On Masters and Grand Masters

[Captain Semper]

I was thinking the other day about titles in the DAs and Succesors, namely the difference between a Master and a Grand Master.

 

In the Codex it says that each company is led by a Master. Fine. It also says in the chart of the chapter organization that the Inner Circle is comprised (among others) by Grand Masters. This leads me to beleive that once you are in the Inner Circle you must be a Grand Master (unless you are a Librarian or an Interrogator Chaplain). In the Company Masters description it says that all company Masters are members of the Inner Circle. That then would make them Grand Masters. So here's the question: Is there a point for the rank of Master? Who is a Master but not a Grand Master?

 

Thoughts?

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

It leads me to believe that a member of the Inner Circle may be a GrandMaster but not all, just that all GrandMasters are in the inner circle

 

I would say that all Grandmasters are the GM's pf the successors, the GM of the librarians, the GM of the Chaplians and the GM of the SwordWing (Fleet)

 

This, in effect, supports, for me, the belief that we are a secret Legion. I also had this idea, once, that belial was, in fact the GM of the DA while Azrael is the stand in for the Lion and the SGM, ie: leader of a Legion.

 

Just my thoughts on the matter.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

I think Master and Grand Master are interchangeable to a point. Master is the formal name for the company Captain position, Grand Master is the formal name for the overall Chapter hierarchy position. With exception of Librarians and Chaplains were the Grand Master is the top spot,

[shabbadoo]

"Master" is the rank of the Company leaders, plus important auxiliary postings like Master of the Forge, Master of the Apothecarion, Master of the Fleet, Master of Recruits, etc. The most important Chapter postings carry the title of Grand Master, namely the top positions among Chaplains, Librarians, and of the Deathwing. Still, some Company leaders other than the current leader of the 1st Company could also hold the rank of "Grand Master", which among the Dark Angels, probably has more to do with one's knowledge of the Chapter's dark history and involvement in pursuing the Chapter's hidden goal than with one's length of service. We know a few DA Company leader's names, but only one of these we know is a Grand Master, that being Belial. Sammael is not, nor is Sheol(of the 4th Company I think), nor is Orias of the 3rd Company. Outside of Belial, the title might be very, very rare for a Company leader. Taht probably has to do with being in charge of an entire Company having knowledge of the Fallen.

[Grimdarkness]

Master = company captain

 

Grand master= chapter master and heads of the libarium and chaplains iirc (I'm sure it's just chapter master though)

 

Superem grand master= Head of the legion.

[Bryan Blaire]

In the 3rd Edition 'Dex, it listed general "Masters" in the Inner Circle as well. That made the whole set up make a lot more sense than the 4th Ed does, because as Shabbadoo pointed out, there are probably other Masters within the DA and Successors, but if you follow the 4th Ed 'Dex chart, they aren't explicitly defined as in the Inner Circle.

[Brother dean]

In target shooting, the 9 ring and the 10 ring are both considered "Bullseye" but obviously have different values. There are several layers in the Inner Circle. Masters are the 9 ring, Grand masters are the 10 ring, Azzy, Zeke and Sapphon are the cross at the middle of the 10 ring.

[Captain Semper]

In the 3rd Edition 'Dex, it listed general "Masters" in the Inner Circle as well. That made the whole set up make a lot more sense than the 4th Ed does, because as Shabbadoo pointed out, there are probably other Masters within the DA and Successors, but if you follow the 4th Ed 'Dex chart, they aren't explicitly defined as in the Inner Circle.

 

Yes that is true... and 2nd and 4th ed. do not and personally whenever there is conflicting fluff between editions I tend to adopt the most recent. But you have a point. Assuming the 4th ed. organization chart is missing the inclusion of Masters in the Inner Circle (due to a printing error say), that means that the Inner circle comprises of two (at least) distinct levels of seniority - Masters AND Grand Masters. Which brings us nicely to...

 

In target shooting, the 9 ring and the 10 ring are both considered "Bullseye" but obviously have different values. There are several layers in the Inner Circle. Masters are the 9 ring, Grand masters are the 10 ring, Azzy, Zeke and Sapphon are the cross at the middle of the 10 ring.

 

...this! Although what you say makes sense I can't help but feel that the inclusion of "mere" Masters in the Inner Circle lowers the overall exclusivity of this body. I am all for circles within circles but the Inner Circle is the Inner Circle. Only the core should be part of that - that means only Grand Masters in my mind. Of course as Shabbadoo said you can potentially be the 4th Master (for example) AND a Grand Master but it should be the latter that will qualify you to the Inner Circle not the former.

 

OK, life goes on... Thx for your thoughts guys :D

[Brother dean]

"mere" Masters

 

There's only nine... And they would be in for mission planning issues. Lets compare that to the number of Interogator chappies that are in the 9 ring too... How many Grand masters are there? Infact let me amend my analogy... Masters in the 9 ring, Grand Masters of DW, Libbys, & Chappies in the 10 ring. Azzy as the cross in the middle.

 

So:

 

9 masters (2-10)

3 Grand masters

1 Supreme Grand Master

 

Things have been muddied ever since 2nd ed when each company had a Grand and a Master but the company Grands have kinda dissappeared since the "Lieutenant" disappeared from the smurf dex.

[Captain Semper]

"mere" Masters

 

There's only nine... And they would be in for mission planning issues. Lets compare that to the number of Interogator chappies that are in the 9 ring too... How many Grand masters are there? Infact let me amend my analogy... Masters in the 9 ring, Grand Masters of DW, Libbys, & Chappies in the 10 ring. Azzy as the cross in the middle.

 

So:

 

9 masters (2-10)

3 Grand masters

1 Supreme Grand Master

 

Things have been muddied ever since 2nd ed when each company had a Grand and a Master but the company Grands have kinda dissappeared since the "Lieutenant" disappeared from the smurf dex.

 

 

Umm, 2nd ed. had a Grand Master and a Master per company?

 

*Looks at 2nd ed organization chart*

 

where?

[Brother dean]

It's implied... Look at the Basic Captain Unit entry in the Army list.

 

It offers you

Grand Master [stats]

Master [stats]

Captain/lieutenant/hero (I forget) [stats]

 

If Azzy and Grand master of the DW are special Characters then who are these other generic "Grand Masters"? (It's not my idea, others have posted it before me...)

[Captain Semper]

Are we talking 2nd or 3rd here? Master of the DW was not a special character until 4th. Also the idea that only the Master of the DW had access to TDA was a 4th edition novelty. Three stats for a "DA Hero" exist only in 3rd. In second it is a distinct entry as a "Dark Angels Master" (who is supposedly form the Inner Circle of the DW to make matters even more confusing :D).

 

Other "generic" grand masters may be former Company Masters that have been deemed too important to retain their front line duty in every tediuos engagement and are reserved for the more "dark" assignments. Or they could be Company Masters that have progressed to become Grand Masters but have retained the command of their company. The point is that in neither the 2nd or the 3rd edition was there ever the notion that there was a Grand Master AND a Master assigned to a company.

[march10k]

I'd say "master" indicates the captaincy of a company, i.e., it's a rank/position. Grand Master, on the other hand, seems to indicate having achieved a certain level of penetration into the inner circle, i.e., it's a level of knowledge...which could be a prerequisite for certain positions... The one glaring hole in this theory is my opinion that the captains of the first AND SECOND (therein lies the problem) companies would almost certainly need and have a grand master's level of knowledge and standing within the inner circle.

 

Or...maybe there's really just "master," and the prefix "grand" is simply an honorific (and we don't know the details of how/when/why it's awarded)...and of course SGM is the main dude, duh.

[Isiah]

Just to say that Belial is called both "Master Belial of the Deathwing" and "Grand Master of the Deathwing" on the same page in our Codex [p42].

 

According to that page the leader of the DW is known as a "Grand Master", but the holder of that position has a rank of "Master". This would back up march10k's point in the previous post. Also on the DA org chart on p15, the top dog of the Deathwing is shown as being a "Master".

 

So yes, Master = rank, leader of a Company. Grand Master is a conferred honourific title.

 

 

 

Cheers

I

[Brother Immolator]

Master = company captain

 

Grand master= chapter master and heads of the libarium and chaplains iirc (I'm sure it's just chapter master though)

 

Superem grand master= Head of the legion.

 

This sums it up.As for Belials 'grandl' argument,i believe it is granted due to the fact that he is master of the first company and thereby senior in rank in comparison to the 'regular' company masters.Although the ravenwing master should have a distinct title with that logic.Hm.....

[Zebukkuk]

I'd say "master" indicates the captaincy of a company, i.e., it's a rank/position. Grand Master, on the other hand, seems to indicate having achieved a certain level of penetration into the inner circle, i.e., it's a level of knowledge...which could be a prerequisite for certain positions... The one glaring hole in this theory is my opinion that the captains of the first AND SECOND (therein lies the problem) companies would almost certainly need and have a grand master's level of knowledge and standing within the inner circle.

 

Or...maybe there's really just "master," and the prefix "grand" is simply an honorific (and we don't know the details of how/when/why it's awarded)...and of course SGM is the main dude, duh.

 

I hope they clear this up in the next version of the Codex. In Sammael's description it says he knows everything about the Dark Angels' secret mission. That would put his level of knowledge on the same level as Belial's, minimum. They need to clearly delineate what constitutes the Inner Circle and sort out this Master / Grand Master issue. Granted it's only a "fluff" inconsistency but it would be nice to get it straight.

[Interrogator Stobz]

My 2c worth are similar to many above but because we are IMHO a Legion I think there are the following;

(All these positions are in the Inner Circle although some more deeply than others);

 

'SGM'-1 per Legion, this person also leads his own Chapter (AFAIK it is always the DA as the parent chapter, this may not always be the case but our resourses are incomplete ;) )

Each of the successor Unforgiven Chapters has a 'GM' as the Chapter Master

 

Each 1st Company across the Unforgiven Legion is a DW equivalent and is commanded by an 'M'otDW(equivalent)

The DA 1st Company Master is also a 'GM'otDW, this shows his control over/direct link to the other 1st Company 'M's with respect to the capture of the Fallen

 

Each 2nd Company is a RW equivalent and is commanded by an 'M'otRW

The DA 2nd Company Master may have an extra 'GM' title as well, I cannot find reference to it but it makes sense. He would act in the same way 'GM'otDW acts and would link the RW equivalents across the Legion with respect to the Hunt for the Fallen.

 

Each Unforgiven Chapter also has an 'M' of Librarians and an 'M' of Chaplains

The Unforgiven Legion links the above 'M's through a 'GM' of Librarians, and a 'GM' of Chaplains, again similar to 'GM'otDW but for the purpose of Interrogating the Fallen

 

Each of the 3-9th Companies in the Legion has an 'M' as a Company Master, these Company Masters also hold titles/roles of 'M'ot- Fleet, Arsenal, and Watch (one of each for each Chapter.)

Each 10th Company in the Legion has an 'M' as a Company Master, these Masters also carry the title/role of 'M'ot Recruits

Although the current dex calls these extra titles GMs I don't think there is a need for a direct link between 3-10th Companies of the Legion as such I dont apply that to my concept of the Legion, either way though it simply duplicates and enlarges the cross Chapter links if there are is such titles.

 

Each Chapter also has a MotForge, this person is NOT nessessarily in the Inner Circle, there is no 'GM'otForge for the Unforgiven Legion as we have no pressing need to link these people directly.

 

This is how I see and play it, not all of the ideas have references in 'dexes current or past but I like the mixed references and vague retcons that GW has inflicted upon us. Maybe it will all become clear one day................ I doubt it :lol:

 

SOOOO,UF Legion TOE has IMHO:

SGM/GMot DA

GMot Librarians

GMot Chaplains

GMot Deathwing

GMot Ravenwing

GMot AoV

GMot GotC

GMot DoC

GMot C

GMot AoR

GMot AoA

6x Mot DW(equivalent)

6x Mot RW(equivalent)

6x Mot Librarians

6x Mot Chaplains

7x Mot Forge

 

56x Mo 3-10 Companies, divided into:

7x Mot Recruits

7x Mot Fleet

7x Mot Arsenal

7x Mot Watch

and the remainder being 'simply' masters of their Companies,

 

NOT including other successor Chapters..........................

:rolleyes: that was a bit long winded :P

 

s

[Captain Semper]

:)

 

Stobz you really had a go with it :)

[Interrogator Stobz]

:) Yup, and I probably missed a few too, haha

 

That is just my view though, others will think defferently and so they should :rolleyes:

 

Gotta love the vague and inconsistant resources GW has supplied us with for the last two decades, keeps things wide open for discussion/interpretation

[Brother Immolator]

interpretation

 

That would be internetation IMHO.Aint i a language moulder :rolleyes:?

[wacca]

I relate the matter to how it is in the forces. you wouldn't have just 1 guy leading it and dealing with the admin. there is 1 supreme grand master = azreal there are several grand masters, Master of the forge etc although these have different titles within DA. then there are the Captains of the companies who hold the title of Master. all of these are in the inner circle although at very different levels and therefore different levels of knowledge, the captains would need to know the reason they are being given there mission in order to best use there resources. if it wasn't for the cost of the models I would have the Company HQs larger, 1 master = Major, 2/3 captains Assault, Tactical and devastator colour sergents to help the admin, runners, bodyguards, specialist comms guys lol i love lots of models

[Brother dean]

I dont want to admit it but I am wrong and I retract most of what I said earlier...

[Phoebus]

My two cents' worth:

 

Just as Azrael is Supreme Grand Master because he is ultimately the man with the most influence over the Dark Angels and their Successors (Secret Legion!), Belial - and only Belial - is a Grand Master because the Master of the First Company of the Dark Angels is the man who logically would become the next Supreme Grand Master. Yes, I know that the Codex says that "each Supreme Grand Master chooses his successor from the members of the Inner Circle". Here's the thing, though. If the Master currently in command of the Deathwing isn't a Grand Master by reason of being the de-facto Successor, then why the rank?

 

If it's because he has some level of control over the Deathwing-equivalents of the other Chapters, then the chain of command quickly becomes muddled. Azrael can dictate over the other Chapter Masters because ultimately he's determining strategy: it's no different than a General passing on his operational plan to his subordinate commanders (except in this case it's limited to a covert operation). Belial, however, is a tactical commander. He doesn't affect strategy within his own Chapter, and thus is doesn't make sense that he would dictate it for another Chapter's Deathwing-equivalent. Nor does it make sense for other commanders of a Deathwing-equivalent to answer to him when it comes to their own tactics.

 

Besides, who better to succeed the Supreme Grand Master than the member of the Inner Circle who is most involved (other than perhaps the Grand Master of Librarians and the Grand Master of Chaplains) in the Hunt for the Fallen? Unless there's some really shady stuff going on, I can't imagine a scenario where the Supreme Grand Master wouldn't choose the very best Master to become the new Grand Master of the Deathwing.

 

As such, I really think that the line in Azrael's 4E writeup (about choosing his replacement from the Inner Circle) is probably there to address the absolute exception to the rule.

 

As in: personally, I think "Purging of Kadillus" shows Belial to be a mediocre, unconfident commander at best. Let's assume that there was an absolute dearth of good Dark Angels Masters at the time, though, and Belial was the best among the worst... and thus gets the nod to become Grand Master of the Deathwing. Lo and behold, though, Veteran Sergeant Mary Sue of the Deathwing finally gets his chance and is given command of (for example) the Fourth Company. Next thing you know, he turns out to be a tactical genius and a wizard with a sword to boot. He's literally the best thing since prometheum, sliced bread, AND the power armour helmet that allows you to actually turn your head. Amazing! But he'll never become Grand Master of the Deathwing until Belial dies. Azrael's not an idiot, though. He's not going to pick Belial to be Supreme Grand Master. Not when he heard that he had to get pep talks from a newbie Lexicanum after getting his ass handed to him at Piscina. He's going to pick Master Mary Sue, even though this goes against tradition. ;)

[Brother Degas]

@stobz, pretty much how I see it but I would say the GM of the RW belongs to another chapter which is why sammy is only called a M.

 

@phoebus, pretty much spot on again. The SGM will pick his replacement from all the unforgiven, not just the DA. Isnt there a rumour that azzie is from a sucessor?

[Phoebus]

Hmmm, that's not what I was driving at. I know at least one of the Codices specifically identifies Azrael as being Master of the Deathwing (or the Third Company, can't recall) prior to becoming SGM.

 

All the same, I don't think a Master of a different Chapter could become SGM. I just happen to think that the norm is for the Grand Master of the Deathwing to become the SGM. Hence why I didn't bother going into there being a GM of the Ravenwing: I don't think there is one because him becoming the SGM is about as likely as any other Master (of the Dark Angels) being chosen. Ultimately, the GM of the Deathwing has much more responsibility and prestige than the other nine to be skipped over.