Critiquing and Commenting

[GhostLegion]

nice working in the examples there Shinzaren ...i would caution however that several of them feel very similar despite the differences between the levels you have generated. still this illustration should help other readers to quickly grasp your points and see where they fit.

 

now for the monkey wrentch throwing ( ...comeon...you know i cant resist it! ) I would categorize these as positive/good feedback examples. what i mean here is despite the fact that there are negative points to the writing identified, the tone and general intent is improvement and guidance. this is the type of feedback we, meaning any of us writing here, would love to see as these comments give the author something to think about and either accept or reject as changes (it is their article after all...none of us have to like it, but the author does). the wrentch I am throwing at you is far far simpler....if these are good examples....what do bad examples look like?

 

and for even further amusement on this wrentch...I highly recommend using a different chapter example...one so blatantly wrong anyone who frequents this section of the forum couldnt help but target and rain steel down on them (if it were serious). yes....i do recomend the insanity of that group project of a bad example IA from a while ago....the unspeakable...the undesireable...the undeniably humorous because of the sheer insanity of it... (insert shameless drumroll for the evil shameless plug and dramatic pause here) .... the Ultra-Templars....

 

again...just a thought.

[Shinzaren]

I'm not even sure where to start for a bad C&C. I would probably just be belligerent and mean, and that's not fun for anyone. Otherwise, I am open to suggestions on what everyone considers a bad response.

[Ace Debonair]

3a.)Confident Assessment, Fine Grit: (Ace, help me out here if I screw up the nice approach :D )

 

What you've got there is NiceGuy+1; couching every point of C&C with 'that's good' or 'cool idea'.

Not even I go that far - I'm a Liberite after all! ;)

 

The general formula of welcome to the liber, read the diy guide, read the octaguide if you've got the nuts search-fu and brace yourself for C&C impact is pretty spot on though!

 

I'll admit to trotting that old routine out whenever confronted with a name I don't recognize and a recent join date, or if the posted suggestions are basically totally unacceptable.

It's better than ranting for 60 lines about how unacceptable thier idea is, right? ;)

 

These are my examples. I would request that everyone who posts on here gives their own C&C so we can see multiple points of view. One you post your C&C, examine it, and make your own assessment of what approach and subset you think you believe you used. I think that by getting multiple C&Cs we can help give the readers much more diversity and ideas on how their C&C should be approached. Feel free to C&C my C&C as well haha, as this is the Liber!

Do you want us to C&C your example C&C's, or the Marines Benevolent? :huh:

 

EDIT: Typos. Accursed, Emperor-forsaken typos.

[Dosjetka]

These are my examples. I would request that everyone who posts on here gives their own C&C so we can see multiple points of view. One you post your C&C, examine it, and make your own assessment of what approach and subset you think you believe you used. I think that by getting multiple C&Cs we can help give the readers much more diversity and ideas on how their C&C should be approached. Feel free to C&C my C&C as well haha, as this is the Liber!

Do you want us to C&C your example C&C's, or the Marines Benevolent? ;)

Same question here.

 

Ludovic

[Hrvat]

The Marines Benevolent...

 

 

This is one very interesteing piece of background and sufficiently well writen. Though some may coment on the existance of an active Tomb World in M31 the new background makes that possible. You just might want to elaborate how the world woke early, and here you might tie in the radiation from the star. The circutry is damaged and stuff and these necrons are more like deadly automatons performing preset protocols rather than the scourge of the galaxy. The second founding background was in the past advised to be left alone but recent revalations from Codex: Grey Knights point that maybe the mayority of Chapters currently in existance were created at the given time. The Mad Scientists approach is a cool one and well executed but you might want to explain a bit their relations with the Adeptus Mechanicus as I persume someone would notice the distnacing and wonder why is it so. Since 40k is grim and dark the name Marines Benevolent might stick out as a sore thumb but there a crafty ways to explain the name. For example you could say that Benevolence in their name comes from their willingness to share the Emperor's vision with the Xeno, the Heretics and the Traitors by illuminating them through their anihilation.

 

Cheers

[Shinzaren]

C&C everything! C&C the two paragraph piece. C&C the C&C of the two paragraph piece. C&C the C&C of the C&C.

 

"Yo dawg, we heard you like to comment and critique, so we put a comment in your critique so you can comment while you critique!"

[GhostLegion]

I'm not even sure where to start for a bad C&C. I would probably just be belligerent and mean, and that's not fun for anyone. Otherwise, I am open to suggestions on what everyone considers a bad response.

 

I think we could argue that bad C&C could fall into a couple categories (not sure i can name the categories really, but hey, thats what discussion like this is about no?)

 

i would argue that the following comment types could be identified as bad C&C (not all inclusive, but illustrative):

1. a comment which ignores the content and/or format of the original post
   
2. a comment which ignores the writing to make a statement only addressing the color scheme of the chapter idea... examples of this could be: "Hey nice color scheme," or "I like that color scheme," or the contrary negatives. I would caveat that a comment addressing only the color scheme could be moved from my categorization of bad into a neutral position...or even positive...if that is something the OP directly asked for input on
   
3. a comment stating only "I dont like this," or "this doesnt work," or something similar, with no justifications or qualifications (see (a) above)
   
4. any comment attacking the op author, or any other member of these forums, or that violates the forum policies (I know this should be well understood, but hey, it seems to be appropriate to emphasize from time to time)
   

 

My reasoning for these (among others I suspect we could identify) is firstly that this section of the forum primarilly focuses on and emphasizes fluff...not only that, but prose as well. This means that the writing is the most important...getting a clear idea across to the reader, telling the story of the chapter, etc...not the gaming rules for the chapter and not the painting or modeling aspect. Certainly these are also important to some people's enjoyment of the overall universe/hobby, but I would argue there are other areas to address those concerns. For my part...I wince to myself when I see my name attached to C&C like this...I know I have done it before, and I am sure I will probably do it again...but I still see the idea of Good C&C being a comment that helps the OP understand/develop/present his chapter concept more clearly or qualifies why/what the respondant likes about the idea..and Bad C&C offers nothing, or just attacks the idea (call this blind hate of the idea?).

 

Not trying to detract from what you started here Shinzaren...not at all, so feel free to redirect back onto what you have worked out already here.

 

still, I would be interested in any other thoughts on this idea from you or anyone else...

[Shinzaren]

Alrighty, Ghost, I will turn this one over to you. If I draw up a piece of bad writing and rope Ace in to whip up a bad color scheme, do you think you can hammer out a bad C&C alongside some explanations of what doesn't work? When you are done I will edit it into the OP, with full credit of course. I am only asking because you have a clear idea of what you are looking for, and you seem to definitely be passionate about helping others avoid it.

[Ace Debonair]

Right then. Looking at it as I would any other IA.

Hello, DIY Guide, Octaguide, yada yada. I'll skip this bit because if you haven't read these you have work to do. :)

The Marines Benevolent.

Origins:

The Marines Benevolent are a second founding chapter of Space Marines, split from the geneseed of the Ultramarines.

It's my understanding the Sceond Founding is considered off-limits for DIY Chapters; most of the Chapters there are accounted for, and there's precious little you can do with a second founding chapter that you can't do with the 3rd founding. Does being part of the Second founding effect the character of the Chapter that any other founding wouldn't?

Following the aftermath of the Great Heresy, the Marines Benevolent were created to both divide the power of the Primarch lead legions, and to spread the coverage of Space Marines throughout the galaxy. Sent by their Primarch far from both Macragge and Holy Terra, the Marines Benevolent took up residence in a cluster of stars known as Firteras. This small grouping contained only one semi-habitable world, but stood as a bulwark system between a pair of Ork Kingdoms and a Necron Tomb world.

Necrons didn't officially exist until much later, as per current information. Whilst this might be changing soon, what with the new Necron codex and so on, I'd advise playing safe and just sticking with the Orks. Most chapters would potentially struggle with one Ork empire, and taking on twice as many plus necrons could be a bit MISS.

The changes overworked the adrenalin centers of the brain, leading to a near constant state of frenzy, but also lead to a heightened state of intellect. Physically they began to develop longer fang-like teeth, and distinct facial ridges, marking these Sun Touched for all to see. Though half mad with rage and adrenalin, the heightened intellect and neural processing made them incredibly gifted, though hard to control, scientists and apothecaries.

...Klingons? Tell me I'm getting the wrong mental picture here. :cuss

Those pastie-headed xenos have no place in 40K, except as a greasy smear on the tank tracks. ;)

Desperate to cure themselves, the Marines Benevolent hid their curse, and assigned their now mad geniuses to the task of repairing the damage. Physically restrained and waited on by servitors who served as their hands, these marines made several startling and outright dangerous discoveries. Advancements were made in weaponry, armor, tactics, and more; the mad brains serving as near prophets in their blinding comprehension. Though still in the initial days of the Imperium of Man, the Marines Benevolent knew these creations were dangerous, and developed all of them in utmost secrecy, forcing their Techmarines to cast off any dual oaths to the Machine God. These advances revolutionized how the Marines Benevolent waged war, and within a decade, the Orks and Necrons had been completely eliminated, reduced to ash by the terrifying products of these deranged minds.

So now your chapter has better tech than everyone else?

That's definitely going to be uncool with the AdMech - they tend to covet technology and are presumably pretty heavily involved in supplying your chapter, like the rest of us.

Still however, a cure eluded them, and more and more Sun Touched appeared in each recruitment. Finally deciding that their homeworld could no longer serve, they abandoned Firteras. The damage had already been done however, and with each batch of recruits, new Sun Touched emerged. Deciding to utilize them the only way they could, the Marines Benevolent kept them chained in the deepest decks of their Battle Barges, waited on by Servitors and watched over by marines trained to decipher the babble of their heightened minds. The fevered inventions produced in the Chapter's forges make them terrifying opponents, and their dedication to eventually curing their flaw has made them fanatics. These two traits make the Marines Benevolent terrible enemies to face in battle, and if they are capable of curing their affliction, this new and wondrous technology could be a great asset to the Imperium, though the Marines Benevolent have sworn to take their curse and its twisted fruits must be born by them alone until they can repair the damage caused and stand before their Primarch pure and whole.

A novel idea, but honestly, the whole 'crazy people made this so nobody can know it exists' angle really doesn't make sense. There is no logic to it, and nothing to suggest your marines would take such a course of action unless I've misjudged and they're all insane.

How does your chapter interact with others? Does anyone else notice the suspiciously dangersou new gun that brother Geoff is carrying?

If the geneseed's mutated, wouldn't the AdMech notice, giving them further reason to poke around and get involved?

The Mad Scientist approach is certainly novel, but it's going to take some work to make it fit perfectly.

Stick at it, though, and there's no reason that it wouldn't - it's just a case of plugging all the gaps and adding/removing things so your marine's actions make sense.

There we go: Ace-brand nice guy C&C. :P

Save the pleasantries until the end (finish on a high note! B) ) and couch some of the critical stuff in terrible humour. :tu:

Also, you don't always have to crit everything on the first run-through. Leaving room for others to contribute is, in my experience, ALWAYS a good idea. That and an author might be more amenable to a dozen small changes over time than throwing away 90% of their work immediately and returning to the drawing board.

I think we could argue that bad C&C could fall into a couple categories (not sure i can name the categories really, but hey, thats what discussion like this is about no?)

i would argue that the following comment types could be identified as bad C&C (not all inclusive, but illustrative):

1. a comment which ignores the content and/or format of the original post
   
2. a comment which ignores the writing to make a statement only addressing the color scheme of the chapter idea... examples of this could be: "Hey nice color scheme," or "I like that color scheme," or the contrary negatives. I would caveat that a comment addressing only the color scheme could be moved from my categorization of bad into a neutral position...or even positive...if that is something the OP directly asked for input on
   
3. a comment stating only "I dont like this," or "this doesnt work," or something similar, with no justifications or qualifications (see (a) above)
   
4. any comment attacking the op author, or any other member of these forums, or that violates the forum policies (I know this should be well understood, but hey, it seems to be appropriate to emphasize from time to time)
   

So... my popping up and quizzing people on colourschemes/making random colour suggestions is bad C&C if the OP doesn't specifically request it?

Is that still true if they have no colours already and don't really know what they want in a scheme?

EDIT:

rope Ace in to whip up a bad color scheme

I'm amused by the way the everyone is portraying me as rubbish with the colours these days, especially since I get very few actual complaints. :tu:

As requested, one unspeakably bad scheme.

[Shinzaren]

You misunderstand Ace haha. I am VERY happy with your colors. You have done both of mine and done them extremely well! I just know you that you have a firm grasp on what makes a GOOD scheme, and would therefore be able to provide a properly BAD scheme. All of mine are bad, but because you know what GOOD is, you can really nail the BAD. Make sense? You've always gone the extra mile to make great schemes, and I really appreciate the effort you put into them. I believe you have the mad bit done because...well... you portray yourself as a bit mad haha :sweat: But in a good way! I promise!

[Reyner]

Tis true, he does them well.

[Ace Debonair]

Hmm. I didn't actually mean that to sound like a complaint.

Consider that a fine example of a dismally bad attempt at humour.:lol:

 

Emperor help me, after looking at my intentionally bad colour scheme, I'm starting to think it might actually work if the yellow was more subdued.

:rolleyes: Bad. Idea. Get. Out. Of. My. Head. :lol:

[GhostLegion]

Emperor help me, after looking at my intentionally bad colour scheme, I'm starting to think it might actually work if the yellow was more subdued.

;) Bad. Idea. Get. Out. Of. My. Head. :wallbash:

actually...youre not the only one there...i had a fluff start going for that scheme already too.....along with the unfortunate idea that shoulder pad rims indicate company.. :ermm:

 

shinzaren, im still trying to figure out how to best address the idea of bad C&C. unfortunately it keeps falling into the "we know it when we see it" category....which is decidedly hard to write...

[NightrawenII]

I'm not even sure where to start for a bad C&C. I would probably just be belligerent and mean, and that's not fun for anyone. Otherwise, I am open to suggestions on what everyone considers a bad response.

shinzaren, im still trying to figure out how to best address the idea of bad C&C. unfortunately it keeps falling into the "we know it when we see it" category....which is decidedly hard to write...

No one is better for devil's work than the devil himself.... :geek:

 

Hello here, it seems like you missed the Guide to DIY and Octaguide on your way here. I suggest you to read them, it will be for betterment of us all. ^_^

 

The Marines Benevolent

- Benevolent...? Seriously!?! - In grim darkness of the far future there is only war and laughter of bloodthirsty gods. - Space marines are genetically-engineered killing-machines serving fascist theocracy, they are not Jedi knights in any form, way or shape. If you want benevolent and nice faction, go and play Tau, really.

 

The Marines Benevolent are a second founding chapter of Space Marines, split from the geneseed of the Ultramarines.

- No, full stop. 2nd Founding is entirely realm of Games Workshop.

 

Sent by their Primarch far from both Macragge and Holy Terra, the Marines Benevolent took up residence in a cluster of stars known as Firteras.

- Where? This is just talking for the sake of talking, but not saying anything. 'Far from Terra and Macragge' is practically aplicable to 80% of Imperium. At least tell me, which Segmentum the Firteras is.

- Btw, what is Firteras? It's strange name. <_<

 

This small grouping contained only one semi-habitable world, but stood as a bulwark system between a pair of Ork Kingdoms and a Necron Tomb world.

- What's semi-habitable? Your marines need to recruit fresh warriors.

- Eh, no. Necron are recent threat. Place here a Eldar Craftworld and you will be fine.

 

The earliest engagements of the Chapter would see it battling these three-fold enemies, perfecting their tactics of baiting and destroying their enemies in clever traps and feigned withdrawals.

- Wait, three-fold enemies??? Where and who is the third one? :mellow:

 

Tragedy would strike the Chapter however, as the Firteras system's main star emitted a radiation unseen and undetected by the Imperium's science.

- Let me guess. The main component of that star was phlebotinum?

 

Physically they began to develop longer fang-like teeth, and distinct facial ridges, marking these Sun Touched for all to see.

- Oh, I see. I was wrong before, this is another space opera, that's for sure. :)

- Btw, you said 'radiation unseen and undetected by the Imperium's science'. How do they know now?

 

Physically restrained and waited on by servitors who served as their hands, these marines made several startling and outright dangerous discoveries. Advancements were made in weaponry, armor, tactics, and more; the mad brains serving as near prophets in their blinding comprehension.

- Okey, not just Applied Phlebotinum but now even McGuffin? Like seriously dude, where this will lead...?

 

These advances revolutionized how the Marines Benevolent waged war, and within a decade, the Orks and Necrons had been completely eliminated, reduced to ash by the terrifying products of these deranged minds.

- Why did I even bother to ask? :rolleyes:

 

The fevered inventions produced in the Chapter's forges make them terrifying opponents, and their dedication to eventually curing their flaw has made them fanatics. These two traits make the Marines Benevolent terrible enemies to face in battle, and if they are capable of curing their affliction, this new and wondrous technology could be a great asset to the Imperium, though the Marines Benevolent have sworn to take their curse and its twisted fruits must be born by them alone until they can repair the damage caused and stand before their Primarch pure and whole.

- Let me guess, you did see all these shiney and fancy toys in the new Grey Knights codex and want to use them, right? Sorry bro, but it doesn't work. Your Chapter reeks of teh awesome and to be honest it's foul and unpleasant stench.

 

Savvy?

[Brother Tyler]

Some interesting issues have been presented here.

 

The example feedback based on types, however, misses one very important issue that is of supreme importance.

 

This issue relates to the fluff (or background, or lore) and has two important elements.

 

First is how the background material is malleable, filled with numerous holes, contradictions, hyperbole, varying interpretations, etc. More importantly, it is subject to being changed by Games Workshop.

 

Second is how we often confuse our own interpretation of the background material for gospel fact, and a fairly common occurrence is for one or more players to portray their interpretation of the material as correct and for this to be done often enough to the point where they and others actually begin to believe the interpretation.

 

Two examples are perfectly illustrated in the example feedback portions on the Marines Benevolent. The first one I see is the "issue" with determining that the Second Founding is a concern, and the second is about the use of a Necron tomb world.

 

With regard to the Second Founding, many of us, myself included, have been guilty of steering players clear of using that founding as the older material appeared to be definitive. Where it presented holes, the descriptions appeared to provide for the "unknown" (or un-named) chapters that may have existed from that founding no longer existing in the present day (nominally 999.M40, but that's always open to debate <_< ). The common perception is that DIYs are created "in the now." However, this is simply an assumption, and I've seen at least one recent example where a player has created a Second Founding chapter within the older fluff (e.g., the Apocrypha of Skaros, if I remember correctly), filling in one of the holes allowed by the official material with his DIY chapter. Some players reflexively view the use of the Second Founding as off limits based on either their own interpretation of the background material or their acceptance of the common view, even though the official material does have holes that players might exploit while being fully compliant with the background. In addition, recent changes indicate that the number of chapters created during the Second Founding will be increased significantly, up to the multiple hundreds in number. This has been pre-saged in Codex: Grey Knights and in ADB's writings and posts. Unless GW provides us with a definitive answer on all of the "new" Chapters that this change might bring, there will be plenty of openings for players to create a Second Founding chapter.

 

As far as the Necron tomb world goes, we have a couple of things. First is the context of the importance of the Necron tomb world. I inferred from the wording of the description provided that the world was known to be a tomb world when the new chapter chose its homeworld. Realistically this is possible based on the following passage from page 8 of Codex: Necrons: "The very first Tomb Worlds revived to see the Great Crusade sweep across the galaxy." Nothing definitive is given on the fate of these worlds, but there is official sanction for a chapter created in the Second Founding to be near a Necron Tomb World. Maybe the Tomb World was wiped out by the Great Crusade, or perhaps the nascent chapter performed the deed, or even someone else. There have been several momentous occasions in the history of the Imperium when records were lost, so it's possible that the Imperium has faced the Necron threat at one or more times in the past without the modern Imperium knowing of this fact. Or perhaps the forces of the Imperium that may have participated in such a hypothetical campaign may have lost, with the nature of their opposition never being revealed to the Imperium at large. Alternately, the Tomb World may have revived slowly, merely observing the events of the day while remaining quiet and observing in order to husband its resources. Another alternative is that the Tomb World wasn't known to be a Tomb World until much later. This occasion may have been fairly recently, or it may have occurred prior to one of those times when records were lost, as I mentioned previously.

 

What we often see when situations like those illustrated above arise is members will suggest changing the "problem" areas so that the material is more palatable within their perceived interpretation of the background material (and this might be right, wrong, or indifferent). Another form of feedback provided might be for a player to identify the various points of the background material in order to clearly identify what may or may not be allowed while also identifying the areas where there is (often considerable) room for interpretation. The approach taken here may be to refine the "problem" area so that it reconciles with the official background material, even if it does so by exploiting a gap. Members that are prone to imposing/asserting/enforcing a more strict interpretation of the background material aren't likely to participate in this type of feedback; so we typically see this tack taken by those that are a bit more open.

 

I think the point I'm getting at (and I didn't have it clearly articulated in my mind until I began composing the last sentence in the paragraph above) is that the article really ought to be expanded to cover another variation. The current article includes categorization by experience level, confidence level, and approach. What I'm proposing is also a category that identifies a member's approach to interpreting background material (perhaps "rigid" and "flexible" are decent neutral descriptors).

[Shinzaren]

Excellent points Brother Tyler. As I view myself as a much more rigid in my adherence to published background, I didn't even see this issue until you said something. I agree 100% that people's viewpoints color their responses, myself more than any other, and I will try to edit in a section on what you have suggested. Sadly it will probably have to wait until later in the week, as finals are coming up and I will be very busy. However, if you would like to take a crack at writing the guide to this part, or anyone else would, feel free to PM what you have and I will edit it in. Unless you want me to just Copy+Paste your response here right in :lol: Either way, we'll get something in there soon about viewpoints on the background coloring responses.