Critiquing and Commenting

[Shinzaren]

Hello Liberites both new and old. This little piece of writing is my attempt to express some of the ideas and thought swirling through my head in regards to the Liber. I hope you read and enjoy it, but that you don't take it as gospel or assault me on the points you disagree with. This is based mainly on my own experiences and the advice of the some of the Liber's greatest sages. Feel free to disregard any and all of it, I don't mind it the least.

 

Around the Liber, the issue of C&C is often raised. Everyone that posts is looking for one, the other, or both. It is a vital part of how the Liber and the boards of the Legio Bolter and Chainsword function. However, despite its crucial nature, people are often at odds on how it should be presented. The Octaguide, created by our own Octavulg, has a brief section detailing the importance of criticism and its function. This should be required reading for everyone who posts on these boards, as it is a very useful look at what goes on here. Among the Liber Astartes and the boards in general, there are multiple approaches and methods of criticisms, ranging from the nice and easy, to the painful and rough. Every poster will develop their own style, and each will endeavor to get his/her points across in their own method. This post/topic is how I see this aspect of the Liber, as well as an examination of the pros and cons of each. In essence, I will be making my own comments on the Octaguide, breaking down the individual methods.

 

The methods of C&C are varied, but can be broken down into a few main categories. These categories are New Posters, Tentative Assessments, Confident Assessments, and Iron-Clad Assessments. Each individual category can also be broken down into two main styles, which Octavulg describes as Fine Grit and Rough Grit, monikers I see no reason to change. Fine Grit is the belief that the good ideas should recognized alongside the bad, and that the feelings of the author are paramount. This approach focuses on keeping everyone happy and helping authors find the ideas and beliefs that work best for them. The Fine Grit approach is kind but lenient, focusing on the individual, rather than the damage to the shared universe. Rough Grit is the belief that the bad ideas must be corrected first. They focus less on the author's feelings and happiness and more an identifying and neutralizing problems in a Topic. This approach can often be taken as a personal attack on a Topic Starter, and so should be approached carefully, so as not to upset anyone. The Rough Grit approach is harsh but fair, building a shared universe that everyone works inside, sometimes at the price of a crazy idea. The most important thing to remember is that the Liber and the B&C are based on respect and understanding. Regardless of your individual approach, you should always endeavor to remain respectful of both the poster and his ideas, and should never, ever, under any circumstances, make your comments or critiques personal attacks on either. The Golden Rule is the heart of C&C, and one should always strive to deliver one's comments in the manner that one would like to receive them in. Treat each of your fellows respectfully, and they will do the same to you, furthering the B&C ideals of cooperation and understanding for the betterment of the 40k Hobby. With that disclaimer/rule out of the way, we can now begin looking at the different C&C types and how each is relevant and important to the B&C.

 

1.) New Posters. New posters and members of the Liber and the Bolter and Chainsword in general usually take a little while to find their rhythm. Once they have identified the board which they will spend the majority of their time on -Liber Astartes for the purposes of this discussion- they generally lurk a bit before making comments on the other topics, usually in an attempt to make friends and get noticed, in the hopes of getting C&C on their own post/chapter. The new poster usually responds in a very positive manner, commenting on the good aspects of a idea or chapter. They are usually polite and if not truly helpful, at least they mean well. The new posters are the lifeblood as the boards and should be treated with the utmost respect and kindness at all times, helping to promote a decent atmosphere and general sense of well-being among the members. Occasionally new members of the B&C will have experience with forums from other sites and will be more likely to skip this step and head straight to C&C type 2, Tentative Posters. Among the new poster assessments, the Fine/Rough approach isn't usually seen, as they are too intent on making introductions to blast apart ideas or soothe egos.

 

2.) Tentative Assessments. Tentative Assessments are usually made by members and posters who have lurked and commented on a few chapters and feel reasonably confident enough to start looking for faults in other chapters. Each has started to develop their own ideas about what a good chapter is, and what a bad chapter is as well. They are exploring how to get their C&C across in a useful way, without being glossed over or ignored for not knowing enough. Their posts are usually colored with 'I believe' or 'I recall' statements, indicating they are confident enough to point out errors and differences of opinion but are also reasonable enough to realize they aren't 100% certain on how well these points are sourced or understood by the board as a whole. It is at this point in a poster's experience that he/she begins to develop the Fine/Rough Grit approach that they will use going forward. In the instance of Tentative Assessments, these two differing styles remain largely similar, though there a few unique points between them.

• Rough Grit: The rough grit approach by the Tentative Assessment poster is usually identified by the poster focusing mainly on the negative portions of the topic in question. They will gloss over good ideas or ideas that work well already in favor of pointing out flaws or problems. Though they will still maintain their approach of 'I believe', their C&C will be about trimming the bad or unworkable ideas, thus leading to a post that can be seen as mildly harsh or negative, though the reality is the poster recognizes the good ideas by NOT mentioning them.
  
• Fine Grit: Fine grit is identified by the poster focusing mainly on the good ideas of a topic, pointing out what ideas spoke to him/her personally and seemed workable. They may spend time on the negatives as well, but they generally believe on rewarding the good ideas first, so as not to appear negative, or provoke any hurt feelings. This approach seeks to help the Topic Starter by providing instances of success or good work. This approach may seem to be unproductive at producing a completed, flaw free article, but the reality is that such posts are vital to keeping up the moral of the Topic Starter, who being to question his ideas or worth after receiving to many Rough Grit responses.
  

3.) Confident Assessments. Confident Assessments are made by posters who have come into their own, fully embracing their chosen forum and possessing the experience to know what works and what doesn't. This is the most common type of C&C found among the Liber, and is generally the most useful to a potention Topic Starter. The Confident Assessment is delivered in Rough or Fine format, and each is perfectly acceptable, if done correctly. The Confident Assessment has a firm grasp on the unspoken rules of the Liber and knows at a glance which ideas will come under fire, and why. The Confident Assessment is usually one of the first type of responses a Topic Starter will receive, and the earliest deliveries will usually bring up 1 or 2 points that will take flak, or 1 or 2 points that will be viewed favorably. Which points are brought up depends on the poster, and his/her individual approach to C&C. In general, the two points are wholly separate at this point, and each has some distinct markers.

• Fine Grit: Fine Grit Confident Assessments are usually identified like their compatriots above, highlighting workable or useful ideas. Unlike their Tentative brothers however, the Confident Poster is generally able to identify immediately which ideas are unique and productive. While the Fine Grit may make a point of building up the moral or ego of the Topic Starter, they are also able to stop unworkable or unfavorable ideas, pointing them out kindly and graciously, suggesting changes, rather than demanding them. The Fine approach generally seeks to make the Topic Starter understand that the Topic in question is always his/hers to keep or changes, regardless of what the other posters tell them is wrong. This approach won't lead to massive overhauls or quick cutting of bad ideas, but it also won't lead to discouragement or frustration, as the good ideas of a Topic are highlighted alongside the bad. This approach is popular among the more even-keeled of the Liber, and has several advocates for it.
  
• Rough Grit: Rough Grit Confident Assessments are highlighter by the immediate and uncompromising identification of unworkable ideas. The Rough Grit poster will look at a Topic and focus on the bad ideas, or the ideas that clash with the established fluff and background. The goal of the Rough Grit approach is to get rid of the problems in an Topic, leading to one that works inside the established universe. The feelings of the poster are secondary to ensuring that the shared universe isn't crushed underfoot. This approach has the benefit of being direct, but suffers from the fact that it can often be mistaken for a personal attack or a cheap shot at the Topic Starter. The Rough Grit poster should always strive to ensure that the Topic Starter knows that the C&C provided is in no way meant to be taken personally or as an attack on the Topic Starter. The Rough Grit approach is one that is popular among the more fluff driven, hard-line members of the Liber, and this too has several advocates.
  

4.) Iron-Clad Assessments: This category assessments doesn't necessarily conform to an experience group like the other three, but rather can be done by anyone. The C&C made using this approach is that certain ideas go against the established background far to obviously. Ideas like Female Marines, Lost Legions, and Alien Marines are all examples of the Iron-Clad Assessment being invoked. It should be noted however, that such ideas are not unworkable, or should be lambasted immediately. Instead, posters should endeavor to explain that such ideas go against GW's established fluff, and should be sourced accordingly. Given proper explanation or a good enough reason, no idea is truly unusable, something many who invoke the Iron-Clad Assessment forget. The Iron-Clad assessment is usually used by the Rough Grit approach, since it focuses solely on pointing out ideas that are unworkable or unusable in the shared universe without extremely good justification. Rarely will one point out how a good idea is so in line with the GW fluff, since the poster and the readers already know and accept this.

 

The above four styles are all up for debate, and none should be taken as fact. These are merely the expressions and views of one Liberite, following the advice of another. Octavulg once told me that everyone should write their own guide, as it leads to a better understanding of the issues in question. I find myself agreeing, having written this small piece. It should be noted by any/all who read this, that I myself am a Rough Grit poster. In my mind, it is better that potential Topic Starters and writers have a clear understanding of what won't work, rather than be praised for ideas that do work. Proponents of both styles are many and varied, and the most important rule of the Liber is that each member understands and respects the others. As I write this, I am reminded of the differences between myself, and Ace Debonair, who I see as the poster boy for the Fine Grit approach. Ace is very nice, nicer by far than I, but he is also usually right. His responses usually focus on the positive ideas in a chapter and he is very willing to draft color schemes and other helpful things to aid new Topic Starters. By contrast, I find myself mainly pointing out flaws or bad ideas in a given topic. My posts and responses are usually geared towards helping a Topic Starter recognize potential problems in his/her topic and fix them. I generally post once or twice in a given topic, usually in a long piece by piece assessment of a topic. It is rare for me to go back an C&C a topic again, since I don't like repeating myself, and usually when the changes are made, I don't have a lot more to say, since the ideas at this point are generally acceptable ones. Ace is the guy who sticks around and makes every new member feel welcome and loved in the Liber, and for that I have the utmost respect.

 

It is the members of the B&C that make it such a great place to stay, and only by recognizing these members and their good work can we hope to continue. If you receive C&C that you dislike or disagree with, respond in a positive manner. Ask questions. As Octavulg says, we love to pontificate, and given the chance, each member of the Liber will be glad to show off his/her knowledge or wonderful ideas. Never assume that a post was aimed as an attack on you, and if you do feel that way, calmly ask for an explanation on the poster's intentions. I myself have been accused of attacking Topic Starters and their ideas, when all I meant to do was showcase the points that I feel didn't work. After explaining and opening dialogue with a Topic Starter, such problems have been quickly cleared up and cordial relations ensue. Never forget that each wall of text or anonymous post was made by a human being, one who is probably very proud of the work that went into their Topic. The biggest problem to plague the Liber is that people sometimes forget this and lose their heads over words on a screen. As mentioned above, open dialogue and conversation goes a long way here, and one should never make it personal.

 

Lastly, remember that the only way a Liber member knows you is by how you act on the board. If you C&C like a jerk and go about destroying people ideas unapologetically, people will begin to see you as a jerk. If on the other hand, you are always helpful and friendly, people will begin to see you as such. I reference Ace again, as he is the perfect example here. While I do not know Ace in real life, my interactions with him on the boards, and my experiences with him and his C&C have led me to the belief that Ace is a good guy. He has established a reputation as slightly goofy, but always nice, and that is important. He is a respected member of the Liber because he has spent a long time earning that respect. Strive to be like that at all times and you can't go wrong. Even if you prefer a coarser approach to C&C and spend much of your time telling people they are wrong, do it nicely. Build a reputation based on respect and you will earn a lot of respect for yourself. Play your cards right, comment often enough, be useful and helpful enough, and maybe, just maybe, you'll find yourself mentioned in one of the Liber Astartes silly short stories you occasionally see. Every single person I have mentioned in those stories is a person that I have a great deal of respect for and am willing to accept the harshest criticism from. Even they are telling me that I am flat out wrong, I can accept that because I know that their intentions are good and they mean well, and that is the most important thing to me. Remember, we all need to work together here.

 

At the suggestion of GhostLegion, I have decided to add examples of the different C&C styles and approaches. All of them will be giving comments and criticisms on the same piece, shown here.

 

The Marines Benevolent.

 

Origins:

The Marines Benevolent are a second founding chapter of Space Marines, split from the geneseed of the Ultramarines. Following the aftermath of the Great Heresy, the Marines Benevolent were created to both divide the power of the Primarch lead legions, and to spread the coverage of Space Marines throughout the galaxy. Sent by their Primarch far from both Macragge and Holy Terra, the Marines Benevolent took up residence in a cluster of stars known as Firteras. This small grouping contained only one semi-habitable world, but stood as a bulwark system between a pair of Ork Kingdoms and a Necron Tomb world. The earliest engagements of the Chapter would see it battling these three-fold enemies, perfecting their tactics of baiting and destroying their enemies in clever traps and feigned withdrawals. Tragedy would strike the Chapter however, as the Firteras system's main star emitted a radiation unseen and undetected by the Imperium's science. Such a warping influence began to slowly alter the nature of the geneseed, overcoming even the Space Marine's superhuman bodies. The first mutations were small, a darker skin tone and yellowish eyes being the first. Gradually however the systems worsened with each generation. Eventually it reached the point where the Marines Benevolent were all bright crimson skinned with blazing yellow eyes. Though mostly cosmetic, in a small grouping of marines, psychological and extreme physical systems began to develop. The changes overworked the adrenalin centers of the brain, leading to a near constant state of frenzy, but also lead to a heightened state of intellect. Physically they began to develop longer fang-like teeth, and distinct facial ridges, marking these Sun Touched for all to see. Though half mad with rage and adrenalin, the heightened intellect and neural processing made them incredibly gifted, though hard to control, scientists and apothecaries.

 

Desperate to cure themselves, the Marines Benevolent hid their curse, and assigned their now mad geniuses to the task of repairing the damage. Physically restrained and waited on by servitors who served as their hands, these marines made several startling and outright dangerous discoveries. Advancements were made in weaponry, armor, tactics, and more; the mad brains serving as near prophets in their blinding comprehension. Though still in the initial days of the Imperium of Man, the Marines Benevolent knew these creations were dangerous, and developed all of them in utmost secrecy, forcing their Techmarines to cast off any dual oaths to the Machine God. These advances revolutionized how the Marines Benevolent waged war, and within a decade, the Orks and Necrons had been completely eliminated, reduced to ash by the terrifying products of these deranged minds. Still however, a cure eluded them, and more and more Sun Touched appeared in each recruitment. Finally deciding that their homeworld could no longer serve, they abandoned Firteras. The damage had already been done however, and with each batch of recruits, new Sun Touched emerged. Deciding to utilize them the only way they could, the Marines Benevolent kept them chained in the deepest decks of their Battle Barges, waited on by Servitors and watched over by marines trained to decipher the babble of their heightened minds. The fevered inventions produced in the Chapter's forges make them terrifying opponents, and their dedication to eventually curing their flaw has made them fanatics. These two traits make the Marines Benevolent terrible enemies to face in battle, and if they are capable of curing their affliction, this new and wondrous technology could be a great asset to the Imperium, though the Marines Benevolent have sworn to take their curse and its twisted fruits must be born by them alone until they can repair the damage caused and stand before their Primarch pure and whole.

 

This is the piece in question, created by me to serve as the example we need. Each of the 4 Approaches will be demonstrated, as well as their fine and rough grit subsets.

 

1.)New Posters:

"Great start! The Marines Benevolent seem to have a great flaw to build on, and I definitely look forward to seeing more on them. I really like how you incorporated their flaw as both a blessing and a curse, and it seems really neat how they put these mad scientists to work for them! Keep it up!"

In this example, the New Poster is more intent on being positive and showing how much he enjoyed the beginning. He probably has some ideas of why this Origins section is flawed, but he is hesitant to state them outright, trying to make a good impression before assaulting a Veteran poster's ideas.

 

2a.)Tentative Assessment, Fine Grit:

"Excellent start, though I don't believe the Necrons were around that early, not entirely sure though. I really like how you tried to incorporate your unique flaw and build on that for the character of the Chapter. I think the Sun Touched will definitely be a asset to the chapter, but I really like how they are remaining secretive and hiding them until they can fix the geneseed. Only little quibble though, besides the Necrons, why didn't they leave earlier? :D Seems like they should want to get away from that planet ASAP ;)"

The Fine Grit approach starts off positive, letting the author know that he is off to a good start. He makes a small negative point, but immediately follows with a pair of compliments, ensuring the author knows that he/she is doing good work. Comments mainly on how good the start of the chapter is, and uses lots of humor to bring up any possible missteps. Still uses some "I believe" and "I think statements", but is otherwise right on the money.

 

2b.)Tentative Assessment, Rough Grit:

"Its an okay intro, but you need to deal with the Necron issue. I believe they came in later in the universe, and having them that early will only cause problems for you. Also, I don't think the Marines Benevolent is a good name for a group of hardened killers. I dunno, just seems a bit nice for my taste. Lastly, why didn't the Marines Benevolent just pack up and leave the star earlier? Doesn't make sense to stick around. I do like the mad scientist idea though, that is pretty cool. I think the AM would want some of that tech, but I don't know for sure how they handle that."

The Rough Grit approach gets right to the point. The Necrons are a big issue, and will be raised again in the Iron-Clad Approach. They also point out another set of potential problems with the name, and take a critical look at the thought process of the Marines Benevolent. Why wouldn't they leave? He has a sprinkling of "I believe" and "I think" statements, indicating that while he is being tough, he knows that he could be wrong and is leaving the post open to be corrected/sourced. It should also be noted that he incorporates a positive set of comments, much like the Fine Grit incorporates small negatives.

 

3a.)Confident Assessment, Fine Grit: (Ace, help me out here if I screw up the nice approach ;) )

The Marines Benevolent.

 

Origins:

The Marines Benevolent are a second founding chapter of Space Marines, split from the geneseed of the Ultramarines.

Hey! Welcome to the Liber, and I hope you enjoy your stay. Just watch out for bowling balls ;) I recommend reading the Sticky Guide at the top of the Liber thread, since it is very helpful to new posters like yourself! That said, you have a good start, and you are well on your way to a completed chapter! I only have one minor thing here, and that is the second founding. Since we know nearly all of these, perhaps change the chapter founding to later? Fourth perhaps, so can be as old as you want, without being second generation. It's your chapter though, so make sure you are happy with it first off.

 

Following the aftermath of the Great Heresy, the Marines Benevolent were created to both divide the power of the Primarch lead legions, and to spread the coverage of Space Marines throughout the galaxy. Sent by their Primarch far from both Macragge and Holy Terra, the Marines Benevolent took up residence in a cluster of stars known as Firteras. This small grouping contained only one semi-habitable world, but stood as a bulwark system between a pair of Ork Kingdoms and a Necron Tomb world.

This is pretty good, shows them setting out and finding a new world. The Necrons weren't around until fairly recently though, so you may want to change that to another enemy, perhaps the Dark Eldar? No one likes those sneaky Space Elves anyway. I like how you have two Ork kingdoms, basically setting three different enemies instead of just two.

 

The earliest engagements of the Chapter would see it battling these three-fold enemies, perfecting their tactics of baiting and destroying their enemies in clever traps and feigned withdrawals. Tragedy would strike the Chapter however, as the Firteras system's main star emitted a radiation unseen and undetected by the Imperium's science. Such a warping influence began to slowly alter the nature of the geneseed, overcoming even the Space Marine's superhuman bodies. The first mutations were small, a darker skin tone and yellowish eyes being the first. Gradually however the systems worsened with each generation. Eventually it reached the point where the Marines Benevolent were all bright crimson skinned with blazing yellow eyes.

This is a good way to introduce a genetic flaw into the otherwise pure geneseed of Roboute Gulliman. Excellent work setting up the tone for the tragedy ahead.

 

Though mostly cosmetic, in a small grouping of marines, psychological and extreme physical systems began to develop. The changes overworked the adrenalin centers of the brain, leading to a near constant state of frenzy, but also lead to a heightened state of intellect. Physically they began to develop longer fang-like teeth, and distinct facial ridges, marking these Sun Touched for all to see. Though half mad with rage and adrenalin, the heightened intellect and neural processing made them incredibly gifted, though hard to control, scientists and apothecaries.

Oh! I thought you were going Blood Angels curse, but I get mad scientist instead. Nice twist. I like how you kept away from super combat abilities and focused on the mental aspect.

 

Desperate to cure themselves, the Marines Benevolent hid their curse, and assigned their now mad geniuses to the task of repairing the damage. Physically restrained and waited on by servitors who served as their hands, these marines made several startling and outright dangerous discoveries. Advancements were made in weaponry, armor, tactics, and more; the mad brains serving as near prophets in their blinding comprehension. Though still in the initial days of the Imperium of Man, the Marines Benevolent knew these creations were dangerous, and developed all of them in utmost secrecy, forcing their Techmarines to cast off any dual oaths to the Machine God.

This is good, but I would be careful with the AM (Adeptus Mechanicus), as they are super controlling when it comes to technology. Perhaps have some extreme example of those Techmarines who wouldn't betray Mars and had to be dealt with? It shows how far they are willing to go to keep their secret. Other than that, servitors for hands ideas is good, a unique use of the "locked up madness" trope.

 

These advances revolutionized how the Marines Benevolent waged war, and within a decade, the Orks and Necrons had been completely eliminated, reduced to ash by the terrifying products of these deranged minds. Still however, a cure eluded them, and more and more Sun Touched appeared in each recruitment. Finally deciding that their homeworld could no longer serve, they abandoned Firteras. The damage had already been done however, and with each batch of recruits, new Sun Touched emerged. Deciding to utilize them the only way they could, the Marines Benevolent kept them chained in the deepest decks of their Battle Barges, waited on by Servitors and watched over by marines trained to decipher the babble of their heightened minds. The fevered inventions produced in the Chapter's forges make them terrifying opponents, and their dedication to eventually curing their flaw has made them fanatics. These two traits make the Marines Benevolent terrible enemies to face in battle, and if they are capable of curing their affliction, this new and wondrous technology could be a great asset to the Imperium, though the Marines Benevolent have sworn to take their curse and its twisted fruits must be born by them alone until they can repair the damage caused and stand before their Primarch pure and whole.

Very nice, now they Crusade among the stars I assume? Good work with exploring the earliest nature of the flaw, which you can build on in the geneseed and beliefs section. Just be careful about how you hide, because the Inquisition is always watching. The tragic hero chapter is well established now and you have a lot of foundation to build on. Keep up the good work, but watch out that you don't make them too powerful, or no one will like them. Keep at it, and you will have a chapter in no time!

 

As you can see, the Fine Grit approach is dedicated to making sure the author knows he did a lot of good work. The Fine Grit welcomes the Liberite and begins to C&C, making sure to stress all the points he liked, while touching only briefly on the problems. The Fine Grit poster always tries to ensure that the author stays positive, even if it means his criticisms aren't focused on or are lsot in the sea of positive. The author feels welcomed and is more willing to continue posting and working with the Liber.

 

3b.)Confident Assessment, Rough Grit: (This is how I would critique this exact post)

Welcome to the Liber! Sorry if I come off a little harsh, just looking at your work here. Nothing against you, I promise :)

 

The Marines Benevolent.

This isn't very GrimDark. The world of the 41st millennium is a nightmare galaxy of death and destruction. The Nice Marines don't seem to fit real well in that universe. Perhaps the name generator can help you find something Grimmer or Darker.

 

Origins:

The Marines Benevolent are a second founding chapter of Space Marines,

The Second Founding is well documented, and even an Ultramarines chapter that wasn't listed would be hard to swallow. What do you gain from this? Go Fourth founding, as it makes you old and venerable, without all the people crying foul over a second founding.

 

This small grouping contained only one semi-habitable world, but stood as a bulwark system between a pair of Ork Kingdoms and a Necron Tomb world.

Necrons didn't appear in the galaxy at large until after the most recent founding, nearly 10,000 years after the creation of your chapter. Dark Eldar fit better, since they are always about. No Necrons though.

 

The earliest engagements of the Chapter would see it battling these three-fold enemies, perfecting their tactics of baiting and destroying their enemies in clever traps and feigned withdrawals.

Why fight this way? This seems to be more Alpha Legion than Ultramarines, and since you guys were Ultramarines until 10 minutes ago, it makes sense to fight like them.

 

The changes overworked the adrenalin centers of the brain, leading to a near constant state of frenzy, but also lead to a heightened state of intellect. Physically they began to develop longer fang-like teeth, and distinct facial ridges, marking these Sun Touched for all to see. Though half mad with rage and adrenalin, the heightened intellect and neural processing made them incredibly gifted, though hard to control, scientists and apothecaries.

This is actually pretty neat. Degraded Ultramarines from the second or fourth founding would be rare, and I don't think I've seen the mad scientist trope applied to Space Marines. Not bad at all.

 

Though still in the initial days of the Imperium of Man, the Marines Benevolent knew these creations were dangerous, and developed all of them in utmost secrecy, forcing their Techmarines to cast off any dual oaths to the Machine God.

The problem here is that you are required to submit geneseed tithes and new marines to Mars every couple of years for training. The AM would see the geneseed flaws and tell someone, and the Techmarines they trained couldn't be guaranteed to keep their mouths shut. The AM are super greedy and would want your tech. They would get your tech too, since they can bring far far more forces to bear against you. They are going to kill you and take your stuff. You need to find a good way to hide all of these flaws from the AM, perhaps by negotiating a deal with a Magos of a higher rank, trading your new tech for protection.

 

These advances revolutionized how the Marines Benevolent waged war, and within a decade, the Orks and Necrons had been completely eliminated, reduced to ash by the terrifying products of these deranged minds.

Still no Necrons... :)

 

Still however, a cure eluded them, and more and more Sun Touched appeared in each recruitment. Finally deciding that their homeworld could no longer serve, they abandoned Firteras.

Wait what? They just now left the star system? That doesn't make any sense... Why would they stick around and keep getting fried? Why not move out as soon as they figured out what the cause was?

 

The damage had already been done however, and with each batch of recruits, new Sun Touched emerged. Deciding to utilize them the only way they could, the Marines Benevolent kept them chained in the deepest decks of their Battle Barges, waited on by Servitors and watched over by marines trained to decipher the babble of their heightened minds. The fevered inventions produced in the Chapter's forges make them terrifying opponents, and their dedication to eventually curing their flaw has made them fanatics.

Technology and Genius Minds are leading dangerously close to M.I.S.S. (Me? I'm. So. Super.) territory. Tone it down a bit so they aren't so overwhelmingly awesome.

 

Not a bad start, though there are definitely some issues. Overall though it is fairly unique, especially the mad scientist parts. Just take care of the issues and this is a solid start to a chapter.

 

The Rough Grit approach is direct and immediately to the point, hitting the major flaws right in a row. The compliments are minimal, and most of the good or workable ideas are skipped altogether, their space given over to better hammering home the flawed points. It is important to note that the goal of the Rough Grit is to improve the author's work by helping it fit in the shared universe. The Rough Grit poster makes sure to point out at the beginning that nothing is meant to be personal or hurtful, just to the point. The Rough Grit approach has the advantage of addressing all the major flaws without preamble or couching, but also runs the risk of alienating the author or inducing an argument. Steps should be made to address this at every opportunity, always ensuring the author knows the goal was to help, not hurt.

 

4.) Iron-Clad Assessment. As you noticed, the Necron issue came up nearly every time. This is an example of the Iron-Clad assessment, since official fluff sources state that first contact with the Necrons happened after the 26th and most recent founding. Now, if allusions were made to metallic warriors who could repair their injuries, then it might be workable, since the Necrons have obviously been around but asleep for awhile, making it possible for the Necrons to be an enemy, though not one the Imperium would recognize or have a name for.

 

These are my examples. I would request that everyone who posts on here gives their own C&C so we can see multiple points of view. One you post your C&C, examine it, and make your own assessment of what approach and subset you think you believe you used. I think that by getting multiple C&Cs we can help give the readers much more diversity and ideas on how their C&C should be approached. Feel free to C&C my C&C as well haha, as this is the Liber!

 

-Shinzaren

[Hrvat]

Very nicely writen and inspiring to boot.

[Aqui]

Very nicely writen and inspiring to boot.

 

I've had a quick scan (I've just come back from the Work's party, so I'm a little tired B) ), however, I can't see anything that I'd disagree with. I'll have another, proper look later :D

[Ace Debonair]

I reference Ace again, as he is the perfect example here. While I do not know Ace in real life, my interactions with him on the boards, and my experiences with him and his C&C have led me to the belief that Ace is a good guy. He has established a reputation as slightly goofy, but always nice, and that is important. He is a respected member of the Liber because he has spent a long time earning that respect. Strive to be like that at all times and you can't go wrong.

 

*WARNING*:Ace Debonair is a fully-trained Cloudcuckoolander with a tendency to ramble inanely and post cringe-worthy attempts at humour. Do not try to copy him at home, unless your connection to sanity is only tangential anyway, and even then move all breakables out of easy reach first.

 

Also, I have no idea how I've wound up as the poster boy for the nice guy approach.

My Bowling Ball of C&C is Mastercrafted, darn it! ^_^

 

I suppose it's at least in part because I'm not afraid to take my medicine and post an IA (or six) for people to either mock, tear apart like pirahnas tearing apart fresh meat, or correct the spelling of. :(

 

 

Even if you prefer a coarser approach to C&C and spend much of your time telling people they are wrong, do it nicely. Build a reputation based on respect and you will earn a lot of respect for yourself.

 

This here is the key line, I think.

Also, if you really like an idea, don't be afraid to say so. Nobody will jump on you for wasting valuable criticism space!

[NightrawenII]

Also, I have no idea how I've wound up as the poster boy for the nice guy approach.

My Bowling Ball of C&C is Mastercrafted, darn it! ^_^

That's because certain people around here like to use da propa' stompy rolla', against which your bowling ball looks laughably mild and nice. ;)

 

It's all about comparison. :(

[Aqui]

I've re-read it and I can't find anything to fault :huh:

 

Regarding my own C+C style, whilst I don't give that much in regards to C+C (mainly because someone else has already pointed out things I've would have and feel no reason to repeat them - unless it's a very important point), I like to thing of myself as falling in the "Tentative assessment"/"Fine Grit" area. Whether this is acurate, I have no idea B)

[Reyner]

A very good read and pretty insightful. I'd fall into the Tentative Assessment/Confident Assessment Fine Grit category - in short, teach the newbies first then beat them half to death with a bowling ball!

[Dosjetka]

Aye, this is a really good piece of text Shinzaren B) Though I can't find myself in any of the categories above... maybe I should post more often to get a better idea :huh: Anyhoo, I'm really glad you posted this because it raises some points which are (for me) very important, such as respect for the newbies.

 

And Ace will always be the nice guy I say, regardless of if he likes it or not ;)

 

Ludovic

[Aqui]

And Ace will always be the nice guy I say, regardless of if he likes it or not B)

 

Ludovic

 

+1

 

I don't think he'll ever be able to join the Dark Side, no matter how hard he tries! :huh:

[Dosjetka]

+1

 

I don't think he'll ever be able to join the Dark Side, no matter how hard he tries! ;)

Even if we did steal the cookie pot :huh: B)

 

Ludovic

[Reyner]

+1

 

I don't think he'll ever be able to join the Dark Side, no matter how hard he tries! ^_^

Even if we did steal the cookie pot :tu: :lol:

 

Ludovic

THAT WAS YOU?!

[Aqui]

+1

 

I don't think he'll ever be able to join the Dark Side, no matter how hard he tries! ^_^

Even if we did steal the cookie pot :tu: :lol:

 

Ludovic

THAT WAS YOU?!

 

I don't care WHO did it!

 

DO. NOT. STEAL. THE. COOKIES!

 

EVER! ^_^

[Lord Heremes]

No one told me the dark side had cookies!!!! who kept this valuable information from me!!!!

 

Okay back on topic, i definitly see myself as a tentative poster, i lurk way too much :unsure:. On the other hand, reading articles like this are what motivate me to C&C as they give me a better understanding of what i should be focusing on and how to better give out my C&C.

[Ace Debonair]

And Ace will always be the nice guy I say, regardless of if he likes it or not :)

 

Ludovic

 

+1

 

I don't think he'll ever be able to join the Dark Side, no matter how hard he tries! :tu:

 

That's because the Nice Guy doesn't always finish last. :P

Especially not when he's a Techmarine competing in a Bowling Ball Arms Race.

 

EDIT:

Bleh? Why didn't it quote Nightrawen?

Oh well. My point is, my next Bowling Ball will have a built in Thunderfire Cannon.

 

 

 

Besides, Imperium-brand cookies are made with 10,000 year old blueprints cooked by an STC so old the Primarchs used to bake scones in it. Chaos has nothing on that.

[Aqui]

And Ace will always be the nice guy I say, regardless of if he likes it or not ;)

 

Ludovic

 

+1

 

I don't think he'll ever be able to join the Dark Side, no matter how hard he tries! :)

 

That's because the Nice Guy doesn't always finish last. ;)

Especially not when he's a Techmarine competing in a Bowling Ball Arms Race.

 

EDIT:

Bleh? Why didn't it quote Nightrawen?

Oh well. My point is, my next Bowling Ball will have a built in Thunderfire Cannon.

 

 

 

Besides, Imperium-brand cookies are made with 10,000 year old blueprints cooked by an STC so old the Primarchs used to bake scones in it. Chaos has nothing on that.

 

Death by Chocolate cake! :tu:

 

Okay, okay enough hijacking! :P

[Gulag]

I'm just wondering - is this thread in reference to some recent events or something that just came to mind?

[Shinzaren]

While I am rather pro-Hijacking in the 'This Is Liber Astartes' or other fun threads, this one should try to remain at least 10% on topic, as I think it is very important to the Liber as a whole, even though they are simply my opinions. In the trend of my fellow posters, I will also follow suit with this:

 

I myself am a Confident Assessment Rough Grit poster. I rarely couch my statements in 'I believes' or 'I recall', because I am usually too busy focusing on the big obvious issues first and foremost. Additionally, my personal and overriding philosophy is that one "Aww %&@#" makes up for twenty "Atta boys!", leading to a C&C style that is focused nearly entirely on removing the "Aww &%#@" from the equation. I sadly rely on others to recognize authors on the good work they do, although lately I find myself make more and more comments about how much I enjoy a unique idea or thought. That said, I can still be rather harsh in some of my comments, and I do apologize in advance if anything I have said offends anyone. Its not personal, its simply my individual style, I promise.

 

Ironically, having reached the Confident Assessment stage has actually slowed down my responses, as I try to give each IA a complete and thorough read, to do each Topic Starter justice. This sadly means I don't get in nearly as much C&C as I should, which saddens me because I'm not doing my part to help others as well as I was helped. It took me a long time to get here, as I lurked for a long time on my old computer under a different account name. When I got back into 40k after a hiatus, I returned to the boards with a vengeance, and the continued goodwill of the Liber proved immensely hard to resist. Thanks to incredible help I received I have one IA that I feel is very close to completed, and another one that is well on its way. Hopefully this post can inspire others to provide more C&C for the folks of the Liber, so that we all feel a bit more productive :)

 

EDIT:

I'm just wondering - is this thread in reference to some recent events or something that just came to mind?

A bit of both. I have been tinkering on the idea of a bit-by-bit guide to what I think is important, and I recently saw a thread devolve and then erupt in a cloud of burning flames because C&C and the reaction to it got a little out of hand. I sadly played a role in it, though unintentionally, by pig piling onto an idea that the author had already addressed. As some know, but many more do not, I rarely read the other C&C that has been given in a topic, preferring to look on it with fresh eyes. In this instance however, I did notice an issue that other authors had recognized as well, and I tried to join them in convincing the author of why it wouldn't work. Sadly, the methods used to try and make our point were not well received, and the overall thread went far off track and down hill. It convinced me that this little project of mine was more necessary than ever, and I committed some of my time to finally finishing it. Hopefully it is more helpful to others and aids in preventing some of the misunderstandings and fires that occasionally flare up. If nothing else, it gave me a better understanding of how I plan to C&C in the future and how I would like to receive C&C as well. It should be noted many many times however, that this is not iron-clad fact, everything I have written is my view and my belief on how C&C in the Liber should be done. If anyone disagrees, I would be glad to discuss any issues with them and help improve this little project, making it more useful to everyone :)

[GhostLegion]

nice bit of write up here and looks about acurate from what ive seen around...both in liber and other forums. only thing I could see to improve it would be to toss in some rough examples for of comments to each category. no, not direct quoting of any particular person...but maybe a whitewashed generalization/paraphrase of a comment you think would fit into these categories. this might assist people in seeing how/where they fit in the spectrum....might also help us as a group to improve the quality of our replies and C&C overall.

 

just a thought.

[Shinzaren]

The machine hears! The machine obeys! I will start work on that immediately :tu:

[Dosjetka]

The machine hears! The machine obeys! I will start work on that immediately ;)

Yay! Looking forward to reading v.1.1 :P And if you ever need help, I'm always up for it (alternatively, you can turn to the other people on this sub-forum, but you don't want their help, do you? :))

 

Ludovic

[Reyner]

Oh no he most certainly won't want our help ;)

 

The updated article is a good read and shows the different approaches very well. Now to put it to practice!

[Shinzaren]

Actually, I do want your help. I would request that everyone who has some time to kill or wants to chip read over that 2 paragraph piece I posted and C&C exactly as if it were posted in a new topic. Yes, we will see a lot of repetitiveness, but it will also help people look at what approach they prefer, and will let us see more examples of what the C&C on the Liber is like. Otherwise, I am already thinking of other things to do, but I'll need some help with those.

[Dosjetka]

Quickly whizzed through the second part of the first post and thought the examples were good and defined each category well. Great stuff :P

 

As for where I place myself, I'm still not sure. Depends on my mood/time/etc... so I'm in between Tentative-Confident and Fine-Rough (this really depends on my mood :)).

 

Sorry for not being able to be more precise!

 

Ludovic

[Hrvat]

:pinch: that is one awsome guide piece. I will respond to your request in the morning.

 

 

Cheers

[Reyner]

Reading the examples I would definitely say I'm more of a confident assessment - fine grit kinda guy (providing I have the time to highlight each part of the posters article). I will always try to be one of the nice guys, to act as a balance and to give the Liber a positive outlook for any new folk. If we were all a set of moody sods telling people their ideas are terrible and not offering better ways to go about writing an IA (or whatever) there will not be any new blood.

 

*I'll help out with anything else you have coming too.