Astral Claws, need help with the painting!

[alex567]

Hey, Alex here, This kind of thinking is HERESY and the spess mahreens wont be happy. We will mount up in our MEWTAL BAWKSES. and drive closer to hit you with our sword's, when the Emperor gives us heretics... BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!

[Subtle Discord]

Sorry, but all I could think of was this when I saw the last few posts;

 

Man in Black: All right. Where is the poison? The battle of wits has begun. It ends when you decide and we both drink, and find out who is right... and who is dead.

Vizzini: But it's so simple. All I have to do is divine from what I know of you: are you the sort of man who would put the poison into his own goblet or his enemy's? Now, a clever man would put the poison into his own goblet, because he would know that only a great fool would reach for what he was given. I am not a great fool, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But you must have known I was not a great fool, you would have counted on it, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.

Man in Black: You've made your decision then?

Vizzini: Not remotely. Because iocane comes from Australia, as everyone knows, and Australia is entirely peopled with criminals, and criminals are used to having people not trust them, as you are not trusted by me, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you.

Man in Black: Truly, you have a dizzying intellect.

Vizzini: Wait till I get going! Now, where was I?

Man in Black: Australia.

Vizzini: Yes, Australia. And you must have suspected I would have known the powder's origin, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.

Man in Black: You're just stalling now.

Vizzini: You'd like to think that, wouldn't you? You've beaten my giant, which means you're exceptionally strong, so you could've put the poison in your own goblet, trusting on your strength to save you, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But, you've also bested my Spaniard, which means you must have studied, and in studying you must have learned that man is mortal, so you would have put the poison as far from yourself as possible, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.

Man in Black: You're trying to trick me into giving away something. It won't work.

Vizzini: IT HAS WORKED! YOU'VE GIVEN EVERYTHING AWAY! I KNOW WHERE THE POISON IS!

Man in Black: Then make your choice...

 

Now, on to the topic. Do you work for GW? If not, as a paying customer, you can use anything you like in their store, as long as you do it with some tact. (Insert bottle swapping idea here) Maybe you can teach them that some of their product leaves a little to be desired. The truth hurts sometimes.

 

I bring this up specifically because I just started using Vallejo metallic paints (After seeing some information linked from here at B&C) and I have to say; They blend much nicer than GW metallic paints. I'm working with Vallejo Model Colour 'Gold', 'Old Gold', 'Brass', 'Silver' and 'Natural Steel', and I like them much more than GWs metallics for blending.

 

I might think that GW has some of their priorities a little off the mark, but I don't 'hate' them. However, if there's a product out there that is better than what they have on offer, I'd be crazy to ignore it based on 'brand loyalty'. It's not personal, it just makes sense.

[alex567]

Hey, Alex here, well it's just my local store is a one man store, and him and me are friends so I don't realy wanna pee him of or decieve him (I have a very high moral conciouce ness), also now that I look at it I do also have a major games workshop loyalty issue, but thats more about me being lazy than sticking to a code. Also how does that story end because dont think if heard of it before? I may buy some of these "super paints" as Im dubbing them, any tips on their use? such as how much watering down you would recomend, layers for a nice silver, also with the astral claws im thinkin of going for a boltgun metal finish, for instance not actualy boltgun metal but a nice darkish silver, but not boltgun+ badab black finish, boltgun finish, so possibly using boltgun metal as my middle colour? so adding black for a base and white for a highlight? good bad? should be shot for heresy? should be praised for amaising-ness?

[Subtle Discord]

Well said. I have the utmost respect for any business trying to honestly (key word) make their way in today's economy. I completely advocate supporting local businesses and will always try to buy locally to support them if the mark-up isn't too extreme. That is why I buy modeling supplies from my local hobby store before buying online. Do they cost a bit more? Yes, but they are my actual neighbors who deserve my support, so I do. But, if I can find something at a large discount and/or that is not offered at my local store and/or is vastly superior in quality, I have to choose what benefits me in the end.

 

Don't want to deceive? Than just be honest and have a discreet conversation and ask if it's ok to use the odd thing from outside the store. You might even plant the seed for products that your local shop can start carrying, if it's not a actual GW franchise. In which case they have a stock that is not 'negotiable', but maybe an idea can be given to a manager to pass on to upper management for new/other product ideas. (Trust me from personal experience, this happens) I use, and extol, the virtues of non-GW products all the time when I hang out at the local GW shop. But, I'm just not obnoxious about it, so it's ok. Tact is a good thing, and a good store manager will see that a knowledgeable hobbyist who brings energy and creativity to the store is good for business, even if they use some things from outside the store.

 

Ok, on to painting...

 

As I said in my previous ramblings, I start very bright and then let my washes 'dim' things down. And, you're gonna love this... You want a Boltgun-ish metallic? That's what I get all the time by doing this...

 

Start with Mithril Silver base painted over everything you want Silver. Over this you want to do an overall wash of 'dark' Black Wash. Just as I said/showed in my WIP thread about the 'dark' Brown Wash I use for Gold, you'll need to mix your own. It all depends on how strong you want, but you'll want to add 5+ drops of Black Ink to a full bottle of Badab Black Wash. As always, testing is key to getting the exact level that you want. I always forget just how much I add, but just 'get close' to a sample of the old wash I'm trying to replace, through trial-and-error. Then I mix the left-over wash into the newly mixed bottle.

 

Straight Badab Black Wash is rather weak from the bottle, but that's a good thing when you want a more subtle effect and/or if you're going to do many layers. Using a mixed 'dark' Black Wash will make the wash stronger, darkening the Silver to a Boltgun Metal level in one or two layers, depending on how strong it is. As I said, if you start with a thin layer to begin the effect, then add a second layer to deepen it, you can have more control.

 

Note: Just had an idea I wanted to toss in - Consider doing a darker wash on the Powered Armour Silver and a lighter wash on the weapons and gear. It would make the armour look more battle worn and tarnished with the weapons being well maintained. Just a thought.

 

Once it's 'washed down' to a Boltgun Metal level (Read: the lighter areas where the wash is thinnest are close to Boltgun Metal colour) you can use Boltgun Metal to just clean things up and smooth the effect. Just used thinned down boltgun on the 'bright' places, and clean up any roughness and/or 'splochy-ness'. As before/always use the clean damp brush to smooth and drag edges of the paint to blend.

 

Something that is key - Many times you need to drag paint one way, and then push it back a tiny bit to get a nice blend. Practice will show what I mean.

 

How thin should the Boltgun Silver be? That's a good question. As a general rule of thumb for all blending, you want the paint 'milk-like'. That's the best way to describe it. It's usually thin like water, but still just 'strong' enough to have solid colour. When you drag some paint on the pallet you want it to be noticeably thin. With metallic paints that means it can be quite 'sparkly' since the ground up aluminum-flake pigment is 'spread out' in the thinned paint.

 

Now here's the place where I like Vallejo metallic paints over GW's. (Literally, over the last few days I bought some Vallejo metallics, and I really like them.) The aluminum-flakes that make the metallics... errr... metallic, are finer than GW paints. Therefore they make a nicer blend with less effort.

 

No matter which brand paint you use, the technique is an extension of blending washes. Place some thinned paint where you want it, and use a clean damp brush to drag the edges to blend them out. Layering is key. Sometimes you have to be happy with the first layer just starting the clean-up effect, and a second (maybe third, fourth, or more...) layer smoothing out the area. Most times I place the paint, drag out the edge a little past where I want it, and then push it back a bit and lift the brush. This will leave a damp spot where the paint can 'spread' and produce a nice blend. As always, practice will show you what I mean.

 

Thinned metallic s of any brand will make a bit of a 'sparkly' effect when you try to blend. As I said before, a 'unifying' wash that is very thin and selective will merge this blending with the background. That's the best way I've found to 'dull' the sparkles.

 

Keep doing this 'back-and-forth' in larger areas, but odds are on most things once you - base paint, wash, clean up, selective wash - you'll be at a point where you want to start highlights.

[Lorenzen]

the bottle swapping arguement isnt a matter of lying to the guy running the store, if you dont mention the brand of paint in the bottles, and he asks you can say "its vallejo stuff, but i know gw would frown on me essentially advertising their use in your store, so for brand recognition anyone coming in will assume gw paints because gw pots."

 

i dont use gw brushes or gw paints and havent had much issue, but that may just be my local shop. if they dont sell a product that does what you need (say brass rod for example for conversions) they cant stop you using it as long as there is no health and safety violation anyway.

 

one thing i think needs to be brought up before we continue down the path of why vallejo stuff is made of win though.

 

they have several different types of metallic paint on offer. the standard VMC stuff like natural steel, oily steel and silver.. which are great when used with brushes. for that dark metallic look mix black with oily steel then gradually blend it up to pure oily steel with a fine silver highlight.

 

but.. where vallejo really shines are their model AIR metallics.. these have superfine metallic flakes and are pre thinned (you can thin them further but theyre good as is) these things are amazing, you wont get the sparkly effect you just get pure win in a bottle.. theyre good for airbrushing (as the name implies) and good for brushing too.. they are very bright because of how small the metallic flakes are.

 

gold wise.. vallejo liquid gold (old gold) is amazing.. just dont use your good brushes with it or through an airbrush.. its a killer to clean up because its alcohol based.. but still awesome.

 

http://www.youtube.com/user/awesomepaintjo...u/4/MpEugvg5bRU

 

example of model air colou steel and "gun" (what a name) and why theyre awesome.

[alex567]

Hey, Alex here, I was having alook through www.acrylicosvallejo.com and decided to have alook at the mediums they have, what would you say about

Metallic Medium #70.470 any good or bad? Also would any one recoomend getting a medium? for a dulled down metal would a matt medium be better?

[Subtle Discord]

The Metallic Medium product is used to make any colour metallic. Want Blue/Red/Green metallic? Mix in some of that, and it will do it with less change too the colour than adding Silver, since it's all metallic flake with no pigment added. Even Silver has a Grey-White pigment in it to make it Silver. I've never actually used it, so I can't say just how good it is.

 

The the other Mediums are basically acrylic paint without any pigment added. Those are Vallejo's brand of 'acrylic thinner' that I mentioned before. Thinning with water (with or without a Flow Aid product) is fine, and you'll still do it all the time. But, mediums will thin the paint while keeping its bonding ability strong. With medium, you're not just watering down the paint, you're adding more liquid acrylic plastic to it. That's a good thing. Are mediums essential to getting nice blends and layers? No, not at all, but they don't hurt at all.

 

As for the 'shine level', I would lean towards Matte for painting. I like a nice matte surface to paint and blend on. The paint bonds better to a matte surface, and as you work it won't be as prone to 'pull away' as it would on a Satin or Gloss finish. If you want a gloss or satin finish in the end, just finish with a satin or gloss varnish.

 

@ Lorenzen - Thanks for the added information. I wasn't sure if I wanted/needed some of the 'Air' paints, but I can see that I might just need a few bottles. Even if I'm not going to be using an airbrush for a while, the benefits seem worth it. Great video as well. It shows just how an airbrush works really well along side 'traditional' brush painting.

[Lorenzen]

i cant take credit for the video its lester bursleys job to do that.. but i can recommend the vma range based on personal experiences with essentially every type of "silver" metallic paint going.

 

airbrushing isnt a necessity to getting good results, but my god does it speed things up.. i honestly dont think i could go back to not owning one after having used one so much.. its like being introduced to squash.. sure water does just fine, but id much rather have a glass of something that has a taste.

 

im also a big advocate of gloss varnish on metallics.. if you want them to really look spiffy nothing can beat it, but for a duller finish & tarnished metals its all about very light satin coats.

 

in terms of metallic medium, its a really nice thing to have, want a metallic black sword? you got it! but it isnt something id use as just a basic paint as it is essentially distilled sparkliness.

 

it does require you to clean your brush thouroughly after use though, otherwise everything will have little metallic fleks in it without you realising.

[Subtle Discord]

Note to self: Get an airbrush and compressor.

 

I completely agree. I know I don't 'need' one, but everyone who has one seems to get a bit gollum-like when they talk about them. "My... preciousssss..." And right now I'm on a kick to start getting new tools and techniques to trim time on the jobs I'm doing. Soooo much faster you say? I'm in.

[alex567]

Hey, Alex here, So for Astral Claws would you recomend using a matt medium then? I'm going for a, "we've been here a while" look so dusty dirty city worn, so as if they've spent the last few months fighting through an urban climate non stop, so no armour cleaning, weapons stolen from enemies ammo stolen from enemies (enemies are space marines) as if their pushing forward after they have been dug in for a while and this is gonna be their counter attack possibaly? thoughts?

[Lorenzen]

honestly id say keep the metal shiny.. it may seem odd, but it will make the grime and dirt look that much more mucky

 

if you run a dull metal with dull dirt and dull grime.. guess what your figures end up looking.. if you keep them generally pretty shiny ie metallics with a gloss coat then other details after.. you can work it all into looking grimy and still looking sharp.. and then its all a matter of how you protect it afterwards.. ie either a satin coat or manually doing the trim with matte.

 

http://browse.deviantart.com/?qh=&sect...xtures#/d1kpt6j

 

now not to derail and shamelessly plug myself too much..

 

but

 

http://s224.photobucket.com/albums/dd199/t...ostfinished.jpg

 

add more contrast between a few of the joints, more dirt and grime and itll look better than a dulled down metal would.

 

and in terms of airbrushes (and the mandatory compressor) as long as you keep them clean (i run screenwash through mine between paints) and have a few pre mixed sets of paint to go through it (never mix stuff IN the airbrush itll clog and not work) they will speed up production of stuff no end.. neat coat of steel on all your figures? done in the time it takes most people to hand coat a squad.. no brush marks in your tanks and using light colours over dark bases.. not a problem.. just dont expect it to make you a golden daemon winner over night and look over as many tutorials as possible and you'll be laughing.

[alex567]

Hey, Alex here, thanks again for all the tips, next topic, weathering? does any one know any good combo's to get a nice weathering colour? subtle discord, I saw you posted on that other Astral Claw's page? do you know how he did that dirty weathering because that looked nice, and also do you weather normal troopers? It may be silly but, its not a dumb question if you ask right? If you do weather basic men's I'm lookinf for a dusty gravely style look, so guys that have been stomping around in a construction site but more of a city thats been destoyed/space lasered. Also before any of you go and write 5 pages of stuff about weathering I would like to let you know I dont know how to do weathering! thanks.

[Lorenzen]

weathering comes in several varieties.. you have the dinks and scratches which are done by doing a dark line then highlighting the bottom edge of it.

 

theres weathering with powders which essentially just requires you dusting a very small amount of pigment onto the area you want looking dusty/rusty/muddy and then messing about with it a bit.

 

you can weather with a sponge.. ie dab a bit of sponge into some black & brown paint and dab the model with it after removing the excess for some random spatters of mud & chipping..

 

there is worn paint, which is done by making it look like one paint has worn away to reveal the base layer.. in the case of astral claws it'd be blue wearing away to reveal silver etc.

 

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd199/typhion/Deathwing-1.jpg

 

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd199/typhion/Bromhardtalmostfinished.jpg

 

using these 2 pics as examples makes my life easier.. the deathwing termie has specks of brown & black over him.. this is the sponge method, the fire angel also has it on his shield.

 

the streak on his crotch was down with oil paint to get that nice stained effect.. oil paints can be "reactivated" with white spirit so can be played about with a lot longer for things like this.

 

the line on his knee was down using a masking medium, but can easily be acheived by just reapplying the base colour over the top of the "detail" as it were

 

the scratch on the fire angels knee was down with a line of black and a line of vallejo model air steel.. nice and simple.

 

the dusty look around the legs and a few parts on the shield etc were done with powders.. literally dry powder dusted onto the model (if you varnish it it will look wet.) i find a mix of wet (aka protected) powder and some dry looks best.

 

essentially weathering is pretty simple stuff but does take time.

 

oh and if you are refering to pj1933's astral claws im pretty sure his method is vma gun, zenith vma steel, final highlight chrome, then a mig "dark wash" in the recesses.. whilst my own method is vma gun, zenith vma steel, homebrewed wash made of black and brown oil paints and a lot of white spirits over a coat of gloss varnish.. which is why my metal is a little more mottled looking in places.

[alex567]

Hey, Alex here, before I get into my reply may I just say lovely models you have here, you've done them justice! Anyhow, back to astral claws and weathering, thanks for the tips, I think I'm gonna get me some of that powder, other then forgeworld does anywhere else do weathering powders? I'm gonna use some of the chippping and mabe Some of the worn paint, I'm not to sure on the sponging method, it looks nice but I dunno whether its the effect I'm after, mostly the dusting and wearing. It all seems so simple now its been exlained yet before it seemed so difficult, thanks for the tips. Now on larger tanks how would you get that dirty track look on the bottom of the tracks like "insert name here" had on his astral claw tanks? And if I wanted to paint strait lines using tape what would you recommend? I tried using double sided sticky tape because A its weaker then the other tapes so doesnt ruin the paint and B its the only one other then sellartape I have, would masking tape be weaker because double sided sticky didnt work great! Thanks for all the tips!

[Subtle Discord]

If it's this thread you're referring to, then I can say it's done with Rust coloured (and other 'darker' colours) weathering powders, but they're not being specific. The technique is a bit involved (see below) but very attainable.

 

I used various techniques with the weathering powders some are from IA modelling masterclass book others are picked up from various military modelling magazines as I find these invaluable for techniques and inspiration with weathering. I used a mix of MIG and Forge World powders both work fine and it was purely down to colour choice which I was using. The way I did the lower surfaces of the armour was to airbrush tamiya acrylic thinner on to the area I wanted covered, you can use any thinner here including water. I then lightly sprinkled on the powders using a drybrush loaded with powder and tapping with a finger above the area to be covered, I worked on one side at a time for this. You can mix your colours here but I started with a light earth powder for this and then added the darker red coloured powders at a later stage. Then again with the airbrush I lightly sprayed thinner over the powders to blend them into the surface and left them to dry. You can then go back with a dry brush and rub off the powders from areas where it's too heavy or you want to show wear/rubbing, etc. The dark powders were applied in a similar fashion onto a thinner dampened surface but I used a flicking motion with a brush to get the splatter effects and these were gently blended with airbrushed thinner too but with lower pressure. The top surfaces had the powders applied with a small drybrush and moved to where I wanted them and then fixed in place by using a large brush soaked in thinners or MIG pigment fixer and let it flow into the powders by lightly touching the brush onto the surface with as little movement as possible so as not to smudge them. Hope this helps ^_^

 

Take what's being described here and consider how you might want to do it for yourself. Don't worry about making exactly the same, but this is a good reference to start from.

 

In your case, since you're going to have a lot of unpainted metal/silver, chipping effects will be done on the Blue colours, and you can add dings and scratches with bright Silver dings and scratches on the darker base.

 

Sponge techniques are better suited for a paint chip effect, as they add a random cracking/peeling effect very easily with some practice. For dinging and scratching metal, I'd just add appropriate marks (again test and practice your technique a bit before starting on a model) with a fine brush. With a bit of practice you can get a feel for adding natural feeling 'squiggles' with the tip of a brush. Also, don't be afraid to do this with thinned paint and go back and go over a spot a few times. This can produce a very nice rough effect that add depth very easily.

[Lorenzen]

masking tape is the way to go, if you're worried about it being too sticky run it across a tshirt or something first just to get rid of that extra stick..

 

to get that worn track look rather than painting them with metallics, paint your tracks with a watered down dark flesh or terracota then apply some badab black to them, any exposed metal you want to add to them can come later for those few edges you want showing.

 

using every method of weathering going isnt always necessary, just use the ones you think will look right for you.

 

in terms of weathering powders mig make the vast majority of them and i believe there is a company called ak or something similar that makes powders too.

the forgeworld ones are good (its what i started out with) but mig offer a wider variety so are worth checking out as a definite.

[alex567]

Hey, Alex here, firsty may I just say thank you for all the help you have all given me, I have realy picked up some useful tips, and although I havent been able to put them into practise yet, if and when I get my airbrush Ill be able to crack out some old models and try out a few techniques, I think I am all set, I have looked through a few of subtle discords blog(s?) and picked up some good tips from their also, youve all been a big help and again thank you, all the models posted here have been realy nice and I hope to get mine up to that standard! My next post will either be a reply to someone who posts or most likely it'll be a link to my Astral Claws blog, only 11 days to go till I get 'em! Cant wait! Thanks for your time!