Should Paladins Be Used In 1850pts Game?

[Big Rob]

I was thinking of using about 7 Paladins in a 1850 point army. What do you thinks? Here is the army list.

 

Grand Master

7 Paladins (1 Apothecary)

8 Purifiers

10 Strike Squad

Rhino

10 Strike Squad

Rhino

Land Raider

Autocannon Dreadnought

[Lady_Canoness]

Make it a Land Raider Crusader and you are riding all your terminators into battle in style :lol:

 

Do it.

[The Holy Heretic]

I'd say that paladin nr. 6&7 are a waste along with the apothecary, the first 5 unlocks 2 psycannon (which is the important part), and anything that can deal with terminator armour also negates FNP, so those points are basically a waste too - those 185 points can buy you quite a lot of fancy stuff. So basically, anything that can deal with 5 paladins can also deal with 7 FNP paladins. So either do a full deathstar of 10 pallies with all the trimmings or be sensible :lol:

[breng77]

I agree on the take 5 paladins or 10. The points saved can do things like buy equipment for your GM, get a ride (and additional guys and equipment for your Purifiers). At 1850 you can get

 

GM Psycannon

 

Inquisitor (TDA, Psycannon)

 

5 Paladins (2 Psycannons)

 

10 Purifiers (2 Psycannons, 2 Incinerators, Hammer) Rhino

 

2 x 10 Strikes (2 Psycannons, hammer) Rhino

 

Land Raider

 

Dread (2 TLAC psybolts)

 

 

If you want to slog the terminators (or Deep strike) You can drop the Purifier Rhino (and stick them in the land Raider, though honestly the LR is not a good fit IMO), and use the points to allocate the Paladins (Though you don't need to master craft, just do Sword, Halberd, Psycannon/halberd,, Hammer, Psycannon/hammeror sword)

[Archon_77]

Also, be aware that it has been argued that redundacy is a good thing in your lists. That single lonely dreadnought screams "kill me first", and your landraider does the same. I'd swap out one for the other personally. I also echo the thought that 7 paladins do little more than 5 would. I wonder, what purpose do you want the paladins to fill in this list? You seem to be assaulty enough with your purifiers, and the the GKSS in their rides are good for scoring.

[Big Rob]

Thanks for all the information.

I had a discussion about Paladins in my Grey Knight army with my gaming friends.

First questions was Paladins or GK terminators then

Then Land Raider or Dreads

So I answered all the question but the Paladins

Are Paladins worth taking in a tournament setting at 1850 points?

[Crynn]

Thanks for all the information.

I had a discussion about Paladins in my Grey Knight army with my gaming friends.

First questions was Paladins or GK terminators then

Then Land Raider or Dreads

So I answered all the question but the Paladins

Are Paladins worth taking in a tournament setting at 1850 points?

 

terminators are mathmatically the worst troop choice in the codex. Paladins are a far better choice either using draigo or a grand master to make them scoring. Paladins need support though so make sure you have other capable units dreads over land raiders but it depends what you put in the raider. Dreads you will need to stun or destroy transports so that the paladins can catch them so I would suggest a couple.

 

I have a thread on this forum quick uses an army with 10 paladins a land raider and a dread, maybe you should take look at it. It's called something along the lines of 'grey knights 1750pt army on a winning streak'.

 

Regards,

Crynn

[number6]

terminators are mathmatically the worst troop choice in the codex.

Brother-Captain 6 does not understand. :P They are worth every point you spend on them. They're affordable terminators as Troops. The only way to get "superior" Paladins as Troops is by building a special army around Draigo. In cases where one doesn't want to run a Draigo list -- you know, to like, take advantage of the gazillion other viable builds from the codex -- or where the points level is too small to afford Draigo, basic GK termies are perfectly valid and valuable units.

[Morollan]

I'd say that paladin nr. 6&7 are a waste along with the apothecary, the first 5 unlocks 2 psycannon (which is the important part), and anything that can deal with terminator armour also negates FNP, so those points are basically a waste too

 

The point of the Apothecary is not to deal with wounds that ignore the Terminator Armour. It's to deal with weight of attacks/volume of fire where those annoying 1's keep cropping up. Combined with wound allocation shenanigans, the Apothecary makes Paladins immune to small arms fire to all intents and purposes.

 

Now, you can argue all you want about whether the points for the Apothecary are value for money but that's another issue.

[Gentlemanloser]

Brother-Captain 6 does not understand. sad.gif They are worth every point you spend on them. They're affordable terminators as Troops. The only way to get "superior" Paladins as Troops is by building a special army around Draigo. In cases where one doesn't want to run a Draigo list -- you know, to like, take advantage of the gazillion other viable builds from the codex -- or where the points level is too small to afford Draigo, basic GK termies are perfectly valid and valuable units.

 

Not wholey accurate Number6. ^_^

 

If you're already including a GKGM, then your Pallies can be scoring, for no extra cost.

 

As for Pallies over GKT, consider this;

 

10 GKT, 2 Psy: 450 points.

 

5 Paladins, 2 Psy: 315

5 Strike, 1 Psy: 110

 

This gives you the same amount of TDA Wounds (ID aside obviously), more Psycannon shots, Holocaust and Warp Quake and 5 extra PA wounds, for the loss of 4 attacks in CC. For 25 points cheaper.

 

Or you could equal the cost, add a BHB and equal the CC PW attacks (with some extra morenal ones) and lose a SB. Which is no big loss, as you can use that mini for Holocuast.

 

So for me, Pallies over GKT any day.

 

Unless you're planning something specific. /shrug

[number6]

Not wholey accurate Number6. :(

 

If you're already including a GKGM, then your Pallies can be scoring, for no extra cost.

<heavy-sarcasm>Mmm-hmmm. And everybody takes a GKGM, too, don't they?</heavy-sarcasm> ;)

 

My point still stands, therefore. ^_^

[Inquisitor Fox]

I would have to disagree, you have several very high Opportunity Costs that aren't being analyzed here.

 

First, you are forgoing any use of the other 3 aspects of Grand Strategy. Note, the reroll wounds doesn't specify if they're shooting or close combat. Second, you would be forgoing Scouting units, or Counter-Attack units. In my mind, the whole point of Grand Strategy is to allow you to improv based upon the mission at hand as you get to it, not to build a list around one specific thing.

 

Second, what if you do not wish to have a Grand Master? What if you want Inquisitors, or Brother-Champions, or Librarians? GK Terminators still occupy a vital spot on the list, that of a Terminator Armored Troop choice. In addition, you still have to purchase two Troop choices before you can purchase Paladins if you aren't playing Draigo, even with a Grand Master, as Grand Strategy doesn't change which slot the Paladins occupy.

 

EDIT: heh, paralleled by number6

[number6]

EDIT: heh, paralleled by number6

But more completely handled by you. :lol:

[The Holy Heretic]

I'd say that paladin nr. 6&7 are a waste along with the apothecary, the first 5 unlocks 2 psycannon (which is the important part), and anything that can deal with terminator armour also negates FNP, so those points are basically a waste too

 

The point of the Apothecary is not to deal with wounds that ignore the Terminator Armour. It's to deal with weight of attacks/volume of fire where those annoying 1's keep cropping up. Combined with wound allocation shenanigans, the Apothecary makes Paladins immune to small arms fire to all intents and purposes.

 

Now, you can argue all you want about whether the points for the Apothecary are value for money but that's another issue.

 

Thanks for stating the obvious :lol:

 

As I said, the apothecary has no effect on weapons that are an actual threat to terminator armour. Sure it can negate a lucky lasgun, but you've already got T4, a 2+ and wound sheananigans to boot, pallies are already immune to small arms fire, so if you want to insure yourself vs. bad luck, I suggest getting a set of loaded dice instead :lol:

[Gentlemanloser]

*cough*

 

That's why I said "not Wholey" :confused:

 

My point still stands, therefore.

 

Well, OK, for Troops, yes you require Draigo. But for Scoring, you don't. :o Now if you only want to use your Troop slots on Pallies, then, you utterly need Driago. But if you just wanted your allies to be able to claim objectives, then no you dont.

 

There is another option open to you (Well two, if you class MOrdrak as different to a GKGM!).

 

First, you are forgoing any use of the other 3 aspects of Grand Strategy. Note, the reroll wounds doesn't specify if they're shooting or close combat. Second, you would be forgoing Scouting units, or Counter-Attack units. In my mind, the whole point of Grand Strategy is to allow you to improv based upon the mission at hand as you get to it, not to build a list around one specific thing.

 

And you don't need scoring units in Annihilation, so no need to use your TGS on your Pallies.

 

You don't *have* to use it as scoring on your Pallies.

 

But it's an option.

 

Second, what if you do not wish to have a Grand Master? What if you want Inquisitors, or Brother-Champions, or Librarians? GK Terminators still occupy a vital spot on the list, that of a Terminator Armored Troop choice.

 

You use Pallies and don't have them score. ;) You use the Striks you take alongside the Pallies as your scoring troops. Or the Henchmen if you use Coteaz.

[Aidoneus]

...This gives you the same amount of TDA Wounds (ID aside obviously)...

Yeah, just go ahead and brush that aside. ;) When you're wearing TDA already, expect to get hit by lascannons, railguns, and demolisher cannons by the truckload, not to mention Dreadnoughts and force weapons in CC. Clumping wounds into fewer models can be a good thing, but it's a double-edged sword, and you absolutely need to take that into account.

 

Keep in mind too that they have the same number of attacks per model as basic terminators. Sure, WS5 means more of those will hit, but that only ever makes a difference against WS4 opponents (or, I suppose, WS9 or 10).

 

What NicolePyykkonen said about the other aspects of Grand Strategy is hugely important too, as well as what she and 6 said about not taking a GM at all.

 

I'm not saying Pallies don't have their uses, but we have to be realistic about this. They are certainly not out-and-out better than GKTs at everything. Nor are Strikes, nor Purifiers. The codex is pretty well balanced, and nearly every unit has its place in one list or another.

[Gentlemanloser]

Well, that rather depends on the rest of your list.

 

If you have a couple of LR, then the Lascannons/Meltas wil be going into them, not the Pallies (for example only, but I hope you get the drift).

 

The Codex really isn't well balanced internally, and I'd go so far as to say you hve to build your list around using GKT and not for using Paladin.

 

Unless there are specific reasons you're building to use GKT, then your better off not using them, and using other units in the Dex.

 

But this has been said many times, over many threads. B)

[RedemptionNL]

Or you could equal the cost, add a BHB and equal the CC PW attacks (with some extra morenal ones) and lose a SB. Which is no big loss, as you can use that mini for Holocuast.

The Bro Banner doesn't replace a stormbolter, it replaces the force weapon. So you only gain 2 force weapon attacks (and 3 normal ones) on a 5 man squad.

[Crynn]

I don't really feel like having this debate. Sure if you feel the need to have terminator troops and don't want to take draigo or use a grandmaster and use the scoring ability then yes you have to use terminators but in no way makes them good. They do less damage than strikes for the points and are less survivable and also have less psychic abilities. Purifiers and henchman can also be troops and are fantastic at it.

 

The fact is that very few people take terminators in competetive tournaments and terminators have never been in any top placing list. Yes you can get free halberds and combat weapons but the advantages are far outweighed by the advantages of strikes or purifiers for cost. So to the question of taking Paladins in 1850, if you aim to be as competetive as possible and use terminators you should take Paladins, otherwise take strikes or purifiers. I do agree the GK codex has some decent internal balance but their are still some choices that aren't optimal and one of them is terminators.

 

I have been running grey knights since the codex came out and my experience and that of those players who I have played with terminators indicates exactly what the math would suggests Strikes>Terminators.

 

Regards,

Crynn

[Gentlemanloser]

The Bro Banner doesn't replace a stormbolter, it replaces the force weapon. So you only gain 2 force weapon attacks (and 3 normal ones) on a 5 man squad.

 

Doh! That's the Apoth upgrade isn't it. :D

 

I even mention it (gaining some normal attacks...) in the same post. Oh well. ;)

[Lady_Canoness]

The biggest reason I choose terminators in my list as opposed to going purely with Strikers is this:Roll a 2 and my terminator is still alive.

 

Strikes have their uses, but I would say that, between them and Paladins, they in no way rule Terminators out of the list. In my experience, Paladins are the anvil used to take hits and survive where other units could not, Terminators are the hammer for dealing heavy damage to enemy units with little fear of losing in combat, and Strikers are a scalpel used for cutting out small units that either are not worth engaging with terminators or would be too dangerous to TDA units.

 

More often that not, my opponents have commented on the vulnerability of Strikers and Interceptors, and have stated how the Paladins and Terminators are the real workhorses in the army. Seeing how easy it can be to fail a 3+ save, and how often my Strikes have been cut down by massed small arms, I tend to agree with them. Large Terminator squads are my unit of choice when it comes to both objective claiming and spearheading assaults.

[Gentlemanloser]

And this is where the internal Balance of the Codex falls down.

 

With a GKT, sure, you roll a 2 and they live.

 

But for the cost, you get 2 3+ Saves. Roll a 2, and you've *still* got a 3+ Wound, with a S5 Force Weapon and a Storm Bolter.

 

Strikes are (overall) more durable than an equivalent cost of Terminators.

 

They deal more damage, by having more Psycannon shots, more SB shots and (slightly) more CC attacks.

 

I said I wouldn't get back into this debate. :lol: I'm sorry.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I think a five man squad of GKT is better than a similar costed Strike squad. This is based on my experience for tournament play. Strike squads are not good in melee while GKT are. The only big advantage for a Strike squad is Warp Quake IMO. I only play all terminator armor GK lists and they do just fine.

 

G :D

[Gentlemanloser]

I just don't see that. :/ In play, or through mathhammer.

 

5 GKT, 1 Psycannon: 225

 

5 2+ Wounds, 10 SB Shots, 4 Psycannon shots, 10 Attacks (15 on the Charge).

 

 

10 Strikes, 2 Psycannon: 220

 

10 3+ Wounds, 20 SB Shots, 4-8 Psycannon Shots, 11 Attacks (21 on the Charge), Sweeping Advance, Warp Quake.

 

 

Unless you *need* Halberds, or face a lot of AP3 (and not AP1-2), there's no comparison. Both Squads score, can Deep Strike, and the Strikes have the added benefit of being able to ride in Transports you don't need to purchase a Henchman squad to get.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I see more people using two squads of five Strikes - it helps them spread the effect of Warp Quake.

 

G :o