a waiting game to see where my forces would be. He also didnt want to commit and spread out to allow me to pick him off. He kept his units off another turn. In my 3rd turn, everything came on. http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb447/Brindleysa/December%202011%20-%20Regionals/IMG_4495.jpg including this awesomeness :lol: http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb447/Brindleysa/December%202011%20-%20Regionals/IMG_4496.jpg I traded a few shots, and immobed one dread, and stunned the other- penned plenty of times, but only ever stunned it - which it ignored in subsequent turns. In his next turn his guys came down. He struck in the 5man, and jumped in the interceptors - i was a bit concerned, since they had that 30"shunt, and a potential run after, meaning they could contest easily. I needed to get to them quickly. I started re-organising. I sent the DC off, and also Mephy to engage the interceptors, and i sent one dread back to protect the objective with the flamerback, and another dread going midfield between his table edge and my objective, essentially covering all my bases in case he shunted anywhere. I kept playing the skim/shoot game and minimised incoming fire. He however did not budge from his area, and kept solidly on the objective. Mephy got another jump and then a good run roll to get into combat (if he had failed, the DC would have cleaned up). He took out 5 or 6 marines. The flamerback down on my plate failed to wound any of the 5man strike squad guys (with the HK missile too) and the dread failed his Fear check thanks to Aegis. The 5man squad was still good to go. In turn 5 I knew it was too late for him to get to me with his pallies, so I moved everything I could forward. The flamerback flamed again - and the dread shot again - and again he passed everything - meaning I would have to break him in combat! The dread duffed a few shots, and he still had 3 marines left! Contesting too!!!! http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb447/Brindleysa/December%202011%20-%20Regionals/IMG_4497.jpg Mephy made light work of the remaining interceptors who without a hammer couldnt wound him. He then made a beeline for the enemy on the other side. Sadly I was in a situation where if the game ended now - i would lose, thanks to that super pesky 5man squad. Thankfully, it didnt. Josh (my opponent) was a bit bummed, cause I had tabled him twice in tournies before when he played his chaos. The dready then made up for his indiscretion and managed to break the 5man remnant squad we traded shots, but the result was pretty much concluded http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb447/Brindleysa/December%202011%20-%20Regionals/IMG_4499.jpg http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb447/Brindleysa/December%202011%20-%20Regionals/IMG_4498.jpg Ended in a draw, with the BA horde moving forward to engage the Pallies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glendor Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 What is your diy chapter called? These batreps are great! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 I was really looking forward to your batrep for the game versus Draigowing. As soon as I saw the objective was Capture and Control I pretty much figured it would end in a draw. If I had been playing the GK army I would have been a bit more careful with the Interceptors. Very well done m8. xD G :sweat: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted December 8, 2011 Author Share Posted December 8, 2011 What is your diy chapter called? These batreps are great! Children of Sanguinius :lol: Got quite a "different" and unpopular story behind 'em. But the more mundane stuff is that the chapter had reformed after taking catastrophic losses and the new colour scheme has all their inner armour painted black in remembrance of the losses they suffered. White in the army is a colour of purity, and as a result a lot of the weapon trims are white. Also, the DC are referred to as the Ascended. And since black is the colour for their losses, the DC take the white instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted December 8, 2011 Author Share Posted December 8, 2011 I was really looking forward to your batrep for the game versus Draigowing. As soon as I saw the objective was Capture and Control I pretty much figured it would end in a draw. If I had been playing the GK army I would have been a bit more careful with the Interceptors. Very well done m8. xD G :lol: Yeah man. Usually i will never play for a draw, but this guy left me little choice. It was his terms or nothing (if i wanted to challenge for the win). And I dont go out of my way to fight on my opponents terms :P I think if he had moved completely away from mephy, he would have had 1 more turn away from Meph, which would have been enough to shunt towards the objective, and run, and then hopefully just stick out the dread counter charge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blitzkrieg861 Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Nice report, Morti. I kinda feel bad for you though about the Grey Knights game... seems like a super boring game. I mean, did the other guy even move any of his models? It looks like he just sat on his objective all game hoping you wouldn't kill him... That's a pretty lame sauce tactic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codicer_Cahill Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Mort, thanks for the great batrep and pics! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted December 8, 2011 Author Share Posted December 8, 2011 Nice report, Morti. I kinda feel bad for you though about the Grey Knights game... seems like a super boring game. I mean, did the other guy even move any of his models? It looks like he just sat on his objective all game hoping you wouldn't kill him... That's a pretty lame sauce tactic. Ahoy, yeh. I don't mind too much. It wound up being an overly tactical game rather than a slog fest. The opponent knew how fast I was so he had 2 options after he had deployed his objective. One was to combat squad strike his pallies down on his objective and on my objective and then send in the support from the other 15 plebs. However hed risk having a lot of vehicles potentially contesting his objective if i could take out the dreads and move up slowly. So, it was a "play it safe" game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted December 8, 2011 Author Share Posted December 8, 2011 Final Game (6) Secure Control - 5 Objectives - Spearhead vs Tyranids Swarmlord 3 Tyrant Guard Doom Pod 6 Tyranid Warriors 12 Stealers 11 Stealers Trygon Prime - regen. 2 Carnifexs - Scything Talons. ***pics arent uploadin- will have to post them later I wasn't particularly fussed with this list. The Swarmy would be a threat potentially, but I had enough shooting to keep things moving in my favour. I gave him first turn and we deployed. He kept his Carnies off into reserve, as with the stealers and the Trygon. This meant I would have a full turn of shooting at his big squad. In one turn his tyrant guard were all dead, even with 4+ cover saves. http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb447/Brindleysa/December%202011%20-%20Regionals/IMG_4500.jpg His second turn, not a lot came on, except doom, and one stealer squad. The doom failed to do anything to Mephy and the stealers advanced I continued shooting up the Swarmy and took him down a few more wounds. The one dread made light work of the doom, and I managed to fear the stealers back a bit. In the third turn, the swarmy made a line for one of my tanks, while trygon, carnies and stealers came out. The other stealers movement was limited thanks to them only regrouping now. They did manage to charge and take out the DC rhino though, but no hassles. Mephy and a libby dread charged the Trygon Prime - and whupped it. Mephy took 3 wounds in the process though, since he failed to kill it, but the dready cleaned up. http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb447/Brindleysa/December%202011%20-%20Regionals/IMG_4501.jpg The carnies charged in after. Mephy made light work of one, and then the dready countered to take out another. http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb447/Brindleysa/December%202011%20-%20Regionals/IMG_4502.jpg The game ended 5th turn I think, with him having 3 or 4 stealers on one contested objective, his 4 warriors on another contested objective, and me claiming the other 3. http://i1206.photobucket.com/albums/bb447/Brindleysa/December%202011%20-%20Regionals/IMG_4503.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted December 9, 2011 Author Share Posted December 9, 2011 Final results: 1st - BA - 5-0-1 :P 2nd - Orks 3rd - Grey knights 4th - Chaos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOBMAKENZIE Posted December 9, 2011 Share Posted December 9, 2011 :\/ I am disappointed in your draw to grey knights. Good reports Morts, did you notice a trend to the issues for your opponents (as in was it the list specifically they had some trouble with) or a more general (erm..not lack of aptitude..) matter of you playing into the situation right and them having some trouble adapting to your tactics? (I hope that made sense!) From my read through I interpreted it to be mostly the second, it sounded like you quite aptly played into the board, strengths of your army and weakness of your opponents. More specifically with the grey knights do you think his running of the paladins was an issue for him in the game or more of a benefit? It sounds as though he used them fairly poorly on first glance and yet I suspect if he had not had the paladins you might have pushed a touch more aggressively getting into the fights more directly and potentially increasing the casualties you took. Thoughts on my stream of consciousness there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted December 9, 2011 Author Share Posted December 9, 2011 :\/ I am disappointed in your draw to grey knights. Good reports Morts, did you notice a trend to the issues for your opponents (as in was it the list specifically they had some trouble with) or a more general (erm..not lack of aptitude..) matter of you playing into the situation right and them having some trouble adapting to your tactics? (I hope that made sense!) From my read through I interpreted it to be mostly the second, it sounded like you quite aptly played into the board, strengths of your army and weakness of your opponents. More specifically with the grey knights do you think his running of the paladins was an issue for him in the game or more of a benefit? It sounds as though he used them fairly poorly on first glance and yet I suspect if he had not had the paladins you might have pushed a touch more aggressively getting into the fights more directly and potentially increasing the casualties you took. Thoughts on my stream of consciousness there? Bob- I found myself playing for the draw which is a horrible way to go into a game :( As for the main question, its a great question so forgive me if the answer goes into too much depth. SA's competitive gaming community generally is not as wiley as the US gaming community. Or more specifically lack the number of wiley opponents. They are apt in their generalship, and their lists are generally solid (for the most part - nids and crons from this tourney excluded), but are rarely lean mean killing machines. When I play Lemartes from Germany (the guy, not the model), it's like im playing a doppleganger. Every single thing I hope he doesn't do, he does. And everything I am planning to do, he will attempt to counter, so it really boils down to the dice in games like that. Exact same goes with Gaganius and then Koyote to a degree - though Koyote is a lot more cautious than I am. SO, to make a long answer shorter, id say its a combination of my opponents being above average at both aspects, but not necessarily great at either. SA for some reason doesn't seem to (re)produce the standard net lists you see everywhere. Joburg is a little different from Cape Town, as noted, and there are a few more netlists up that side of the world. The closest thing to a successful netlist (in the broad sense) was the 2010 nationals winner which fielded a Khan list. People still generally play what they find aesthetically appealing as well as effective within their local meta. Its also the main reason so many of the top gamers have failed to beat Luca, the current SA number 1. They just refuse to adapt their lists to beat his and they don't play hardcore "power" lists. You see some similar things, but all of the top players rock very different types of list from what you'd see in the US meta. Competitively where we will have 20% of our guys exceptionally good in tournies, the tournies I've been to in the States (and UK) will have say 70% of the guys exceptionally good, and then so much of it comes down to list vs. list and luck vs. luck.. It may seem like a bit of an outrageous statement to make, but I believe that at very very high level, generalship is not the equaliser we believe it to be. I believe more and more, that at high level, generalship is usually one of the first things to be discounted. Generalship matters in your first few games, but I believe if you play a "perfect game" (ie: one with no mistakes) and your opponent plays a "perfect game", then your result will be determined by the list matchup and the luck you have. With the Greyknight guy, I think he was just gunshy. Josh had been tabled by me twice in tournies before and wanted to take no chances whatsoever. I think he should have been a lot more aggressive. But, as said, if he had been aggressive in moving his pallies forward, theres a good chance he would have played into my hands, allowing me to focus fire on them, and then counter charge with dreads potentially removing a pally squad, and then making it easier to contest. I think if he had gotten a higher roll on grand strategy, he may have made a dread scoring too and allowed himself the leeway. In short, he played safe- not smart or wiley. There was less to go wrong for him with his set of tactics. If he didnt have the pallies, I would have been up in his grill quick quick. Not to discount the lad, had it ended on turn 5, he would have won! *** As a quick addendum to this post the top ranked players' armies in SA at the moment are: 1. IG 2. BA (mine ^_^) 3. DE 4. Chaos/GK (Lash/Abaddon chaos and Draigowing GK) 5. Daemons - Fiend spam 6. GK 7. GK 8. IG 9. Chaos 10. SW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted December 10, 2011 Author Share Posted December 10, 2011 nid pics added* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donnyb Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 great list, and one I am very keen to build. I had to settle on DOA while overseas but set on mech-phiston list now that I'm back home. Only thing, I ran it through armybuilder and it keeps coming up 57pts over! Meph + 2 Libby dreads - 600 3 RAS melta/raz - 183*3 - 549 RAS melta/ HF raz - 143 Death comp, PF, Rhino - 235 Baal, HB - 145 Pred, AC, LC - 135 Total = 1807 O_o Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 donny, you put in 6 man assault squads, so each of the 4 assault squads is over by 18 points. Army Builder has an issue that when you add a meltagunner it does not subtract a regular guy, you just end up with 6 guys and have to manually subtract the one guy. 5 RAS + meltagun + upgraded razorack is 165. 5 RAS + flamer + heavy flamer razorback is 125 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donnyb Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 donny, you put in 6 man assault squads, so each of the 4 assault squads is over by 18 points. Army Builder has an issue that when you add a meltagunner it does not subtract a regular guy, you just end up with 6 guys and have to manually subtract the one guy. 5 RAS + meltagun + upgraded razorack is 165. 5 RAS + flamer + heavy flamer razorback is 125 Ah thanks for that, I didn't end up finding the error. I knew it had to be armybuilder though! I'll have to redo my 2000 point list knowing that too, 90 free points! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOBMAKENZIE Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 I took some time to contemplate your response before responding myself. There was quite a lot to consider so I hope you didnt take that as inattentiveness. For the most part because of the nature of my questions I dont think there was much I could question (In that I dont live in Cape Town and thus have very little experience with the local trends :D Though it was interesting to hear about). I did however get caught up on this statement.... Competitively where we will have 20% of our guys exceptionally good in tournies, the tournies I've been to in the States (and UK) will have say 70% of the guys exceptionally good, and then so much of it comes down to list vs. list and luck vs. luck.. It may seem like a bit of an outrageous statement to make, but I believe that at very very high level, generalship is not the equaliser we believe it to be. I believe more and more, that at high level, generalship is usually one of the first things to be discounted. Generalship matters in your first few games, but I believe if you play a "perfect game" (ie: one with no mistakes) and your opponent plays a "perfect game", then your result will be determined by the list matchup and the luck you have. Two things in particular got me about this both of which being things you excluded mentioning (although it may have been unintentional). How much do you believe mission/deployment (this is one thing to me) and terrain play into the results of games? Do you just roll those things in with other categories? In my own experience I feel as though terrain effects my games even beyond how I general an army, though I have rarely if ever felt that Terrain had a quantifiable effect in the outcome of a game. Similarly there are certain boards or opponents where I wish for certain in certain missions (or I suppose vice versa) to make the situation a touch easier. I have trouble determining how much of this is just the effect on how I play and how much it is an independent factor. Otherwise I agree quite completely with your position that Generalship means less as play ability increases on both sides. P.S. I can't help but notice you didnt include me in the list of Gag, Koyote and Lem :3 (I know I dont really consider myself in that list either way :lol:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted December 12, 2011 Author Share Posted December 12, 2011 Two things in particular got me about this both of which being things you excluded mentioning (although it may have been unintentional). How much do you believe mission/deployment (this is one thing to me) and terrain play into the results of games? Do you just roll those things in with other categories? In my own experience I feel as though terrain effects my games even beyond how I general an army, though I have rarely if ever felt that Terrain had a quantifiable effect in the outcome of a game. Similarly there are certain boards or opponents where I wish for certain in certain missions (or I suppose vice versa) to make the situation a touch easier. I have trouble determining how much of this is just the effect on how I play and how much it is an independent factor. Otherwise I agree quite completely with your position that Generalship means less as play ability increases on both sides. P.S. I can't help but notice you didnt include me in the list of Gag, Koyote and Lem :3 (I know I dont really consider myself in that list either way ;)) Hahahha :D Youre solid solid Bob! Just not Gagan/Lem/Koyote level :P And awesome questions. Mission is a HUGE factor when it comes to list vs. list matchup. As an example certain builds (shooty alpha-strike lists) do wonderfully with Pitched where they'll struggle in DoW. If I play IG for example, I pray to play them DoW. That I put down to the "luck" aspect though. Terrain is an even bigger decider, as the most recent NOVA open has proved. From the snippets ive picked up, they have gone above and beyond the 25% cover rule and also ensured that there is at least one big piece of LOS blocking terrain. Its also generated a lot of praise from what ive seen. Same goes here. In Cape Town and Joburg, our meta is different not only because of players, but also because of terrain. The terrain the guys played in last years nationals was mental (ie: SO much) - as a result the lists that did well were quite different and varied from before. The Zerker chaos game from this thread was a complete cake-walk BECAUSE of that piece of terrain. It belongs to the club that hosts the tournies, and it is well known by players, cause it greatly influences how the games are played. Another example you can find is the Space Wolf game in the 2011 nationals (in my sig link below). Completely changed by the terrain. Good players will know how to work around the terrain and use to their advantage, but if the table has an "imbalance" in the sense that only one side has that type/size terrain, then the one that gets that piece can work it to their advantage. Knowing the terrain and how to use it is a huge part of the generalship. In some objective missions, if i spot a terrain piece like that and I know the opponent would want that piece, I will put as many objectives away from that, or on the opposite side as I possibly can, to try get the opponent to choose the other side. If he does, I get the terrain piece that I can use as the staging of my assault, or prevent his oblits/fangs etc from hunkering down in, and being an aggressive army, im going off to get the objectives anyway! If he doesn't I get the side that has more objectives, and ill try work around that. So, yeh..for me Terrain is a factor of both luck and generalship, and missions are a factor of luck. Both of which are very important to the outcome of the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOBMAKENZIE Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 Hahahha ;) Youre solid solid Bob! Just not Gagan/Lem/Koyote level :P "yet" I've still got time to catch up to the likes of you adults old men :D Good players will know how to work around the terrain and use to their advantage, but if the table has an "imbalance" in the sense that only one side has that type/size terrain, then the one that gets that piece can work it to their advantage. Knowing the terrain and how to use it is a huge part of the generalship. In some objective missions, if i spot a terrain piece like that and I know the opponent would want that piece, I will put as many objectives away from that, or on the opposite side as I possibly can, to try get the opponent to choose the other side. that is a super cool idea... More thought on this to be developed. Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions :3 I suppose I just havent been getting as many games in as I wish I would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demoulius Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 ack, pictures! guess the games did happen :( grats on the enjoyable games m8! not much of a tourney player myself but glad to see at least one of our memberso n the board is showing the rest of the world how its done :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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