So... Dreadknights.

[spartan249]

I've been stewing over the GK codex, and no matter what I do, I can't dispel my prejudice against the Dreadknight both as a weapon platform and as an assault unit. No matter how I think of it, I see it as much too expensive for essentially any POU. Every time I've seen it, it has died horrendously fast or done absolutely nothing more then killing a couple of terminators or a combat squad or a rhino.

 

I am determined to give it a chance to redeem itself, as I do not just throw away tools at my disposal without first knowing that it will serve no good for anything.

 

So, first off, the POU of disruptor. For use in this fashion, we're looking at 205 points of jumping joy. In order to maximize the clearing power of the DreadCarriage, it needs a Heavy Incinerator to increase the reach and threat to units in cover, so we're now looking at 235 points. I don't know if I'm comfortable with paying HQ level points for a single model that is vulnerable to quite a few weapons with very little reprieve available (MCs have a much tougher time claiming cover, and that 5+ invul is a laugh).

 

Second, the POU of counter-charger. This would be for a more defensive GK army, perhaps one based heavily on the use of cover. In this case, a teleporter wouldn't be necessary, so the price is much lower. To maximize the assault power, I'd give it a Hammer to lay the smackdown on everything and a Heavy Psycannon to contribute firepower when not fulfilling its main function, so now it's 180 points. My main beef with this build is the low number of attacks, the vulnerability to power fists/hammers (again, 5+ invul = lol), and the sheer size of the model, making claiming cover much more difficult. I think that, rather then spending points on this guy, you could spend the points to exponentially increase your level of firepower with perhaps a Purgation squad with 4 psycannons for the same price, or more points to go towards simply having more knights so that you either have less charging you or have more bodies to soak the charge, then counter-charge with weight of bodies.

 

I don't see any other POUs the DreadCarriage can be employed in. So, am I correct in holding these beliefs, or can I be proven wrong in my assertion that this unit is nigh on useless, and that we have been given another useless and ugly model/ruleset?

[Something Wycked]

Any unit from any codex will be useless if you cannot envision a use for it :)

 

I rune mine at 260 points - Personal Teleporter, Greatsword, Heavy Incinerator. And I always pair them with Interceptors. I bring no "front line" units like Terminators, Paladins, Purifiers, DCA/Crusader Henchmen, etc. My PTGSHIDK's and their paired Interceptors are my highly mobile front line.

[spartan249]

That's a lot of points you spend on that, and I'm not sure that such a price tag is warranted for such a fragile platform. Do you play it that way because you see it as the best way to fill that POU, because you just like how the model looks (...), or because you made it like that and can't go with other configurations without breaking the model up? I can only see it as a liability when compared to units like Interceptors, who bring more durability in terms of wounds and ease of claiming cover, more offensive capability in the shooting phase and against certain enemies in assault, or DCA, who can cost as much or much less then the DK, yet outperform it in assault by a huge margin.

[maturin]

What's a POU? From the way you're using it I'm assuming....purpose of unit?

[Cerrik]

I run my DKs just like Wycked does... The teleporter, Great Sword and Incinerator... yes it's a point sink.... but, I run them in a Draigowing list so really eating 260 points each is not that bad... I use them as big nasty surprises... most opponents freak when something that big jumps up in their face and drops a flame template with that kind of range. The flamer is good for bodies, the GS is good for dealing with MCs or vehicles. Its a way to get a little more speed out of my Draigowing. They work beautifully as my opponents either try to send everything at them, allowing my Paladins to slog up the field laying down massive amounts of fire, or they get ignored so my opponent can lay into my Paladins... this leaves the DKs free to wreck face in my opponent's back field. So far, everyone I've faced with the exception of other GK players and any IG players(like 1) that I have faced, has been scared by me deploying Paladins and DKs...

 

Sometimes, I'll agree it's hit and miss... and yes, it's HQ level points. But, I've tried bringing Dreads with my Draigowing and it doesn't work... they work great with my Purifiers but not the Paladins (My experience)

[spartan249]

Alright, so it's being used to overwhelm people who either forget how to prioritize targets, don't bring a good weapon selection, or are unprepared for counter-charging in an offensive POU. I suppose it'll work in such a fashion sometimes. Since I'm not running (and don't plan to) Paladins or Terminators and going offensive advance, I won't be planning on buying any DKs.

 

I'll get some people to try this tactic out against me and see how effective this strategy is first hand, though I'm not holding much hope for it at the moment.

 

and POU = Philosophy of Use, although Purpose of Unit is also correct.

[Something Wycked]

I call my GK philosophy "zero day." The purpose is to identify the opponent's weak points and rapidly exploit them. Depending on the mission and the opponent, I will use TGS to give either Scoring or Scouts to my Interceptor/DK units; if it is a kill-oriented mission, they're getting Scouts. Depending on deployment zones, deployment shapes, the 12" Scout move and the 12" first turn move, I stand a decent chance of getting a first turn assault with 1-3 units, and those that were non-Scouts can easily Jump/Shunt within range to support the first strikers. Worst case scenario, I can open fire with all but ~400-700 points of the army (Strikes and GKGM) on the schwerpunkt, my chosen target in my opponent's formation, while maintaining enough distance to not be charged in return.

 

The PT gives the DK amazing mobility and makes it pair flawlessly with Interceptors.

The GS makes the DK a face wrecker in CC; the normal outcome 80-90% of the time is 3 hits, 3 wounds, 3 kills.

The HI has the potential to torch whole units of non-MEQ at a time since it always receives perfect positioning over the largest number of models, ignores 4+ armor and all cover saves, and most often it is wounding at 2+.

 

Expensive? Yes. Vulnerable? Yes. But much less so when they are paired with a full unit of Interceptors.

 

Take the example of a Tactical squad with, say, a Combi-Melta, Meltagun and non-Heavy Bolter heavy weapon. When that squad is faced with Interceptors and a Dreadknight, who do they shoot at? Sure, the CM, MG, and heavy stand a decent chance of inflicting 3 wounds on the DK, but then all of their Bolter fire is likely wasted. Or they could inflict pretty serious casualties on the Interceptors- unless the Interceptors have cover.

 

It forces my opponents to make target priority decisions, and my job is to make sure that any decision they make is the wrong one :) If they savage the DK, my target becomes units most dangerous to the Interceptors. If they savage the Interceptors, my target becomes units most dangerous to the DK. The goal is to remove my opponent's ability to harm my army.

 

The most interesting games for me are the ones where my opponent has completely balanced units that are effective against both MC's and MEQ; that is when my target priority decisions become difficult, as every unit is effectively as lethal as any other. The downside, for the opponent, is that generally the units have a lower top-end damage potential against any of my units.

[Valerian]

I call my GK philosophy "zero day." The purpose is to identify the opponent's weak points and rapidly exploit them. Depending on the mission and the opponent, I will use TGS to give either Scoring or Scouts to my Interceptor/DK units; if it is a kill-oriented mission, they're getting Scouts. Depending on deployment zones, deployment shapes, the 12" Scout move and the 12" first turn move, I stand a decent chance of getting a first turn assault with 1-3 units, and those that were non-Scouts can easily Jump/Shunt within range to support the first strikers. Worst case scenario, I can open fire with all but ~400-700 points of the army (Strikes and GKGM) on the schwerpunkt, my chosen target in my opponent's formation, while maintaining enough distance to not be charged in return.

 

The PT gives the DK amazing mobility and makes it pair flawlessly with Interceptors.

The GS makes the DK a face wrecker in CC; the normal outcome 80-90% of the time is 3 hits, 3 wounds, 3 kills.

The HI has the potential to torch whole units of non-MEQ at a time since it always receives perfect positioning over the largest number of models, ignores 4+ armor and all cover saves, and most often it is wounding at 2+.

 

Expensive? Yes. Vulnerable? Yes. But much less so when they are paired with a full unit of Interceptors.

 

Just to reemphasize Wycked's point, the Dreadknight-Interceptor combination works in unison as a team; don't think of them as discrete units, but as a highly mobile team that can isolate and target specific enemy units by ranged firepower and/or close combat.

 

Take the example of a Tactical squad with, say, a Combi-Melta, Meltagun and non-Heavy Bolter heavy weapon. When that squad is faced with Interceptors and a Dreadknight, who do they shoot at? Sure, the CM, MG, and heavy stand a decent chance of inflicting 3 wounds on the DK, but then all of their Bolter fire is likely wasted. Or they could inflict pretty serious casualties on the Interceptors- unless the Interceptors have cover.

 

Additionally, consider that the Dreadknight-Interceptor team is able to position themselves precisely, such that they stay out of the 18" effective range of said enemy tactical squad (12" for Rapid Fire and both Melta Weapons plus 6" for Movement), while losing zero effectiveness to their own shooting. Or, alternately, can simply move close and shoot and assault, and avoid the Tactical Squads firepower completely.

 

Valerian

[Hellios]

Additionally, consider that the Dreadknight-Interceptor team is able to position themselves precisely, such that they stay out of the 18" effective range of said enemy tactical squad (12" for Rapid Fire and both Melta Weapons plus 6" for Movement), while losing zero effectiveness to their own shooting. Or, alternately, can simply move close and shoot and assault, and avoid the Tactical Squads firepower completely.

 

Valerian

 

People have made good points but also consider what you play against in your area. I've heard of Xenos armies that play in a different manner to marines... If for example you play against DE a lot you may find they don't have much of an issue with target priority... DK will go pop and they will treat interceptors pretty much like they would any other marines. Although DE do not enjoy certain aspects of the GK list to be sure...

[spartan249]

@Wycked

I need more people like you in my scene, cause the amount of thought you put into your strategy would probably crush all the other GK players' considerations through sheer weight. Honestly, I want to see how well this would fare against my own strategy and GK tactics and how differently games go when we both face the same opponent. We are exact opposites in basic strategy, and I think that's a good thing, cause I remember seeing you formulate your list in tandem with me, and it looked similar, but very different where it mattered.

 

In any case, I'll venture to guess that it works well for you. I don't think it would work well for me because, honestly, I've been terrorizing my meta with armor hell, and people have finally started adjusting and bringing weapons good against armor in greater numbers. As you and I know, such weapons cut right through DKs like nobody's business. In addition to that, the offensive application looks much better then a defensive one, as the offensive POU forces the opponent to scrounge up answers while the defensive POU has to act as the answer, and honestly, the DK causes more problems then it solves, IMO.

[Something Wycked]

:yes: thanks for the compliments, spartan, I live for tactics :) Where do you play, by the way? I'm also in SoCal. Game Empire? Pair-a-dice? I stick mostly to friends' houses- mostly through embarassment over my unpainted models ;) I'm a fighter, not a painter!

 

You're right that DK's are very vulnerable; they have difficulty gaining a cover save and a handful of anti-tank weapons can destroy them. They can be serious face wreckers (mostly against MC's and vehicles), but they require finesse to use appropriately- if there isn't much LoS blocking terrain, you almost have to massage them into the right location so they can do their damage without being shot down. The only time you can really march them down the board is if you have vehicles or Paladins to disrupt the target priority for the big guns (credit to nurglez, iirc, for trying this out.)

[nurglez]

I really like my DK's, since I started playing Draigo wing, my 1500 point force hasn't changed at all. Draigo, 5 paladins, 10 paladins and a DK with greatsword, heavy incinerator and teleporter. While my DK costs 260 points, it is also the cheapest unit in my army.....

 

I have 2 DK's, often running one as above and one with just a heavy incinerator. These guys are over costed in my opinion, but they also fill a gap in my list, providing speed (with the teleporter) and anti horde/cover save weaponry (heavy incinerator).

 

Due to being so tall, they are very hard to gain cover saves, they are also big tempting targets, and can easily provide cover to things behind them. Due to their high toughness they can "tank" most units quite well, and while a 5++ isn't brilliant, it's better then nothing. and with a bit of luck can survive quite well.

 

I have only ever used them in 3 configurations.

heavy incinerator, great sword, teleporter

heavy incinerator, teleporter

heavy incinerator.

 

The great sword is awesome, almost always provides more damage then the pair of fists, and remember you can use it to reroll to hit vs vehicles. The heavy incinerator is the only ranged weapon I would consider using, and is just awesome if used right. At the uk throne of skulls in october I used them to good effect vs a scout heavy force that was sat around in cover, my regular weapons would have bounced off their 2/3+ cover save :D

 

Basically, my only experience is using them alongside my Paladin force, as they fit the feel I have for my force. As they are ws5 they are paladins to me, and as they aren't equipped with terminator armour, they can actually sweeping advance too!

 

I suggest trying them out if you can, many people don't like using them, but they fit my playing style and I love the look of them too :D

 

p.s. I also have a allergy to using uber cost effective units that everyone else uses (oblits, lash, psyrifle dreads, purifiers etc), and as I bought myself 2 to help keep my model count low (17 models at 1500 points :) ) I shall keep using them, and don't see my 1500 point list changing at all :D

[spartan249]

I'll take it from the responses so far that I was not mistaken to think that the DK is a little garishly priced. I think I'll pass on it, as I'm more of a fan of number of bodies/guns.

 

@Wycked

I usually play at the LA Battle Bunker and I sometimes play at the Realm in Brea. Unfortunately, at this point, my GKs are only 3/8ths complete in terms of non-proxied models (I'm slowing getting there though, should be done with them in about a month), and painting the white helmets has been quite a chore for someone who's been drybrushing black and calling it a day.

[Aidoneus]

I'm a bit different from others, it seems. I run mine with just an incinerator (though the model has a sword 'cause it's pretty). The incinerator is wonderful, especially against non-marines (we have a good mix of races where I am). Mostly though, I want it to get shot. The Dreadknight is my great big bullet magnet. At only 160pts it's actually pretty cheap for a 4-wound T6 terminator, so it can take a pretty hefty beating for its points value. That means the enemy isn't shooting at the rest of my army, which is mostly made up of MEQs, which are way better offensively but not as resilient.

 

Does my Dreadknight made a huge, game-changing impact? Sometimes. Not often. Is it worth including in the list because it's scary enough to draw fire from everything else? Always! ;)

 

P.S. Oh yeah, and the one time I had a Bloodthirster hit my lines, this guy was all that saved me.

[spartan249]

Thanks for weighing in. I'll keep that in mind, though I think I have enough high cost models in my army to attract bullets by themselves without needing a huge carriage doing the same thing.

 

The few times I have fought daemons have only really been a slaughterfest for me, and I did get charged by a bloodthirster once in that time. I'm surprised to hear that the DK was the only thing that could take it, as I handled it no problem. Yes, he wiped a 5 guy purifier squad, but the resulting shooting really chopped it down to size. I really think daemon lists have no choice but to screw the pooch when facing GKs, even more so then last edition. Quite a travesty IMO, as it should be a fair battle.

[Aidoneus]

Thanks for weighing in. I'll keep that in mind, though I think I have enough high cost models in my army to attract bullets by themselves without needing a huge carriage doing the same thing.

Hence the beauty of letting a relatively low-cost, high-resilience model absorb those shots instead.

 

The few times I have fought daemons have only really been a slaughterfest for me, and I did get charged by a bloodthirster once in that time. I'm surprised to hear that the DK was the only thing that could take it, as I handled it no problem. Yes, he wiped a 5 guy purifier squad, but the resulting shooting really chopped it down to size. I really think daemon lists have no choice but to screw the pooch when facing GKs, even more so then last edition. Quite a travesty IMO, as it should be a fair battle.

Oh, I totally agree with you about Daemons in general. I can't remember the last time I lost to Daemons, and I don't think I ever have with my GKs. In this case though, I was half of a 1500+1500 vs 3000pt team along with a BA player. His list was entirely assault-oriented, so my shooting couldn't quite keep up with everything that was raining down on us. Especially since this Daemon player knew what he was doing, and had a tough list made up of the Bloodthirster, lots of Bloodcrushers, Tzeentchen Greater Daemons, Plaguebearers, and a couple other big MCs (can't remember, as this was back in June).

 

Also, the reason I needed the Dreadknight was for Dark Banishing. He actually never even swung at that Bloodthirster, but he came in and negated the 2++ against my force halberds. In a list without a libbie or Coteaz, it's really nice having something around that can use dark banishing.

[spartan249]

The thing with the DK in the context of my army list though is that my guys are rocking 3+ cover (2+ if shrouding goes off), and it's really keeping casualties to a minimum with the list to a shocking degree (Most games, I'm losing 5 or 6 models out of 40 while my opponents almost always get pushed to being nearly tabled). In such a list, I think having a big mamma jamma in the back costing me some storm bolters and psycannons in points brings more cost then benefit. This is just my opinion, of course, and is subject to change as my list becomes more solidified.

 

I think I'll try adding in an Incinerator Dreadknight at 2500 points just for the cover defeating capabilities, as Eldar Pathfinders have been a major pain in the rear for me.

[Aidoneus]

I think you bring up a good point in that the utility of the dreadknight, or any unit, obviously depends on the rest of the list. If you're playing the cover-save-shenangians game, then the dreadknight probably won't do much for you, for the reasons you stated. That doesn't make it a bad unit though; just one that doesn't synergize with your particular playstyle. On the other hand, I'll use cover when it's useful, but I hardly base my strategy on it. I mostly focus on pouring walls of bullets into people, with enough mobility to dictate when and where any combats eventually end up happening. I also make heavy use of deep-strike to insure I get the first shot in, as well as set up flanks to create areas of local superiority. While this makes my army wonderful at getting around the board and killing stuff, it does leave me more vulnerable to return fire, which is why I like having the big, scary bullet-magnet around.