Melee vs. walkers - can you consolidate?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Only thing I can find is you cannot make a consolidation move after you wreck or destroy a vehicle? Is this also the case versus walkers too?

 

G :)

[Grey Mage]

I would say yes. They are said to 'fight as infantry', and can themselves make consolidations and sweeping advances.

[JamesI]

The rules for no consolidating after wrecking a vehicle is for vehicles without weapon skill. So, walkers have WS so you get a consolidation.

[mattdouthat]

The problem is that no where does it say you may make a consolidation against them. And in vehicle section does not say anything about only not getting it against vehicles with no WS. Only exceptions to the vehicle combat rules are one specifically listed under Walkers. While I agree it should be that way I know that is not how GW works. Unless it specifically states you get consolidation against them you can't. We have to go by exactly what it says unless it gets FAQed which it hasn't that I could find. I have had this happen to my Thunderwolves numerous times in tournaments after wrecking a Dreadnought be stuck standing in a circle surrounding it and get pie plates dropped on them

[Hiro_Protagonist]

I'd say that you CAN consolidate after wrecking a walker.

 

In combat walkers fight like infantry...they can be locked in combat, and they get to consolidate if they wipe out the enemy.

[Saiisil]

The problem is that no where does it say you may make a consolidation against them. And in vehicle section does not say anything about only not getting it against vehicles with no WS. Only exceptions to the vehicle combat rules are one specifically listed under Walkers. While I agree it should be that way I know that is not how GW works. Unless it specifically states you get consolidation against them you can't. We have to go by exactly what it says unless it gets FAQed which it hasn't that I could find. I have had this happen to my Thunderwolves numerous times in tournaments after wrecking a Dreadnought be stuck standing in a circle surrounding it and get pie plates dropped on them

 

 

I have a question for you, are walkers treated like Infantry for purposes of assault? if yes they consolidation with and against are specifically allowed under the walkers rules, if not then there are alot of things that can be argued for and against regarding walkers.

[dswanick]

The problem is that no where does it say you may make a consolidation against them. And in vehicle section does not say anything about only not getting it against vehicles with no WS. Only exceptions to the vehicle combat rules are one specifically listed under Walkers. While I agree it should be that way I know that is not how GW works. Unless it specifically states you get consolidation against them you can't. We have to go by exactly what it says unless it gets FAQed which it hasn't that I could find. I have had this happen to my Thunderwolves numerous times in tournaments after wrecking a Dreadnought be stuck standing in a circle surrounding it and get pie plates dropped on them

Actually, no. The rulebook gives you the rules for Consolidation and for Walkers Consolidating, here:

CONSOLIDATION

At the end of a combat, if a unit's opponents are all either destroyed or falling back, so that the victorious unit is no longer locked in combat with any enemy, they may consolidate. This means that they may move...

WALKERS AND ASSAULTS

In close combat, walkers fight like infantry models.

This part is irrelevant because it is overruled by the above bit about Walkers fighting like normal Infantry.

Combat results

Combats against vehicles are very different from those among other unit types. For a start, whilst vehicles can be assaulted, they cannot be locked in combat. At the conclusion of a round of close combat against a vehicle there is no combat result, and so there are no sweeping advances, no pile-in and no consolidation moves. The vehicle and the enemy remain where they are and are free to simply move away in future turns.

If that were not the case, Walkers would not be limited to assaulting the unit at which they fired, would not be locked in combat, and wouldn't have specific wording describing how they interact with Combat Resolution rules for Infantry. It is the lack of a Combat Resolution for non-Walker Vehicles which prevents the Consolidation - by RAW.

[mattdouthat]

True but the fact that they specifically clarify that walkers get a consolidate but do not clarify you get one against them is the issue I have seen. I agree you should get one but have had it ruled against me the other way on more than one occasion. The problem I have seen is the Walker is still a vehicle even though a strange one. Also if it counted as infantry completely in assault could not use krak grenades or melta bombs on it since can only be used on vehicles. but they specifically clarify this along with the walker being able to consolidate. So while it fights as infantry it still is a vehicle thus causing the issue of people interpreting it differently. If it counted as infantry in all ways in combat would be no question but it follows some vehicle rules and some infantry rules. I have learned along time ago that what seems reasonable does not necessarily matter when it comes to GW. It does not say treat a walker as Infantry in assault it just says he fights like infantry in assault which could be taken to mean he only attacks like infantry. I personal would love to be able to consolidate my Thunderwolves after killing Dreadnoughts

[dswanick]

Also if it counted as infantry completely in assault could not use krak grenades or melta bombs on it since can only be used on vehicles. but they specifically clarify this along with the walker being able to consolidate. So while it fights as infantry it still is a vehicle thus causing the issue of people interpreting it differently. If it counted as infantry in all ways in combat would be no question but it follows some vehicle rules and some infantry rules. I have learned along time ago that what seems reasonable does not necessarily matter when it comes to GW. It does not say treat a walker as Infantry in assault it just says he fights like infantry in assault which could be taken to mean he only attacks like infantry. I personal would love to be able to consolidate my Thunderwolves after killing Dreadnoughts

The reason you can use Krak grenades on a Walker is because Walkers fight Close Combat as Infantry (thus you could not use Krak Grenades), but the Walker rules specifically make an exception fo it.

Walkers are vehicles (Infantry can not Consolidate after destroying a vehicle, because the is no Combat Resolution step), but Walkers specifically allow it. It has to be so because the General Infantry rules don't make the exception for Walkers - it's found here in the Walkers section. But this is a function of the rules for Infantry not Walkers.

Being Vehicles, Walkers can not Consolidate (per the VEHICLES AND ASSAULTS section), except that Walkers have a specific rule telling you they fight like Infantry, not like Vehicles (and thus you don't even refer to the section). So it is specifically allowed by the RAW just as Infantry are allowed to Consolidate.

The list you refer to("but they specifically clarify this along with the walker being able to consolidate") is an expansion of the Consolidation rules describing how Consolidation interacts with Vehicle Stunned and Vehicle Shaken Vehicle Damage Table results. It is not a list of allowed operations and you are taking it out of context and mis-interpreting it if you claim that.

[nicolo]

on page 72 of the main rulebook under the heading walkers "walkers are a very unusual type of vehicle.....Because of this they use some of the rules for normal infantry." On page 73 under Walkers and Assaults: "Walkers assault like infantry models, meaning that they make assault moves and can be locked in combat with enemy units." "In close combat, walkers fight like infantry models." Against infantry models you are allowed to make a consolidation move. The rules are very specific here, saying that they do not follow the rules for vehicles in combat, but rather here they follow the rules for infantry. "walkers make sweeping advances, pile-in moves and consolidations unless they are stunned or immobilized." under squadrons of walkers it continues to re-inforce this "squadrons of walkers follow all normal rules for vehicle squadrons, except in assaults. they assault and react to being assaulted in the same way as units of infantry..." While vehicles cannot be locked in combat, consolidated from,walkers specifically do not fight like vehicles, they fight like infantry.

It says the fight like infantry. Now when a codex says for example "model arrives like as a deep strike" do you still follow all rules governing deep striking? I have to say yes you do, like equals is here for the purposes and time dictated. As such, they are considered as infantry during that combat and as such follow the guidlines in the main rulebook on page 40 for the rules for consolidation. The rules for consolidation say "...unit is no longer locked in combat with any enemy, they may consolidate"

[greatcrusade08]

ive had this issue arise in my own games and i simply point out that the vehicle rules only cover walkers for the situations that the walker rules dont.

walker is a sub type its own rules take precedence over the general vehcile rules.

 

the kicker is that dreads/walkers figh like infantry, if they can be locked then you can get a consolidation move under the BRB definition of the rule.

CONSOLIDATION

At the end of a combat, if a unit's opponents are all either destroyed or falling back, so that the victorious unit is no longer locked in combat with any enemy, they may consolidate. This means that they may move...

 

it doesnt need to state that a walker may consolidate becase its already covered under the "fights like infantry" rule.

 

otherwise i could say that a dread cannot be locked in combat becuase its rules dont say so..

see where im going?

[mattdouthat]

I believe you do get to consolidate. I think the clarification under Walkers " Walkers make sweeping advances, pile-in moves and consolidation moves, unless they are stunned or immobilized." is only to show when they can't do it not to tell you they can do it. Thus it is only clarifying that stunned and immobile Walkers lose the ability to do it.

[Jacinda]

The rules for no consolidating after wrecking a vehicle is for vehicles without weapon skill. So, walkers have WS so you get a consolidation.

Close. Actually ...

 

pg 63: "At the conclusion of a round of close combat against a vehicle there is no combat result, and so there are no sweeping advances, no pile-in and no consolidation moves."

 

It is not the WS but the combat result which determines if there is a consolidation move. And under the walker rules, there are combat results with every roll on the damage table counting as one wound. If there is a combat result, there is a consolidation move unless prohibited by some other rule. Just being a vehicle is no enough to disallow it. It must be a vehicle that does not count for combat results. Granted that is everything but walkers, but since walkers do count for combat results they are not included in the vehicle rules concerning consolidation among other things.