On Masters and Grand Masters

[Brother Immolator]

@stobz, pretty much how I see it but I would say the GM of the RW belongs to another chapter which is why sammy is only called a M.

 

@phoebus, pretty much spot on again. The SGM will pick his replacement from all the unforgiven, not just the DA. Isnt there a rumour that azzie is from a sucessor?

 

IMHO the first is unlikely and for the second i have serious doubts.I remember reading on one of the deathwatch supplements(yes canon with a cement mixers worth of salt,i know)that the angels of absolution,are considered by the rest of the unforgiven to have gone too far in the:we dont care about the sins,thingie to the point of...well you know...

 

Thus if a successor is starting to show signs of deviation from the legion it would be completely illogical to risk by choosing the leadership not from the pool(DA)that is considered the embodiment of the unforgiven s purpose.

 

One can also assume through the rule of termination(cant remember the actual mathematics term right now)that since there is no record of any previous masters or grandmasters inside the chapter been from the rest of the unforgiven,it will stand that they are chosen exclusively from DA stock,and frankly it would serve as a political reason/icon as well.

 

Clearly all those are speculation and stretching it from tidy bits of info that may not been canon at all.IMHO however the Deathwatch books are the prequel(fluff wise)to sixth so i guess we'll see...

 

As from where Az came from.If i remember it right(have not the info on me right now)He was part of the third company,recruited from Kimeria(all hail Conan)and he fought in the Faze V campaign a conflict that the DA fought alone.Also he became master of the third at some point and later master of the deathwing,reinforcing the hints of the next SGM been from there..

[Brother Degas]

if its a legion then any master whose qualified can become sgm, regardless aof chapter, I think the issue would be where they stand in the inner circle and asmodis (?) assessment.

[Phoebus]

Doubtful, IMHO. You have to balance the "Secret Legion" theme with the fact that the Successor Chapters are, at the end of the day, more-or-less their own forces.

 

To begin with, you can't expect someone who had virtually MINIMAL interaction with the Dark Angels Chapter to become their leader overnight. There would be almost zero relationship with his subordinates, no familiarity with their strengths and weaknesses, etc.

 

Additionally, there would be the issues with the mindset of a different Chapter's officer not necessarily reconciling with that of the Dark Angels. The Disciples of Caliban, for instance, are hinted to be hunting for Cypher to the exclusion of everything else. Would a SGM from their Chapter make compromises and allow "lesser" Fallen to escape to focus more on the notorious Cypher? The Angels of Absolution believe that their own sins have been expunged. Would one of their number perhaps be too lax as SGM? The Angels of Redemption, in turn are even more fanatical in pursuing the Fallen. Would a SGM from their ranks lead the Dark Angels to ever greater rifts with the Imperial authorities?

 

The second part is kind of moot, though. The Dark Angels and their Successors seem to recognize and accept a system wherein they are a brotherhood of equals, with the Dark Angels themselves being the "first" among the equals. It's really no different than the idea of ten Companies belonging to the same Chapter, but it being understood that the Captain of the First Company ultimately carries the most authority (despite having the same rank as the other Company commanders).

[Brother Degas]

thats all true but Im not saying the SGM becomes head of the DA, thats just a rumor I read somewhere, I personally prefer the senior unforgiven titles to be spread around the successors.

 

The way I picture it is similiar to multiple armies within a theater of war, each is autonomous but working towards a single goal and any commander who has reached the proper level can be considered worthy.

[Phoebus]

I'm not sure what you're proposing. Is it that the Supreme Grand Master could also be the (for instance) Chapter Master of the Angels of Absolution?

 

Agree to disagree, I guess. I think Space Marines place a great deal of importance to the kind of heritage and pedigree that comes with being a First Founding Chapter. I doubt the SGM would ever come from a Successor. As for the other senior titles, I think it's the same as how Belial is the Grand Master of the Deathwing. In a Successor Chapter, you would have members of the Inner Circle who would include a Master (not Grand Master) of the Deathwing-equivalent, a Master (not Grand Master) of the Librarians, etc. The only Grand Masters are in the Dark Angels themselves. The exceptions to this would be the Chapter Masters of the Successor Chapters - who are Grand Masters as well.

 

To each their own, though! ;)

[Brother Degas]

yeah, thats it and it has a few holes as a theory.

 

Interesting conversation :D

[Captain Semper]

This is going to be long...

 

Interesting conversation :D

Yes, talking to Phoebus tends to be that way…

 

My two cents' worth:

 

Just as Azrael is Supreme Grand Master because he is ultimately the man with the most influence over the Dark Angels and their Successors (Secret Legion!), Belial - and only Belial - is a Grand Master because the Master of the First Company of the Dark Angels is the man who logically would become the next Supreme Grand Master. Yes, I know that the Codex says that "each Supreme Grand Master chooses his successor from the members of the Inner Circle". Here's the thing, though. If the Master currently in command of the Deathwing isn't a Grand Master by reason of being the de-facto Successor, then why the rank?

 

This is a view, I'm afraid I disagree with. Let me explain why:

 

i) The position of the Master of the Deathwing is not a position of SGM in waiting. In fact the fluff is pretty clear on it; the next SGM comes from the Inner Circle and is whoever the previous SGM says it is. There is no clause saying it has to be a particular member of the Inner Circle or from a particular position. All are eligible.

ii) Belial is a Grand Master (says so in his description). He is also (therefore?) a possible candidate for the top job. One of many. Well not that many but you get my meaning...

iii) Ezekiel is a Grand Master and so is Sapphon. They hold the title, what does this make them? There could be other Grand Masters that are not that clearly positioned in the military command of the Chapter. We just don't know how many there are. Oh, and there are the Grand Masters of the Inner Circles of the Succesor Chapters as well. Being a Grand Master is rare but certainly not unique to Belial. In fact assuming that both the Organization Chart AND the description of the DA Masters are correct, it leads to the conclusion that all Company Masters are indeed Grand Masters... but maybe there was an oversight by GW.

 

Therefore (and this is personal take) given that the Inner Circle spans across the DA Primogenitors (and I assume all Successor Chapters) the position of the SGM can be filled by anyone member of the Inner Circle of any Unforgiven Chapter. Thus underlining the "secret Legion" theme.

 

If it's because he has some level of control over the Deathwing-equivalents of the other Chapters, then the chain of command quickly becomes muddled. Azrael can dictate over the other Chapter Masters because ultimately he's determining strategy: it's no different than a General passing on his operational plan to his subordinate commanders (except in this case it's limited to a covert operation). Belial, however, is a tactical commander. He doesn't affect strategy within his own Chapter, and thus is doesn't make sense that he would dictate it for another Chapter's Deathwing-equivalent. Nor does it make sense for other commanders of a Deathwing-equivalent to answer to him when it comes to their own tactics.

 

Belial is a member of the Inner Circle. A Grand Master. He is more than a tactical officer on the field - although he is that too. He shapes strategy as much as any other member of the Inner Circle. In the end of the day the SGM makes a call but if there is anything resembling a "war council" then Belial is in. For sure. So unless you are arguing that the SGM is meditating and then dictating policies and strategies to everybody else (which I doubt) then the Inner circle is the body that influnces (affects?) said strategies. Of course if you go by the notion that the SGM is just consulting the Watchers and announces his decisions to his minions then (although possible as there is little info on the subject) kind of defeats the purpose of having an Inner Circle.

 

And who said that Belial dictates to other 1st Company Masters anything? He has no seniority vs. any other 1st Master. Deathwing Masters take their orders from their respective Inner Circles (that are ultimately subordinate to the SGM) NOT their Dark Angles Chapter equivalents.

 

Besides, who better to succeed the Supreme Grand Master than the member of the Inner Circle who is most involved (other than perhaps the Grand Master of Librarians and the Grand Master of Chaplains) in the Hunt for the Fallen?

 

I don't know. It’s up to the SGM to decide. Belial sure is a good candidate. But there might be others.

 

Unless there's some really shady stuff going on, I can't imagine a scenario where the Supreme Grand Master wouldn't choose the very best Master to become the new Grand Master of the Deathwing.

 

Agreed.

 

As such, I really think that the line in Azrael's 4E writeup (about choosing his replacement from the Inner Circle) is probably there to address the absolute exception to the rule.

 

It's the 2nd ed. write up too.

 

As in: personally, I think "Purging of Kadillus" shows Belial to be a mediocre, unconfident commander at best. Let's assume that there was an absolute dearth of good Dark Angels Masters at the time, though, and Belial was the best among the worst... and thus gets the nod to become Grand Master of the Deathwing. Lo and behold, though, Veteran Sergeant Mary Sue of the Deathwing finally gets his chance and is given command of (for example) the Fourth Company. Next thing you know, he turns out to be a tactical genius and a wizard with a sword to boot. He's literally the best thing since prometheum, sliced bread, AND the power armour helmet that allows you to actually turn your head. Amazing! But he'll never become Grand Master of the Deathwing until Belial dies. Azrael's not an idiot, though. He's not going to pick Belial to be Supreme Grand Master. Not when he heard that he had to get pep talks from a newbie Lexicanum after getting his ass handed to him at Piscina. He's going to pick Master Mary Sue, even though this goes against tradition. :)

 

Master Mary Sue sounds like the man!!! However I'm not sure that this should be an exception OR that there is a tradition there to be observed. Best thing is, Azrael might choose John Doe 4th Master of the Angels of Redemption. He seems like a decent fellow too.

 

Oh, and I completely agree with your views on the Kadillus book btw.

 

The SGM will pick his replacement from all the unforgiven, not just the DA. Isnt there a rumour that azzie is from a sucessor?

 

This.

 

Hmmm, that's not what I was driving at. I know at least one of the Codices specifically identifies Azrael as being Master of the Deathwing (or the Third Company, can't recall) prior to becoming SGM.

 

He was. It's in 3rd ed description.

 

All the same, I don't think a Master of a different Chapter could become SGM.

 

Why not? Nothing in the fluff denies that - and it supports the "secret Legion" theme no end.

 

I just happen to think that the norm is for the Grand Master of the Deathwing to become the SGM. Hence why I didn't bother going into there being a GM of the Ravenwing: I don't think there is one because him becoming the SGM is about as likely as any other Master (of the Dark Angels) being chosen. Ultimately, the GM of the Deathwing has much more responsibility and prestige than the other nine to be skipped over.

The Grand Master of the DW is definitely a good candidate. However there is no piece of fluff that points to a “tradition” or a “norm”.

 

Here is another theory. I was thinking, how does the SGM informs the Chapter (Legion?) of his choice? Does he write it on a piece of paper in case he dies unexpectedly? He puts said paper in a safe? No. He reaches the decision under the influence of the Watchers. The latter being incredibly psychic must know best. So they advise the SGM and the latter takes their suggestions under serious consideration. When the SGM dies, the Watchers inform the Chapter officials of the SGM choice. Therefore said Master Mary Sue or Master John Doe are an equally possible choice as Belial.

 

This is my current theory.

 

Doubtful, IMHO. You have to balance the "Secret Legion" theme with the fact that the Successor Chapters are, at the end of the day, more-or-less their own forces.

 

True that!

 

To begin with, you can't expect someone who had virtually MINIMAL interaction with the Dark Angels Chapter to become their leader overnight. There would be almost zero relationship with his subordinates, no familiarity with their strengths and weaknesses, etc.

 

This is interesting. One can imagine the situation that the Inner Circle comes to session on a regular basis. All members know each other. We do not know the level of cooperation between them but one can assume is close. All the SGM need to do is command the Inner Circle not the squads on the ground.

 

Additionally, there would be the issues with the mindset of a different Chapter's officer not necessarily reconciling with that of the Dark Angels. The Disciples of Caliban, for instance, are hinted to be hunting for Cypher to the exclusion of everything else. Would a SGM from their Chapter make compromises and allow "lesser" Fallen to escape to focus more on the notorious Cypher?

 

I don’t know, maybe? That’s why he is the SGM. To make such calls.

 

The Angels of Absolution believe that their own sins have been expunged. Would one of their number perhaps be too lax as SGM?

If so the previous SGM will probably not choose him. However there is no laxity EVER shown in the hunt of the Fallen by AoA. Maybe they have a different cause but the end result is the same. They hunt the Fallen. Suggesting AoA show laxity is heresy :D

 

The Angels of Redemption, in turn are even more fanatical in pursuing the Fallen. Would a SGM from their ranks lead the Dark Angels to ever greater rifts with the Imperial authorities?

 

Again maybe. All SGM leave their mark (I suppose). All of them serve a purpose in the given point in time. And their responsibility is to choose the next SGM to be the best in the conditions that they envisage for the future.

[Brother-Captain Sharp]

An interesting sidenote about Sammael: The back of the current codex refers to him as Sammael, Grand Master of the Ravenwing. It would make sense to me for him to have that title if Belial does, especially if Belial and Sammael coordinate efforts across all of the successor chapters' 1st and 2nd companies.

[Interrogator Stobz]

All my points are based upon the assumtion that we DO have a secret Legion, and quite a strong one at that, so here are my2c worth of explanation:P :

 

Doubtful, IMHO. You have to balance the "Secret Legion" theme with the fact that the Successor Chapters are, at the end of the day, more-or-less their own forces.

As I mentioned earlier, I like the idea of a strong interlinking feel to the 'secret Legion', the DA and their successors may deal separately in day to day warfare but are VERY tight and interwoven when it comes to the Fallen. Otherwise there is no point to a secret legion. That is how I play my DA.

 

To begin with, you can't expect someone who had virtually MINIMAL interaction with the Dark Angels Chapter to become their leader overnight. There would be almost zero relationship with his subordinates, no familiarity with their strengths and weaknesses, etc.

I hate to mention RL, Buuuuuuuuuuuut :) it is common practice in many militaries to post someone to a different unit on promotion. The practice serves to break the peer bond and gives the new commander a clean slate to work with and to impose his style on. This wouldn't effect tactics for elite units like SMs too greatly as their styles wouldn't be too dissimilar and if they did need to change for any reason they are also very adaptable. It may effect Strategies but I doubt a SGM will choose someone with widely divergent ideas to be their successor.

Also, what Captain Semper said. The top brass already know each other (at least in passing). My 'idea' of the DA having links across the various companies helps to strengthen that bond and enables familiarity for less senior ranks. And I like the idea that across the DW/RW there are higher levels of 'equals', that is to me why there are GMs and Ms for those sub units. Cross training and mid level 'conferences' also helps to mitigate the zero relationship issue. I'm sorry to all the successor players but to me you are just another Dark Angel using a different name to hide our secret :huh:

 

Additionally, there would be the issues with the mindset of a different Chapter's officer not necessarily reconciling with that of the Dark Angels. The Disciples of Caliban, for instance, are hinted to be hunting for Cypher to the exclusion of everything else. Would a SGM from their Chapter make compromises and allow "lesser" Fallen to escape to focus more on the notorious Cypher? The Angels of Absolution believe that their own sins have been expunged. Would one of their number perhaps be too lax as SGM? The Angels of Redemption, in turn are even more fanatical in pursuing the Fallen. Would a SGM from their ranks lead the Dark Angels to ever greater rifts with the Imperial authorities?

 

The SGM and his 'watchers' can/could use promotion to reinforce a bond and to help bring the successors back into line with the parent chapters ideals. Risk is mitigated by choosing a 'moderate' to help swing things back into line. 10000 years is a long time for different groups to be expected to think exactly the same, it needs work at all levels(just like a marriage :P ).

 

The second part is kind of moot, though. The Dark Angels and their Successors seem to recognize and accept a system wherein they are a brotherhood of equals, with the Dark Angels themselves being the "first" among the equals. It's really no different than the idea of ten Companies belonging to the same Chapter, but it being understood that the Captain of the First Company ultimately carries the most authority (despite having the same rank as the other Company commanders).

 

Whilst I agree with the 'First among equals' part, I also don't see it carved in stone. Entry and promotion is based on merit in our "Order".

2c :D

[Brother_Darius]

The master of the Dark angels first company, is not always a grand master. The master of the second company is not always limited to just master. Grand Master Gideon of the Ravenwing is quoted quite often in the codex and he is always reported as being a grand master.

 

Its interesting to note that only in the 2nd edition codex does it mention the masters of the battle companies (3rd, 4th, and 5th) At that time the master of the 3rd is Belial, the 5th is Sammy. Both which received promotions come 4th edition. The master of the 4thDark company is Sheol. I wonder what happened to him?

 

If you buy into the legion idea, I would think simply that the title of "Grand" simply refers to an honorary title noting that person to be the 'first among equals' For now the 1stmaster companies Grand Master resides with the Dark Angels. However I would not be surprised to find that within there history that title has been held in the AoA, or another founding. Same with the Ravenwing, etc....

[Phoebus]

This is a view, I'm afraid I disagree with. Let me explain why:

 

i) The position of the Master of the Deathwing is not a position of SGM in waiting. In fact the fluff is pretty clear on it; the next SGM comes from the Inner Circle and is whoever the previous SGM says it is. There is no clause saying it has to be a particular member of the Inner Circle or from a particular position. All are eligible.

ii) Belial is a Grand Master (says so in his description). He is also (therefore?) a possible candidate for the top job. One of many. Well not that many but you get my meaning...

No doubt! I should re-state that what I'm offering is nought but conjecture! :)

 

 

iii) Ezekiel is a Grand Master and so is Sapphon. They hold the title, what does this make them? There could be other Grand Masters that are not that clearly positioned in the military command of the Chapter. We just don't know how many there are. Oh, and there are the Grand Masters of the Inner Circles of the Succesor Chapters as well. Being a Grand Master is rare but certainly not unique to Belial. In fact assuming that both the Organization Chart AND the description of the DA Masters are correct, it leads to the conclusion that all Company Masters are indeed Grand Masters... but maybe there was an oversight by GW.

No doubt about the above, either.

 

I salute your post, incidentally, because it reminded me of a very key fact: aside from Ezekiel (Grand Master of Librarians) and Sapphon (Grand Master of Chaplains), there ARE other Grand Masters in the Chapter.

 

That having been said... what a convoluted mess.

 

Four other Grand Masters are mentioned in page 14 of the 4E Codex: the Grand Masters of the Fleet, the Arsenal, the Watch, and the Recruits. It's tempting to assume that the Grand Master of the Recruits would be the commander of Tenth Company. Previous fluff also strongly implies that the remainder of the named titles would likely be assigned to Captains in command of other Companies. For instance, both "Nocturne" and the "Ultramarines" novels have a Company Captain as Master of the Fleet. "Rynn's World" has pretty much each of its Company Captains being a Master of something or another (Gates, Shield, Shadows, Siege, etc.). Codex: Space Marines has Kor'sarro Khan as Master of the Hunt.

 

What complicates things, though, is the fact that the very next paragraph on page 14 states that each of the Companies of the Dark Angels is led by a Master... not a Grand Master. One would think we can reconcile this, though, by pointing out that Belial is referred to as both Master AND Grand Master.

 

But wait!

 

The fluff text for a Company Master (pg 36) uses different titles. A Company Master "bears honorific titles in addition to his rank". It's not Grand Master of the Watch, though... it's Captain of the Watch. It's not Grand Master of the Arsenal; it's Commander of the Arsenal.

 

And don't get me started on Belial's fluff article... whoever wrote that uses "Master" and "Grand Master" interchangeably. He even uses "current Grand Master of the Deathwing" and "previous Master of the Deathwing" in two different paragraphs.

 

What a headache!

 

So which way do we go?

 

Therefore (and this is personal take) given that the Inner Circle spans across the DA Primogenitors (and I assume all Successor Chapters) the position of the SGM can be filled by anyone member of the Inner Circle of any Unforgiven Chapter. Thus underlining the "secret Legion" theme.

... I don't think it's a coincidence that a Chapter Master of a Successor Chapter is only a Grand Master, whereas a highly-ranking officer subordinate to the Dark Angels Chapter Master is (assuming this isn't an editing error) a Grand Master himself. Given this, I feel very strongly about the "first among equals" status of the Dark Angels, wherein the Inner Circle does, in fact, extend to the Successors, but the rank of Supreme Grand Master can only be passed to a Dark Angel proper.

 

I would go so far as to posit that the equivalent officers of a Successor Chapter are only Masters, and NOT Grand Masters. For three reasons (that I can think of right now):

 

1. Firstly, it would compromise the chain of command for all high ranking members of a Successor Chapter's Inner Circle to be equals. E.g., the Chapter Master AND the Master of the Librarians are both Grand Masters.

2. The Dark Angels have been hinted to possess a great deal more resources than their Successors. Whether it's the Rock itself, or an Interrogator Chaplain showing up in "Sons of Fenris" to apprehend a lone Fallen with a Battle Barge under his command, I'd posit that the Dark Angels back the clout of their First Founding Chapter with a whole lot more punch than their Successors.

3. The Dark Angels are also given a great deal more responsibility than their Successors. Ezekiel isn't just Grand Master because he's in charge of the Chapter's Librarians. He bears the rank because he's in charge of guarding the dungeons within the Rock, and, vis-a-vis, ensuring the ensemble of captured Fallen can't escape. Can any Successor's equivalent claim the same? Sapphon isn't just in charge of the Dark Angels' Interrogator-Chaplains; he's in charge of the long-term interrogation of all the Fallen within the Rock. Can any Successor's equivalent claim the same? On both counts, I'd say no.

 

Belial is a member of the Inner Circle. A Grand Master. He is more than a tactical officer on the field - although he is that too. He shapes strategy as much as any other member of the Inner Circle. In the end of the day the SGM makes a call but if there is anything resembling a "war council" then Belial is in. For sure. So unless you are arguing that the SGM is meditating and then dictating policies and strategies to everybody else (which I doubt) then the Inner circle is the body that influnces (affects?) said strategies. Of course if you go by the notion that the SGM is just consulting the Watchers and announces his decisions to his minions then (although possible as there is little info on the subject) kind of defeats the purpose of having an Inner Circle.

No issues. My argument was more directed toward another poster, who I guessed believed that there was some sort of Deathwing-Deathwing equivalent relationship.

 

I don't know. It’s up to the SGM to decide. Belial sure is a good candidate. But there might be others.

Perhaps. But the Grandmaster of the Deathwing is the senior most combatant commander (as opposed to a Grand Master who is potentially holding an honorific or a static position) within the Dark Angels. He is also the combatant commander with the most active role in pursuing the Fallen. Admittedly, there will be exceptions to the rule.

 

Master Mary Sue sounds like the man!!! However I'm not sure that this should be an exception OR that there is a tradition there to be observed. Best thing is, Azrael might choose John Doe 4th Master of the Angels of Redemption. He seems like a decent fellow too.

No offense, I just can't really see this. That's just me, though!

 

Why not? Nothing in the fluff denies that - and it supports the "secret Legion" theme no end.

Oh, I know there's nothing in the fluff that denies it... just as there are no examples providing a precedent. ;)

 

Here's where I think "Secret Legion" goes:

1. There are the Dark Angels, and there are X number of Chapters descended from them.

2. In a brotherhood of equals, the Dark Angels are "first among equal" (legacy, possession of greatest resources, burden of most responsibility)

3. The Chapter Master of the Dark Angels is always the Supreme Grand Master

4. Each of the other Chapter Masters is a Grand Master subordinate to the Supreme Grand Master within the covert chain of command that is the Inner Circle

5. Each Chapter hunts the Fallen; the Supreme Grand Master can - and does - influence how they do so (tactics, limits, etc.)

6. In non-Hunt situations, the Supreme Grand Master can - and does - "request" the participation (or refusal to participate) of other Chapters... up to and including the Chapter's entire force

 

The Grand Master of the DW is definitely a good candidate. However there is no piece of fluff that points to a “tradition” or a “norm”.

It is, admittedly, an assumption of my own. :P

 

Here is another theory. I was thinking, how does the SGM informs the Chapter (Legion?) of his choice? Does he write it on a piece of paper in case he dies unexpectedly? He puts said paper in a safe? No. He reaches the decision under the influence of the Watchers. The latter being incredibly psychic must know best. So they advise the SGM and the latter takes their suggestions under serious consideration. When the SGM dies, the Watchers inform the Chapter officials of the SGM choice. Therefore said Master Mary Sue or Master John Doe are an equally possible choice as Belial.

 

This is my current theory.

My theory was far more simple. :)

 

Like you said, there are layers to the Inner Circle. The tip of it is the Supreme Grand Master, but the layer directly below probably involves Ezekiel and Sapphon. The former can read minds; the latter is a master of determining the truth and conviction in someone. I imagine the order of succession for the Chapter is an ongoing debate that is balanced by the candidates' service record and what the other two Grand Masters have to say.

 

This is interesting. One can imagine the situation that the Inner Circle comes to session on a regular basis. All members know each other. We do not know the level of cooperation between them but one can assume is close.

I think the reality of the Space Marines is that, more often than not, a Chapter has trouble getting its OWN portion of the Inner Circle in one place, at one time, regularly enough. I seriously doubt multiple Chapters are able to do so, especially if we're talking about a Secret Legion with as many as 50-100 Chapters.

 

I would imagine that meetings are infrequent at best, and that most communications are handled by envoys who are also members. Those envoys bring reports, deliver captured Fallen, and bring the guidance and orders of the Supreme Grand Master that involve in the Inner Circle. Non-covert matters and communications could be handled via Astropaths and such.

 

All the SGM need to do is command the Inner Circle not the squads on the ground.

I humbly disagree. What you propose certainly works if we only take into consideration the Fallen... but the Supreme Grand Master also commands the Dark Angels in conventional war as well. A commander who doesn't know his subordinate officers won't do as well.

 

Stobz pointed out that modern militaries switch commanders all the time, but there is a big difference between modern militaries and 40k. In the latter, the Dark Angels are ALWAYS at war. In the former, switching commanders in the middle of a campaign is more or less an emergency.

 

I don’t know, maybe? That’s why he is the SGM. To make such calls.

That's the precise reason that I don't think the Supreme Grand Master would come from outside the Dark Angels. Because all the Chapter Masters are not necessarily equipped to make those calls. And because of the importance placed on being a member of a First Founding/Primogenitor Chapter.

 

Again, though, this is nothing but conjecture and opinion on my part. :)

 

Cheers,

P.

[Captain Semper]

I'm sorry to all the successor players but to me you are just another Dark Angel using a different name to hide our secret ;)

 

Why are you sorry? This actually plays the Successors background up – not down. As opposed to say the UM or the BA successors where they are just an alternative paint scheme, the DAs successors are in fact a part of the whole (if you play the “secret Legion” theme) with more depth and character. If you subscribe to the view that the SGM might actually come from a Successor then you really have one Legion! It is to the DA players you should be apologizing for making them just one of the guys – at par with their successors – not necessarily first among equals (apart from carrying the old Legions name) but just equals. As an Unforgiven being “first among equals” is not a function of the Chapter you belong to but your standing in the Inner Circle – whatever the Chapter. If they are all DAs (with just different livery) then they are just that. Their command structure is not defined by the boundaries of the Chapter but from the boundaries of the Unforgiven.

 

 

The SGM and his 'watchers' can/could use promotion to reinforce a bond and to help bring the successors back into line with the parent chapters ideals. Risk is mitigated by choosing a 'moderate' to help swing things back into line. 10000 years is a long time for different groups to be expected to think exactly the same, it needs work at all levels(just like a marriage ;) ).

 

I think the Watchers are not given the credit they deserve… a lot of loose ends in the Unforgiven mythos can be solved if the Watchers are played correctly (background wise). I’m gonna start a thread on them to see what others think.

 

Whilst I agree with the 'First among equals' part, I also don't see it carved in stone. Entry and promotion is based on merit in our "Order".

2c B)

 

I thought you’d say “Whilst I agree with the 'First among equals' part – I don’t” hahaha! :lol:

 

First among equals kind of undermines the whole “Secret Legion” concept in my view. But that’s just me.

 

 

The master of the 4thDark company is Sheol. I wonder what happened to him?

 

You want to know about Sheol then? Step into this room brother, everything will be explained… *now, where did I put those blades of reason?* :lol:

 

If you buy into the legion idea, I would think simply that the title of "Grand" simply refers to an honorary title noting that person to be the 'first among equals'

 

I agree. If you subscribe to the Legion idea “First among equals” stems from the standing in the Inner Circle.

 

 

That having been said... what a convoluted mess.

 

I won’t have it any other way :lol:.

 

Four other Grand Masters are mentioned in page 14 of the 4E Codex: the Grand Masters of the Fleet, the Arsenal, the Watch, and the Recruits. It's tempting to assume that the Grand Master of the Recruits would be the commander of Tenth Company. Previous fluff also strongly implies that the remainder of the named titles would likely be assigned to Captains in command of other Companies. For instance, both "Nocturne" and the "Ultramarines" novels have a Company Captain as Master of the Fleet. "Rynn's World" has pretty much each of its Company Captains being a Master of something or another (Gates, Shield, Shadows, Siege, etc.). Codex: Space Marines has Kor'sarro Khan as Master of the Hunt.

 

 

What complicates things, though, is the fact that the very next paragraph on page 14 states that each of the Companies of the Dark Angels is led by a Master... not a Grand Master. One would think we can reconcile this, though, by pointing out that Belial is referred to as both Master AND Grand Master.

 

But wait!

 

The fluff text for a Company Master (pg 36) uses different titles. A Company Master "bears honorific titles in addition to his rank". It's not Grand Master of the Watch, though... it's Captain of the Watch. It's not Grand Master of the Arsenal; it's Commander of the Arsenal.

 

And don't get me started on Belial's fluff article... whoever wrote that uses "Master" and "Grand Master" interchangeably. He even uses "current Grand Master of the Deathwing" and "previous Master of the Deathwing" in two different paragraphs.

 

What a headache!

 

So which way do we go?

 

Both Codex SMs and BAs shows that company Captains have dual duties – one to be in charge of their Company and the other usually a Chapter-wide responsibility like Master of the Fleet, of the Watch, of Recruits etc. One can assume that the same applies for DAs where the rank of “Master” equates to the rank of “Captain” while the Chapter-wide responsibilities require the higher distinction of a “Grand Master”. So in this respect you can indeed claim that all (?) company Masters are also Grand Masters due to their Chapter-wide responsibilities. Although I have to count if the Chapter-wide positions (that carry the Grand Master distinction) are actually 9. If they are less then maybe there could be the odd Master who is not a Grand Master (fat chance).

 

The way I reconcile everything with p.36 is that Grand Master is an Inner Circle rank that does not necessarily need to be “…of something”. So you can get Grand Master Mary Sue of the DAs, Captain of Watch, Master of the 4th Company. Or Grand Master John Doe of the Consecrators, Commander of the Arsenal, Master of the 5th Company (I might have mixed the company numbers with the wrong titles – I don’t have the Codex handy). OR Grand Master Belial of the DAs, Master of the Deathwing.

 

Lame, I know. I think the entire p.36 needs a re-writing…

 

 

I would go so far as to posit that the equivalent officers of a Successor Chapter are only Masters, and NOT Grand Masters.

 

 

Wow!!! Stop! Heresy! Arrest this man! Repent traitor! Hahahaha!!! :P

 

 

Here's where I think "Secret Legion" goes:

1. There are the Dark Angels, and there are X number of Chapters descended from them.

2. In a brotherhood of equals, the Dark Angels are "first among equal" (legacy, possession of greatest resources, burden of most responsibility)

3. The Chapter Master of the Dark Angels is always the Supreme Grand Master

4. Each of the other Chapter Masters is a Grand Master subordinate to the Supreme Grand Master within the covert chain of command that is the Inner Circle

5. Each Chapter hunts the Fallen; the Supreme Grand Master can - and does - influence how they do so (tactics, limits, etc.)

6. In non-Hunt situations, the Supreme Grand Master can - and does - "request" the participation (or refusal to participate) of other Chapters... up to and including the Chapter's entire force

 

 

This could certainly be one way to see things… Actually the only point that I would disagree is the “first among equals”. I think you view the Unforgiven as a Legion with the DAs being the equivalent of the 1st Company. I see all Successors as having the potential (or the obligation) to offer their best candidates to all positions within the Unforgiven structure. If the best psycher comes from the AoR I don’t see why he will be excluded from the top job… Isn’t there meritocracy among the Unforgiven?

 

I know my view takes on the Legion theme maybe further than GW ever intended. Probably the new Codex will give some more hints as to the “secret Legion” theme but again nothing concrete.

 

 

My theory was far more simple. :D

 

Like you said, there are layers to the Inner Circle. The tip of it is the Supreme Grand Master, but the layer directly below probably involves Ezekiel and Sapphon. The former can read minds; the latter is a master of determining the truth and conviction in someone. I imagine the order of succession for the Chapter is an ongoing debate that is balanced by the candidates' service record and what the other two Grand Masters have to say.

 

However the decision of the SGM is not announced until the day of his death – No one knows before then. And it is not a product of collective responsibility – nor does it say anywhere that there is a body that assists the decision of the SGM. I just think that Watchers need to become more relevant in the DA 40k lore and this is an excellent opportunity.

[Brother_Darius]

That having been said... what a convoluted mess.

 

I won’t have it any other way ;).

 

 

I think that to some degree GW does this on purpose to "add" to the mystic around the Inner Circle. Keep the hierarch as ill defined. One of the things that Angels of Darkness shows is that the hierachy of the Inner Circle, within the inner circle themselves is not fully defined. The Int Chap doesn't even know that there is a fellow Inner Circle member amongst his midst.

 

What better way to give this air of ambiguous hierachy by using terms like Master and Grand Master willy nilly.

[Grand Master Belial]

Master = company captain

 

Grand master= chapter master and heads of the libarium and chaplains iirc (I'm sure it's just chapter master though)

 

Superem grand master= Head of the legion.

 

This sums it up.As for Belials 'grandl' argument,i believe it is granted due to the fact that he is master of the first company and thereby senior in rank in comparison to the 'regular' company masters.Although the ravenwing master should have a distinct title with that logic.Hm.....

 

Another idea for the Grand Master status for Belial is because Azrael IS the Supreme Grand Master. Whenever there is a Gathering of Angels, Azrael is leader of the unified Dark Angels Legion and Belial stands as the leader of the Dark Angels Chapter. In other words, he is the Proxy Chapter Master when Azrael's responsibilities take him above Chapter level.

 

This would lead that there are always three Grand Masters in each Chapter (Chapter, Chaplains & Librarians) but the Dark Angels chapter also has the Supreme Grand Master as well but at the cost of a Company Master (they would have 9 while other chapters would have 10)

[Interrogator Stobz]

I'm sorry to all the successor players but to me you are just another Dark Angel using a different name to hide our secret :D

 

Why are you sorry? This actually plays the Successors background up – not down. As opposed to say the UM or the BA successors where they are just an alternative paint scheme, the DAs successors are in fact a part of the whole (if you play the “secret Legion” theme) with more depth and character. If you subscribe to the view that the SGM might actually come from a Successor then you really have one Legion! It is to the DA players you should be apologizing for making them just one of the guys – at par with their successors – not necessarily first among equals (apart from carrying the old Legions name) but just equals. As an Unforgiven being “first among equals” is not a function of the Chapter you belong to but your standing in the Inner Circle – whatever the Chapter. If they are all DAs (with just different livery) then they are just that. Their command structure is not defined by the boundaries of the Chapter but from the boundaries of the Unforgiven.

Apology retracted ;) long live the I Legion B)

[Phoebus]

The SGM and his 'watchers' can/could use promotion to reinforce a bond and to help bring the successors back into line with the parent chapters ideals. Risk is mitigated by choosing a 'moderate' to help swing things back into line. 10000 years is a long time for different groups to be expected to think exactly the same, it needs work at all levels(just like a marriage ;) ).

That makes sense... but 40k is not necessarily about what makes sense. Legacy and heritage matter more than common sense to the Astartes. And there's this:

 

"... it is likely that there remain revelations known only to the holder of the title of Supreme Grand Master; the Chapter Master of the Dark Angels." (Codex: Dark Angels, pg 11)

 

Note that the page in question refers to Dark Angels history - the formation and development of the Inner Circle. I think it's very telling that it qualifies the Supreme Grand Master as being a specific officer... a specific Chapter Master, at that.

 

You want to know about Sheol then? Step into this room brother, everything will be explained… *now, where did I put those blades of reason?* :P

Nothing bad, alright? Sheol needs to be a decent sort who met a tragic end for my storyline to work out! :D

 

Both Codex SMs and BAs shows that company Captains have dual duties – one to be in charge of their Company and the other usually a Chapter-wide responsibility like Master of the Fleet, of the Watch, of Recruits etc. One can assume that the same applies for DAs where the rank of “Master” equates to the rank of “Captain” while the Chapter-wide responsibilities require the higher distinction of a “Grand Master”. So in this respect you can indeed claim that all (?) company Masters are also Grand Masters due to their Chapter-wide responsibilities. Although I have to count if the Chapter-wide positions (that carry the Grand Master distinction) are actually 9. If they are less then maybe there could be the odd Master who is not a Grand Master (fat chance).

 

The way I reconcile everything with p.36 is that Grand Master is an Inner Circle rank that does not necessarily need to be “…of something”. So you can get Grand Master Mary Sue of the DAs, Captain of Watch, Master of the 4th Company. Or Grand Master John Doe of the Consecrators, Commander of the Arsenal, Master of the 5th Company (I might have mixed the company numbers with the wrong titles – I don’t have the Codex handy). OR Grand Master Belial of the DAs, Master of the Deathwing.

 

Lame, I know. I think the entire p.36 needs a re-writing…

For my part, I don't think a Captain/Master is also a Grand Master, but I DO agree that there was poor editing regarding how pgs 14 and 36 are concerned. That having been said, could there be an exception here or there? I suppose. Ultimately, though, it weighs very heavily on my cranium that a Chapter Master of the Unforgiven is a Grand Master... and thus I have a hard time seeing more than one or two Dark Angels (other than Belial, Ezekiel, and Sapphon) holding that rank. That is, for the same reasons that I have a hard time seeing any non-Chapter Master of a Successor Chapter being a Grand Master (though I am willing to accept the exception to the rule)... reasons that I've stated previously (scale of responsibility within the Inner Circle, etc.).

 

I think you view the Unforgiven as a Legion with the DAs being the equivalent of the 1st Company.

Yes, exactly. I don't pretend that this is either fair or very sensical, but I think that one damning line from the Codex reinforces a theme that has been prevalent throughout Astartes lore.

 

Isn’t there meritocracy among the Unforgiven?

I don't think there's meritocracy among the Astartes as a whole, where certain issues are concerned.

 

First Company Captains have been shouting down others and unfairly swinging their weight for as long as there have been Black Library novels. The Salamanders were ready to condemn their most powerful psyker based on one's interpretation of an ancient prophecy (even though an equally valid interpretation would have been "Absolutely in no case should you kill this psyker!") - are the Dark Angels less stressed about their heritage? Grimaldus, in "Helsreach" more than once dismisses "lesser Chapters" based on their genealogy. There's numerous examples. It's part and parcel of the curse of 40k: the Imperium is not progressive; common sense does not rule; ritual and the mysticism of the past are everything.

 

I doubt your vision exceeds that of GW, though. I think enough hints are given (vis-a-vis the Inner Circle and the authority the Supreme Grand Master has through it) to imply that the Unforgiven are far more cohesive than, say, the Ultramarines and their scions. To say nothing of the Blood Angels and their own Successors - can you even imagine Azrael having to convince the Angels of Absolution or the Concecrators to do anything? Not in a million years, in my eyes!

 

However the decision of the SGM is not announced until the day of his death – No one knows before then. And it is not a product of collective responsibility – nor does it say anywhere that there is a body that assists the decision of the SGM. I just think that Watchers need to become more relevant in the DA 40k lore and this is an excellent opportunity.

Well, it goes back to the whole "it doesn't say they DON'T do this, either" bit. Even if it were an ongoing debate, there would still be a frontrunner and alternates in any such conversation.

 

Not that I am averse to the Watchers playing a role. At the very least, I imagine they would validate the announced choice. See my post on your Watchers thread for more of this.

 

Cheers,

P.

[Captain Semper]

Ummm, your first quote? That was actually Stobz. I don’t mind but, you know the 7-foot tall, all-black (;)) armoured, marriage counsellor with the jump pack and crozius? He might! You really want him on your side :D

[captain Angel]

In my opinion, a grand master is a successor chapter's leader. He leads the chapter and is one of the higher members of the inner circle

[Phoebus]

Ummm, your first quote? That was actually Stobz. I don’t mind but, you know the 7-foot tall, all-black (;)) armoured, marriage counsellor with the jump pack and crozius? He might! You really want him on your side :lol:

Damnation! :D

[Interrogator Stobz]

Ummm, your first quote? That was actually Stobz. I don’t mind but, you know the 7-foot tall, all-black (;)) armoured, marriage counsellor with the jump pack and crozius? He might! You really want him on your side :lol:

Damnation! :D

You might need to get your 'servitor' recalibrated ;)

[Captain Semper]

I'm not entirely happy with the "First Among Equals" take. I think the Unforgiven are build upon a egaliterian system based on meritocracy - according to their own standards of course.

 

The SGM is always the Chapter Master of the Dark Angels. I do not debate that. Whether he was actually a member of the DAs before he assumed the position is another question. In fact Azrael’s personal story is hazy, we do not know what he was doing for a large period of time, if I recall correctly. In this period he might have joined other Unforgiven Chapters for all we know. So everything is open to personal interpretation.

 

I’d like to think of the Unforgiven as co-centric circles. The centre of all the circles is the SGM. Then there are (at least) three: the Inner, the Deathwing and the Unforgiven as a whole. The Chapters can be seen as sections defined by the radius of the outer-most circle originating from the centre, cutting the circle in a pie-like fashion. The pieces of the pie are the Chapters. However there is an added element. The Inner Circle is a common body to all Unforgiven, without distorting the boundaries of the Chapters. This could also mean possible mobility of Inner Circle members throughout the Unforgiven chapters while retaining a clear position in the covert structure of the Unforgiven (their distance from the Deathwing and the SGM is unchanged).

 

See schematic below:

 

 

http://i1204.photobucket.com/albums/bb402/ackool/Slide1-1.jpg

 

 

I think that each Unforgiven chapter has equal standing and the Grand Masters of the Unforgiven are distributed among the various Chapters more or less evenly. In my view the Inner Circle members although they nominally belong to a Chapter they actually see themselves as officers of the old Legion and it would even be possible to move from Chapter to Chapter if the need arises - heretical enough or what?

 

The problem I see with the “First Among Equals” theme is that it doesn’t mean much. If it meant anything then a lowly Consecrator's sergeant might wonder why this is the case – why are DAs any better than them? The whole secrecy of the Legion would be in jeopardy. So I guess they don’t know. The Inner Circle guys already know they are all DAs and the divisions are just for “regulatory compliance” purposes so it doesn’t matter to them either. So which group would be the one to recognize the DAs as first among equals? Once in the Inner Circle you see the DAs for what they are: a Legion and all the resources are centralised. The Rock is a point of reference for all Unforgiven and the protection of its secrets is the responsibility of the Inner Circle - not the odd DA marine. And the Inner Circle originates from all Unforgiven Chapters. The DAs carry the name of the Legion. It is important but not overly so.

 

Funnily enough, with the thin info we have on the structure of the original DA Legion (despite two HH novels – just shows how irrelevant they both were :confused:) there was no elite 1st Chapter (Company). At least it is not mentioned. There might have been one mind you, but it is not mentioned. In fact an equality culture permeates the old Legion (back from the days of the Order) and meritocracy prevails. Unless the Lion doesn’t like you :blink:. But unquestionable loyalty to the Lion is merit in its own right.

 

Back to 40k I think that the better qualified individuals would probably rise to the top irrespective of the nominal Chapter they belong to. And I believe the Watchers will make sure of that!!!

[Vazzy]

So, here's a question, as it is related to this topic. If Azrael and Belial went down in the same battle,who would takeover? Sammy, or someone who is selected as a successor by the Watchers?

[Captain Semper]

So, here's a question, as it is related to this topic. If Azrael and Belial went down in the same battle,who would takeover? Sammy, or someone who is selected as a successor by the Watchers?

 

Well, if Azrael goes down then his successor takes over. Belial (unless he is the chosen successor) doesn't matter. He is not the second in command, there is no second in command. The structure is circular - not pyramidic.

 

Now how this successor is revealed is unclear but he has to be the one chosen by Azrael. When does the SGM decide upon this and how he makes sure his decision is revealed after he dies is not clear. That's why I'd say the Watchers will probably be the custodians of this knowledge and reveal it to the Inner Circle (or the appointed members of the Inner Circle). Because, let's face it, the chances the SGM dies of old age are slim :confused: .

 

EDIT: Sorry - I misunderstood you! You meant to say what happens if the SGM and whoever the successor is die at the same battle? That is a difficult one - no ready answer... Maybe the SGM is giving like three names in order of preference? Don't know...

[WatchCaptainAzrael]

"When the Dark Angels do undertake joint operations alongside other Chapters, it is quite common for them to do so with others amongst the so-called “Unforgiven”—the Successors of the original Dark Angels Legion. The Successors of the Legion maintain especially close relations, their officers all being members of the Inner Circle. This mysterious body provides a ready-made command network that the Unforgiven Chapters can utilise to great effect when coordinating their activities. There is no presumption that the leaders of the Dark Angels have any inherent superiority over those of the other Unforgiven Chapters. Rather, the leaders work together closely, and if needed elect one of their number as nominal commander for the duration of the campaign. In one matter, however, the officers of the Dark Angels have superiority over those of the other Unforgiven Chapters, through the workings of the Inner Circle—the Hunt for the Fallen. When hunting those turncoat Dark Angels who escaped the Fall of Caliban, the Unforgiven operate under the auspices of the highest ranked of the Inner Circle, and the very highest of these is the Supreme Grand Master himself— the Chapter Master of the Dark Angels."

 

Quoted from Deathwatch: First Founding, page 46

[Captain Semper]

Aaaaargh! I want the Deathwatch: First Founding today!!!! It must still be in the post. ;)

 

All the above makes perfect sense to me.