Building an "all comers" GK list...

[neonfunk]

so... as the topic begs, if you had to build an all comers list, what would you like to include in it?

 

Please also explain why such units would be warranted in the list.

 

 

I'd also like to extend, and thereby explore the concept of building a balanced/competitive list. What are the general "attributes" that you are looking for when you go though your GK Codex to pick these units?

 

I'm relatively new into the scene after a long hiatus, I would like to gather as much information as possible before I make my final purchases to complete my army, so I'm grateful for any advice. Sine I have been visiting forums, I've discovered a trend in competitive list building. It seems, that MSU (an acronym that I recently familiariesed myself with - although I did have an inkling on what it was when i first saw it, and it turned out I was right.

 

What I am seeing, are "internet lists", that would bear resemblance to something such as:

 

HQ: INquisitor, GM, libby, whatever.... this part of the FOC is actually irrelevant to my querie. The Relevant part would be:

 

Troops : 8 x GKSS, psycannon, etc... RHINO

8 x GKSS, psycannon, etc... RHINO

8 x GKSS, psycannon, etc... RHINO

8 x GKSS, psycannon, etc... RHINO

 

Elites: 6 x Purifiers etc... RAZORBACK

6 x Purifiers etc... RAZORBACK

 

Heavy Support: 3 x Psyfelman Dreads

 

:P :lol: :lol: ^_^ <_<

 

So, I guess my question is, does a competitive/all-comers list must abide by these configurations? e.g. redundancy ... Because to be honest, it is an utterly boring and lacklustre build. I mean, if such a list is made, then why should we bother playing grey knights at all? Might as well play Ultramarines if all you're gonna do is spam troops in that fashion. When I first picked up my GK codex, I loved that variability and "X" factor. With lists this like these, it totally shatters that perception for me. That is why I must ask, is the reason why lists of this guile manifest, due to the fact that it would be the most competitive build??? i.e. its built purely on the foundations of efficiency? Or am I missing something? Because If I am, Rhino Rush really doesnt seem like a "advanced/competitve" modus operandi

 

N.B If the answer is yes, I'd still deviate from my unorthodox Karamazov build (who's inclusion is due to fluff reasons, plus the model is simply beautiful), but I would just like to gain some insight on why such unimaginative lists are abundant.

 

Thank you sincerely in advance for any replies...

 

BTW, I have included a rough skeleton to my lists, which IMO "does justice" to the codex - just because there is a little bit of everything, and not much of something else, doesnt mean that there is no cohesive plan in action.

 

A rough 2K list:

 

HQ:

1) Karamazov

2) Libby, 3 x servo skulls

 

Fast Attack:

 

1) 5 x GKI's, 1 Psycannon, 1 Halberd, 1 Daemonhammer ,2 Swords

 

Troops:

1) 10 x GKSS, 2 Psycannons, Psybolt Ammo, 3 Halberds, 2 Daemonhammers, 3 Swords

2) 10 x GKT, 2 Psycannons, 3 Halberds, 3 Sword, 2 Daemonhammers, Psybolt ammo, brotherhood banner

 

Heavy Support:

 

1) Psyfleman Dreadnought

2) Dreadknight w/ PT, Heavy Incinerator

3) Purgation Squad x 5, 3 Psycannons, Rhino

Henchies:

 

3 x Crusaders

Dedicated Transport: Chimera

 

35 Infantry

3 Vehicles

1 Monstrous Creature

 

- Every unit has their role. I would obviously like to increase the redundancy, but you can't have everything. But yeah, it's just a rough skeleton. And I realise it's weakness.... If Karamazov dies early for some reason, I'd be in an uncomfortable position. So the option to ditch the GKI's to get a ven dread or vindicare is open.

[Gentlemanloser]

OK, some thoughts.

 

Rhinos and Razorbacks provide some additional clought, but they are currently very easy to kill. So leave them at home.

 

We don't get Melta. But we don't need it. Psycannons are an amazing all round, multi purpose weapon.

 

So, maximise the Psycannons you can bring.

 

Don't plan to rely on Psychic Powers at all. But a Libby would be nice for the Hood.

 

The Grand Strategy is awesome. If you can, fit a GM in, just for it.

 

Grey Knights aren't an assault force, but are potent in assault. We can use that to our advantage, and (especially with Halberds and CF) make people think twice aobut assulting us.

 

The Vindicare is also an awesome 'all comers' unit.

 

 

So, how can we maximise the Psycannons we bring?

 

The options;

 

Paladin: 315 points for 2 Psycannons. 157.5 points per Psycannon.

Purifiers: 140 points for 2 Psycannon. 70 points per.

Terminators: 225 points for 1 Psycannon.

Strikes: 110 points for 1 Psycannon.

Purgators: 180 points for 4 Psycannons. 45 points per.

Razorbacks: 85 points for 1 Psycannon.

Dreads: 130 points per Psycannon.

 

So, the hands down winner of Psycannons per points are the Purgators. If you want to field as many as possible, then this is your usint to use. Unsurprisingly, after them are the 'all rounders' of the Dex. The Purifiers. They have better CC, anti Horde in CF and are fearless.

 

Thier drawback? Crowe. If you want to field 4 units of Purifiers as Troops, they cost an extra 37.5 points each. 6 costs an extra 25. So if you plan to take 6 squads of them, you can change thier cost to 165 points for 2 Psycannons, or 82.5 per psycannon. Bringing them up to Razorback costs. :huh:

 

So, some options.

 

If you want an all comers list, with Psycannons, then let's start with something like;

 

HQ: (190)

GKGM, Psycho-nades

 

HQ: (175)

Libby, Servo Skull x3, Shrouding, Sanctuary

 

(This rules out Crowe, so we can only take Purifiers as Elite slots)

 

Elite: (145)

Vindicare

 

Elite: (140)

Purifier x5, Psycannon x2

Elite: (140)

Purifier x5, Psycannon x2

 

Troop: (110)

Strike x5, Psycannon

Troop: (110)

Strike x5, Psycannon

Troop: (110)

Strike x5, Psycannon

Troop: (110)

Strike x5, Psycannon

Troop: (110)

Strike x5, Psycannon

Troop: (110)

Strike x5, Psycannon

 

Heavy: (180)

Purgator x5, Psycannon x4

Heavy: (180)

Purgator x5, Psycannon x4

Heavy: (180)

Purgator x5, Psycannon x4

 

Total: 1,990

 

55 Marines with S5 Force Weapons. 3 units with CF for Hordes. A PH, 7-9 scoring units. And a staggering 22 Psycannons.

 

With a Vindicare to pop AV14 or Hidden Fists.

 

How's that for a stab at an all comers list? :P

[Something Wycked]

so... as the topic begs, if you had to build an all comers list, what would you like to include in it?

Mobility, Stormbolters, Psybolts, Psycannons, and Nemesis Force Weapons ;)

 

What are the general "attributes" that you are looking for when you go though your GK Codex to pick these units?

First and foremost, I want mobility in my Grey Knights list because their range is their weakness, in my mind. 24" can reach a long way, but a canny opponent can dance out of reach if they have superior mobility.

 

What I am seeing, are "internet lists", that would bear resemblance to something such as:

...

So, I guess my question is, does a competitive/all-comers list must abide by these configurations? e.g. redundancy ... Because to be honest, it is an utterly boring and lacklustre build...

The "standard" competitive lists abide by these configurations, yes. But take heart!

 

That is why I must ask, is the reason why lists of this guile manifest, due to the fact that it would be the most competitive build??? i.e. its built purely on the foundations of efficiency?

These standard competitive lists are built purely on the foundations of efficiency. The people who make the lists like that use mathematics and statistics and they find out what is the most efficient use of points- on paper. The only nod they give towards honest table top tactics is that MSU armies can be difficult to handle because they have so many targets to choose from.

 

Rhino Rush really doesnt seem like a "advanced/competitve" modus operandi... I would just like to gain some insight on why such unimaginative lists are abundant.

It really isn't advanced at all- its as simple as possible, for good reason. Anybody can pick up one of these lists and perform decently well with it, which is what makes it competitive. People who are truly skilled in its use can be absolutely no fun to play against, since their ultra-efficient list is being handled by a master.

 

HQ:

1) Karamazov (general purpose shooting)

2) Libby, 3 x servo skulls (general purpose)

 

Fast Attack:

 

1) 5 x GKI's, 1 Psycannon, 1 Halberd, 1 Daemonhammer ,2 Swords (mobility, general purpose)

 

Troops:

1) 10 x GKSS, 2 Psycannons, Psybolt Ammo, 3 Halberds, 2 Daemonhammers, 3 Swords (All-purpose)

2) 10 x GKT, 2 Psycannons, 3 Halberds, 3 Sword, 2 Daemonhammers, Psybolt ammo, brotherhood banner (All-purpose)

 

Heavy Support:

 

1) Psyfleman Dreadnought (long range shooting anti-tank)

2) Dreadknight w/ PT, Heavy Incinerator (mobility, assault, anti-infantry & light-med tank)

3) Purgation Squad x 5, 3 Psycannons, Rhino (mid range shooting anti-tank)

 

Henchies:

3 x Crusaders (survivability)

Dedicated Transport: Chimera

 

- Every unit has their role. I would obviously like to increase the redundancy, but you can't have everything. But yeah, it's just a rough skeleton. And I realise it's weakness.... If Karamazov dies early for some reason, I'd be in an uncomfortable position. So the option to ditch the GKI's to get a ven dread or vindicare is open.

Yep, every unit has their role, and you have a fair bit of redundancy in your list as well without using the same unit more than once, much less spamming anything. I like it ^_^

 

The most important thing for any list is that you are both comfortable with and skilled at executing the play style. Even if you're not to that point yet with this list, you will get there with practice. You have enough anti-tank to stand a chance at beating anything but the ultra-competitive lists that bring as many cheap vehicles as possible. I say roll with it ;)

[The Holy Heretic]

Redundancy really isn't about spammin' the same units over and over again. Its about having multiple solutions to deal with the same challenges. E.g. to reliably deal with 2+/3+ saves, knights have to use their force weapons, since their shooting doesn't get better than AP4, however adding henchmen to the army gives access to plasma weaponry (which especially will come in handy, when you encounter a Draigowing list) both options are a viable solution to deal with the same problem, adding both however allows a list to deal with various opponents in various ways - to make an example, you could face a purifier spam list; if you yourself is just dumping purifiers on the table, the game is basically decided, when you roll the die for 1st turn, should you on the other hand have a wider selection of models/options, then you'd be able to make a more complex battle plan, where you can take advantage of your opponents shortcomings.

 

The goal is to have synergy between your units, so they are able to compensate each other for their individual weaknesses, while considering multiple ways to deal with the same obstacles, and not being forced to rely on a particular unit or combination - the death star syndrome.

 

So if you're afraid of losing the big K, your list is too weak ;)

[Gentlemanloser]

Why split between Plasma and Melta weapons, and give your opponent obvious targets (tank heavy, kill your meltas asap. 2+ heaver, go for the plasma guys), when you could saturate him with Psycannons and do both?

 

S7 Rending. Awesome at popping just about anything, and makes the Deldar tremble. ;)

[Inquisitor Fox]

I would argue the reason you see a lot of the same copy/paste 'net lists is because people don't have or use their own preferences and imaginations. A lot of people simply want to be given an answer, any answer, that works with minimal effort. I prefer to think of such lists as a "starter box" or a "starter deck" for the CCG people. It's something that works relatively well and is easy to build or customize away from.

 

There are two different approaches I would recommend. Either

 

A: start in theory and work on paper with stuff you don't have yet

or

B: build a small list (500 to 750 points) and begin to grow out from it as you play games and discover things you "need".

 

Option A: I start with 2 Troops and 1 HQ. I equip them as to my preference. I then begin to look for unit "roles" that I don't have done yet. I need some solution to close combat or a counter-charge. I need some solution to handling armor. I need some solution to score and/or contest objectives far away from me. I need some type of long range fire support. I then begin adding units to help me accomplish these things (sometimes taking a single "choice" that handles two or three of these roles, such as a Storm Raven). I add units and fiddle with things until I am at my desired points limit.

 

Option B: I start with 2 Troops and 1 HQ. This is usually enough to get you to 500 to 750 points depending on the army you are playing. I then start playing games against other forces! I begin to take note of "weak points" in my own army list, and try to purchase or expand into units that help address those weak points. As an example, when I was first starting with my Witch Hunters forces, I started with a unit of Sisters, a unit of ISTs, my Inquisitor with close combat retinue, some Seraphim, some Retributors. As I began to play games I noticed a few problems. My Inquisitor and retinue kept getting shot before they reached combat, giving me a very small unit by the time they were engaged, and I had a decided lack of anti-tank and long ranged firepower (the Retributors being a notable exception). So I began to add things to address these issues. I added an Exorcist (helped I received it from my Parents for Christmas.. as they looked at the list of GW things I gave them, talked with the guys at the store, and picked the one they thought was the "coolest sounding"), added Chimeras to my 2 IST units then got some auto-cannon turrets from Forge World and Inquisition rear doors and bits to make them neat looking (using IA2 rules on the turret), and added a Land Raider (with Forge World extra armor and Inquisition doors) as both a transport for my HQ, as well as an anti-armor long range firepower unit.

 

I began to have a good deal of success with my list, as it both contained units I liked, as well as things that I needed to address weak points and other roles.

 

Now granted, I have to start over as there's been 2 new Codices for my army but I plan on working much the same. Starting small or with lists I can field (smaller on the Sisters side, lists I can field for the Grey Knights) and seeing what weak points I have and tweaking as I go along or adding units that I just want to play with because I think they're neat (Here's lookin' at you, Dreadknight and Storm Raven!).

 

I've got "goals" lists that I currently am thinking of building towards, but they're just that... foggy goals. They're subject to change, or roster moves as I decide I want an Interceptor unit to both be in the list, as well as something workable for Kill Team, with the same models :D I'm kind of funny like that...

 

Ultimately though, as you play you begin to realize what works for YOU, and customize your "starter box" into a force that suits your own attributes, playstyle, desires, etc. That's why you don't see a lot of variation in the "starter lists" because people can't tell you what works for you ahead of time.

 

Now, for reference, here are my current ideas or build-to's that I plan on working with for Sisters and Grey Knights:

 

1500 Points Sisters of Battle (rev.): my current work towards list

 

My own current 2000 point goal: likewise without GM, Crowe, Paladins or Purifiers!

 

The Inquisition list is currently having the most fine tweaking done as I attempt to make fluffy fun Retinues... like I'm currently considering adding a meaningless DCA to one of the Retinues simply so I can have a Harlequin Eldar with two power weapons for Illuminati fluff reasons ;)

[the jeske]

why do people think that after reading the dex , most people with tanks and mass psycannons [or any other form of good list] are taking it from the net. Does it realy take the whole interent to notice that razorbacks which cant be stun locked are awesome . two auto cannons with rending which can be assault in a single weapon and unlike my EC blast master they dont cost 40pts ,whats there to think about . they are clearly very good

 

 

 

 

B: build a small list (500 to 750 points) and begin to grow out from it as you play games and discover things you "need".

I have a problem with that kind of list building . it tells close to nothing about what the game looks like when normal points are played . would anyone play a 5 landspeeder 2x5naked scout army x2 in 1500 ? If someone decideds to get an army based around paladins or purfis [or bikes , or cult troops for chaos , or termis for DW etc] the only thing they will find out starting at 500-750 is that the armies dont work at all and/or are border line unplayable [and quit which is bad] or worse they make a build which may work in 500 , but will never work in 1500 or more [and they quit too but after buying a lot more models . people who lose more cash generaly dont come back to the game].

[Inquisitor Fox]

Allow me to clarify a bit: I don't mean build a list designed purely to function at 500 or 750 points. I mean take the "core" of a 1,500 or 2,000 point list (typically 2 Troops, an HQ, and often 1 "extra" unit) and play games with it. See where the holes are. This will help you spend the other 1,000 points or so.

 

This approach works better for some armies than others. It may not be the approach for you. I've found it useful though in my own experience. I start with the "basics" then expand gradually. It also works nicely for a gamer on a budget that can only add a box or two every couple of months. It lets you grow and add things without having to shell out several hundred dollars simply to be able to even try playing the game.

[neonfunk]

Dear Gentlemanloser (and everyone else of course):

 

OK, some thoughts.

 

Rhinos and Razorbacks provide some additional clought, but they are currently very easy to kill. So leave them at home.

 

We don't get Melta. But we don't need it. Psycannons are an amazing all round, multi purpose weapon.

 

So, maximise the Psycannons you can bring.

 

Don't plan to rely on Psychic Powers at all. But a Libby would be nice for the Hood.

 

The Grand Strategy is awesome. If you can, fit a GM in, just for it.

 

Grey Knights aren't an assault force, but are potent in assault. We can use that to our advantage, and (especially with Halberds and CF) make people think twice aobut assulting us.

 

The Vindicare is also an awesome 'all comers' unit.

 

 

So, how can we maximise the Psycannons we bring?

 

The options;

 

Paladin: 315 points for 2 Psycannons. 157.5 points per Psycannon.

Purifiers: 140 points for 2 Psycannon. 70 points per.

Terminators: 225 points for 1 Psycannon.

Strikes: 110 points for 1 Psycannon.

Purgators: 180 points for 4 Psycannons. 45 points per.

Razorbacks: 85 points for 1 Psycannon.

Dreads: 130 points per Psycannon.

 

So, the hands down winner of Psycannons per points are the Purgators. If you want to field as many as possible, then this is your usint to use. Unsurprisingly, after them are the 'all rounders' of the Dex. The Purifiers. They have better CC, anti Horde in CF and are fearless.

 

Thier drawback? Crowe. If you want to field 4 units of Purifiers as Troops, they cost an extra 37.5 points each. 6 costs an extra 25. So if you plan to take 6 squads of them, you can change thier cost to 165 points for 2 Psycannons, or 82.5 per psycannon. Bringing them up to Razorback costs.

 

So, some options.

 

If you want an all comers list, with Psycannons, then let's start with something like;

 

HQ: (190)

GKGM, Psycho-nades

 

HQ: (175)

Libby, Servo Skull x3, Shrouding, Sanctuary

 

(This rules out Crowe, so we can only take Purifiers as Elite slots)

 

Elite: (145)

Vindicare

 

Elite: (140)

Purifier x5, Psycannon x2

Elite: (140)

Purifier x5, Psycannon x2

 

Troop: (110)

Strike x5, Psycannon

Troop: (110)

Strike x5, Psycannon

Troop: (110)

Strike x5, Psycannon

Troop: (110)

Strike x5, Psycannon

Troop: (110)

Strike x5, Psycannon

Troop: (110)

Strike x5, Psycannon

 

Heavy: (180)

Purgator x5, Psycannon x4

Heavy: (180)

Purgator x5, Psycannon x4

Heavy: (180)

Purgator x5, Psycannon x4

 

Total: 1,990

 

55 Marines with S5 Force Weapons. 3 units with CF for Hordes. A PH, 7-9 scoring units. And a staggering 22 Psycannons.

 

With a Vindicare to pop AV14 or Hidden Fists.

 

How's that for a stab at an all comers list?

 

Thats a VERY good list for an all comers build.... and thank you, because your post (and others) have made me realise that these "MSU" lists, while clearly unimaginative, ARE actually VERY good lists, because they are literally ^^ (with your mathammer) based upon efficiency and redundancy.

 

So thank you for confirming all of that to me, I am greatly appreciative.

 

It's just that this monotonous approach of spamming units (im not in any way arguing that it's the incorrect or correct thing to do when it comes to list buildiing), is something that I cannot undertake. Maybe it's just a rookie mistake, and that maybe one day, i'll "see the light", and i'll have to relent to the "laws" of competive list building. But for now, I'm looking forward to do some unorthodox/comparatively more exotic lists than MSU - and saying this might get me in some heat, but strictly IMO - the GK codex provides us with a plethora of units to chose from- each with their strengths and weakness, and of course THE SYNERGY that puts it all together. It's the reason why I wanted to play GK. If I am to just revert back to "3 x 10 man GKSS rhino", and the ubiqutous "3 x Psyfledread" type lists, then to me, it really does shatter the experience for me. We should just go play vanilla/ultramarines, as I truly do not believe that a list such as the one gentlemanloser posted (remember, I am not criticisng his list per se - It's a good list) It's just utterly monotonous, because it is purely based on points efficiency, math hammer, redundancy, etc... When taken all these "attributes" into account, what we see is the culmination of said attributes and it consequentially manifests into a MSU spam list. I've said it once, and ill say it again - MSU or even larger squads that employ this spam is effective, but at the same time, it's imaginatively dull.

 

Is there NOT any other way to be competitive without resorting to to spam??? (and yes, i know that this question would entail a convoluted and in depth rationale type of answer)

[RedemptionNL]

Aye, I am in the same mindset as yourself. Not only is buying the same model over and over monotonous to build, paint and watch, it's also a decent investment in models that really only lets you play one list. And as I like to change my lists around to keep things new, I usually have no more than a 2 or 3 instances of a unit.

 

And thankfully we are not alone. If you want some inspiration for competitive non-spam GK lists, make sure you check out Crynn's battle reports. Very informative and the list on the first page doesn't even have a single duplicate unit yet fares very well. ;)

[Gentlemanloser]

Neonfunk, I think your confusion is that I actually do, or would, run a list like the above. :P

 

I don't.

 

I love Paladins, and dislike GKT (after years of longing to run a pure TDA list /sigh). I love Mordraks and NDKs. I configure my lists with these personal choices in mind, and to have fun.

 

I don't use a Vindicare, as my opponents despise them.

 

But.

 

You asked;

 

if you had to build an all comers list, what would you like to include in it?

 

Please also explain why such units would be warranted in the list.

 

And I answered. ;)

 

If you want 'all comers' then the GK can't really do better than to spam Psycannons. As many as you can get your hands on.

 

Probably the best 'all comers' list is actually a variaiton on Steleks recent Crowe list, as Purifiers are the best all round unit in the book. Without a shadow of a doubt.

 

I just wanted to show a list inclduing other 'all comer' no brainers, like a Psychic Hood and TGS (which rule out Crowe for a Purifier list), and a Vindicare. ;)

 

If you don't want to use multile Identical Units, then don't. ;)

[Lady_Canoness]

It is my experience that an 'all-comers' list boils down not to what is in the list, but how the general uses the list. For example, as a general, you must be confident that your list can adapt to any particular style of play and overcome the challenges it will face. No list can guarantee that - only someone who knows how to handle their list can. That is the test of an 'all-comers' list: the general can use it to overcome any foe.

 

To me, that means that the all-comers list isn't the kind of list that spams units and focuses on redundancy, instead I think of it as a tool-box list that has a lot of different units with different abilities.

I think of it like this:

The spam list will confront a problem with a hammer - if the hammer doesn't work, then the spam list will use another hammer, and another, and another... until either there are no hammers left, or the problem is overcome.

The tool-box list will confront a problem with a hammer - if the hammer doesn't work, then the tool-box list will try a wrench, or any other tool that fits the bill, until the problem is overcome.

A spam list hopes that it is generically powerful enough to overcome the enemy.

A tool-box list hopes that one or more of the tools it brought will be useable to overcome the enemy in any number of ways.

 

In game terms, a spam list might be something like this: a space marine army composing mostly of tacticals packing lots of plasma and melta. Whereas a tool-box could be a GK list with no identical units whatsoever. I played a game like this just a couple weeks back, and while the space marines tried to hammer me to dust with melta and plasma (which would likely have overcome any type of hammer-list I could bring) I promptly disassembled his tacticals between a squad of deepstriking terminators (with an attached librarian) and a squad of outflanking paladins (thanks to TGS). People could argue that I should have been shot to bits, but due to generalship I was not, and thanks to the diversity in a list, I could count on more ways to overcome my opponent than just one.

 

In short, I think it is to your advantage to take a diverse list as an 'all-comers' force instead of a spam list. Also, in my experience, people who use internet-based lists often don't know how to use them since they don't have any inherent affinity towards how the list is played.

 

My thoughts on the matter.

[Something Wycked]

Pure gold in text.

[the jeske]

Is there NOT any other way to be competitive without resorting to to spam??? (and yes, i know that this question would entail a convoluted and in depth rationale type of answer)

well you can play a death star. considering that the main unit [or units if someone plays 2k+pts] cost around 500-600pts each sometimes more , there is not enough pts to get actual spaming . thats why some paladin builds run single venerable dreads , not because those are awesome or better then regulars . nope they buy them because there isnt enough points to buy 2 and the utilty of the ven dread is better then buying a normal one and lets say a paladin with a sword.

 

 

 

Allow me to clarify a bit: I don't mean build a list designed purely to function at 500 or 750 points. I mean take the "core" of a 1,500 or 2,000 point list (typically 2 Troops, an HQ, and often 1 "extra" unit) and play games with it. See where the holes are. This will help you spend the other 1,000 points or so.

ok but how does that even work 1 hq and 2 troops for many armies are not 500/750pts . for example for nids I would have to take a prime a tervigon and some guants . and it would also mean that If I want to use the same models , I have to go for a nid deathstar because no other nid army uses primes .

Same with meq for example for chaos I will nto fit 2 troops and an HQ in to the list ,if I suppose to use them later in a 1500 or more points list unless I pick 2x5pms [would still have to magnetize the arment as in to 500 pts I wont fit the upgrades or the rhinos. It would also mean that I would be learning to use something that is used in a totaly different way in non 500pts games] and even then the DP would have to be naked . IF someone decided he doesnt want to use pms , well he is screwed then . no way to build a 500pts army that would use the same models at 1500+.

 

But to be more GK specific . What does a new player learn from runing 1hq and 2 troops using GK . A GM suck ,they cant ride in rhinos or razorbacks , are slow their buffs dont realy help the units . same with librarians or terminator armored INQ . A brotherhood champion is way "better" . then the same person takes the list to 1000 or 1500 adds some support maybe one elite unit , and suddenly the champion sucks the strikes have to be bigger . This is why am saying that trying to build a 500pts army [doesnt matter if tailored for 500pts games or trying to use some of the unit in later biger armies] doesnt realy help much . Even for someone who played marines before it may force wrong conclusions . in 500pts games using strikes someone may realy think that GK are an assault army .

[Inquisitor Fox]

I have yet to find an army that cannot fill two decent quality Troops spots AND an HQ for 750 points tops. I will acknowledge that some armies cannot do so in 500 points, but 750 is plenty sufficient to do so.

 

Let's take a Grey Knight army, since you asked.

 

If I was new to an army and didn't know anything, if I opened the Codex and saw two Troops options, I would take one of each. Lets say I took 5 Termies with daemon hammer, halberds, psycannon, psybolts.. that's 245. Lets go out on a limb and say 5 Strikes (minimum box sets) with daemon hammer, psycannon, psybolts..140.

 

This leaves 115 points. One could take a Brotherhood Champion or an Inquisitor and have a legal army at 500 points. But you can learn your first, most important observation: Grey Knights are an elite army and everything is EXPENSIVE! You will always be outnumbered on the table. This is not a horde army.

 

So let's up it to 750 (not everyone is as lucky as the Guard with cheap Troops after all). Leave the Termies the same, take a full Strike Squad at 250 points with 10 men, 2 psycannons, hammer, psybolts. That leaves you 255 points for a rhino and an HQ. So play around... discover how versatile psycannons are. Do you feel you need more long range firepower? That tells you what to buy next. Is your area saturated with lots of tanks or vehicles that your psycannons are having issues with? Maybe some melta or plasma might help. Are you having fun deep striking but wish it was more accurate? Maybe something that can add Servo-skulls would be useful for you. Begin to make a list of things that "If I had only had..." from your games and use that to guide your future purchases or acquisitions.

 

I do find it helpful to trim a list down to it's necessities and play it. It gives you a real appreciation for what your basic core troops can do, as well as glaring weaknesses and characteristics of the force. If the player is finding himself shot to death before closing, maybe the realization that he should purchase some mobility with his remaining 1,250 points is a good one. Theory is good, but it must be tempered with actuality and concrete observations. Theory can't teach you your own playstyle, but actually playing and then putting in your homework of self analysis and looking over "what just happened" can. You have to make choices: Do I maximize my armies strengths and accept my glaring weaknesses, or do I attempt to shore up my weaknesses and build a more well rounded force? Theory can't teach you that, but actually playing can.

 

So yes, I practice Mathhammer. I'm an Economist by training and wargaming is definitely an exercise in decisions made in conditions of scarcity. But paper only goes so far, and as Sun Tsu writes we need to know ourselves as well as knowing our opponent. That is what playing smaller points values teaches you, and no amount of making paper lists can.

[Abaddonshand]

It is my experience that an 'all-comers' list boils down not to what is in the list, but how the general uses the list. For example, as a general, you must be confident that your list can adapt to any particular style of play and overcome the challenges it will face. No list can guarantee that - only someone who knows how to handle their list can. That is the test of an 'all-comers' list: the general can use it to overcome any foe.

 

To me, that means that the all-comers list isn't the kind of list that spams units and focuses on redundancy, instead I think of it as a tool-box list that has a lot of different units with different abilities.

I think of it like this:

The spam list will confront a problem with a hammer - if the hammer doesn't work, then the spam list will use another hammer, and another, and another... until either there are no hammers left, or the problem is overcome.

The tool-box list will confront a problem with a hammer - if the hammer doesn't work, then the tool-box list will try a wrench, or any other tool that fits the bill, until the problem is overcome.

A spam list hopes that it is generically powerful enough to overcome the enemy.

A tool-box list hopes that one or more of the tools it brought will be useable to overcome the enemy in any number of ways.

 

In game terms, a spam list might be something like this: a space marine army composing mostly of tacticals packing lots of plasma and melta. Whereas a tool-box could be a GK list with no identical units whatsoever. I played a game like this just a couple weeks back, and while the space marines tried to hammer me to dust with melta and plasma (which would likely have overcome any type of hammer-list I could bring) I promptly disassembled his tacticals between a squad of deepstriking terminators (with an attached librarian) and a squad of outflanking paladins (thanks to TGS). People could argue that I should have been shot to bits, but due to generalship I was not, and thanks to the diversity in a list, I could count on more ways to overcome my opponent than just one.

 

In short, I think it is to your advantage to take a diverse list as an 'all-comers' force instead of a spam list. Also, in my experience, people who use internet-based lists often don't know how to use them since they don't have any inherent affinity towards how the list is played.

 

My thoughts on the matter.

 

Can this be stickied at the top of the army lists section please?

[Aidoneus]

While I absolutely agree with Lady Canoness in so much as generalship is a huge factor, I don't necessarily agree that redundancy is a problem. Rather, single-mindedness is the problem. The all-comers list needs to have tools to deal with all sorts of different threats. Maybe that looks like a "toolbox" list, with all sorts of different units filling distinct roles. On the other hand, it could just as easily be a Water Warrior-esque list of versatile, all-purpose units, each one capable of filling multiple roles on its own. This is the style I like to use, because I find it requires more thought to be put in on the tabletop, rather than on paper beforehand.

 

For instance, at 2000pts my typical GK list looks something like this:

 

GM: Psycannon, Servo-Skull

 

5 Terminators: Psycannon, Sword, Hammer, 3x Halberd

 

10 Strikes: 2 Psycannons, Psybolts, TH

10 Strikes: 2 Psycannons, Psybolts, TH

 

10 Interceptors: 2 Psycannons, Psybolts, TH

10 Interceptors: 2 Psycannons, Psybolts, TH

 

Dreadnought: 2 Autocannons, Psybolts

Dreadnought: 2 Autocannons, Psybolts

 

Dreadknight: Incinerator

 

 

At first glance, it looks pretty spammy. And yes, in the sense that I filled up on redundant units, it is. But it doesn't play like a typical spam list because most spam lists are single-minded. The player finds one unit that does something better than anyone else per pt, maxes out on that unit, and uses that one strength to overpower their opponent. On the other hand, the mark of a versatile Water Warrior list is that it does many things well, and can easily play completely differently from one game to the next. The Water general sees what his opponent's army does, then adjusts 100% of his strategy to avoid his opponent's strengths, and hammer his opponent's weaknesses.

 

For instance, nothing in my army except those 2 dreadnoughts has a defined role. I can easily go on the offensive and overwhelm him with T4 bodies with force weapons, but I can just as easily kite around out of assault range and hammer him with psycannons and S5 storm bolters. A little over half the time I hold everything in reserve and make heavy use of deep-striking, but sometimes it's good to have a solid block of bodies putting out a solid wall of bullets from turn 1. It all depends on the opponent, the terrain, and the mission.

 

Sorry, I don't mean to harp on about my list. The point I'm trying to make is that, so long as you have a tool for every situation, it really doesn't matter whether you spam or diversify. We are blessed in that we have easily the most versatile Troops in the game, which lets us use redundant units to fill all the roles we need. Indeed, an argument can be made (and was made repeatedly back when Water tactics were in vogue) that redundant versatile units are better than many unique dedicated units. For instance, if the situation demands that you charge forward headlong (playing against Tau or gunline IG), any dedicated shooting units you have will be useless. Similarly, if you're faced with 100+ bodies and no armour, any dedicated anti-tank units will be useless. On the other hand, if all of your units can fill any role, they will all be useful in every game you play. In an all-comers list, this is hugely beneficial, because you will be fighting at maximum efficiency every game, and so won't find yourself in a "bad matchup" situation nearly as often.

 

Anyway, that's my plug for redundancy and Water tactics. [/sermon]

 

More generally, if you're trying to build an all-comers list, the only thing you really have to worry about is filling every role. It doesn't so much matter whether you go toolbox or Water, so pick whichever one appeals more to you. Just don't spam a unit that's only good at one thing, because inevitably you're going to face an army that can avoid that one thing (or beat you at it), and then you're screwed. Adaptability, rather than specific unit choices, is the hallmark of a good all-comers list.

[neonfunk]

Firstly, to Gentlemanloser:

Neonfunk, I think your confusion is that I actually do, or would, run a list like the above.

 

I don't.But.

 

You asked;

 

QUOTE

if you had to build an all comers list, what would you like to include in it?

 

Please also explain why such units would be warranted in the list.

 

And I answered.

 

If you want 'all comers' then the GK can't really do better than to spam Psycannons. As many as you can get your hands on.

 

I know that's what I asked for. I was simply asking for confirmation on a particular impression I held, and your list re-inforced it, and therefore, I thank you for your input, you (and others) have been very helpful.

 

Secondly,

 

Can this be stickied at the top of the army lists section please?

 

Ditto - in reference to Lady Cannoness' post.

 

And

 

Theory can't teach you your own playstyle, but actually playing and then putting in your homework of self analysis and looking over "what just happened" can. You have to make choices: Do I maximize my armies strengths and accept my glaring weaknesses, or do I attempt to shore up my weaknesses and build a more well rounded force? Theory can't teach you that, but actually playing can.

 

I absolutely catch your drift, and I wholeheartedly agree. However, I am in a position where I do not have the luxury to go out and purchase expensive $$ models such as the big K or LR's to playtest them, and then find out that they totally suck or my playstyle doesn't complement them, etc... I'm not having a go at you here, I'm merely articulating my position - that I want to get as much "valid theory" that I can get before i can make an informed choice/purchase - which is the whole reason why I started this thread. If this restriction was not in play, then of course, I agree with your general approach that basically spells "practice makes perfect".

 

Thank you all for your input.

 

Regards,

Neonfunk

[neonfunk]

sorry, double post

[the jeske]

If the player is finding himself shot to death before closing, maybe the realization that he should purchase some mobility with his remaining 1,250 points is a good one

wait . so he buys models plays and then finds out he is being shot to death . he will leave [or change army] because of finding out that his army doesnt work . because without the proper unit composition he will get owned by 750pts tailored armies . But the worse that can happen is that it doesnt happen . And at 1500pts he actualy thinks he has a viable list , that his "game style" fits him and then he goes to a shop finds opponents other then his brother/friend and suddenly he is losing each and every time . I seen this happen a lot of times . I understand testing and I understand proxing but learning to play at 750pts , specialy if real models are suppose to be involved in to it seems to be of little sense to me . the builds have nothing to do with actual games . they have different meta , weapon ratio works different , there is stuff that never fits in 500-750 but is a base for 1500 or more[how to play/test draigo wing at 500 ?] . If anything for new players then a good spamy list , it is easy to play most of the time with one , maybe two [but not all dex are that lucky] game styles for a build. And unlike the 500pts it teaches stuff for actual games. got a SS razor/mecha build . get owned by a green tide[or other assault army] ? lesson learned a counter unit or/and anti horde is needed .

much better then building an army of 750 then adding another 750pts and finding out that the gear for units , HQ transports etc are totaly different [with offten different game play].

 

As I said before from playing 500/750 pts a new player may get the wrong idea about GK being an assault army .

 

Theory can't teach you that, but actually playing can.

I dont know when you have armies like the old leaf blower when you know that on avarge rolls [and 2500pts is enough models shoting to start getting avarge rolls , unlike 500-750 where everything is more or less random] you kill 40+meq in cover or disable 4-5 tanks/transports there isnt much to learn.

 

I think two [or was it 3] months ago we had a big tournament where one of the top 16 was a 10 year old . He had a 10 paladin/draigo/ 10 paladin army . you cant get more spamy. his dad , my friend wrote him the tactic . always go second deep strike everything always roll comunion shot tanks before troops. I think he got 14 or 13 in the end , the list played itself[he was also lucky to not draw any DE . but still he played so realy good SW and nids players].

[jeffersonian000]

This is very much like the Ghostwing I've been running for a while, now. Mordrak+4 Ghosts, Librarian w/skulls/powers/homer, 2x 10-man GKT (2 Psycans, 2 hammers, unique weapon mix), 1x 10-man Interceptors (2 Psycans, 2 hammers). Its a flexible list that allows me to use different tactics versus different armies. In general, I want to deploy Mordrak, Ghosts, and Libby as a single unit right where I want them (DS with no scatter, ftw!), then bring in the rest of my units as and where I need them, either via DS, Outflank, or just starting them on the board in cover. Having 10-man squads let's me combat squad them into 5-wound/1 Psycan/1 hammer units if that's the better tactic, or keep them together as 10-wound/2 Psycan/2 hammer units if that's the better tactic. Flexibility versus spam.

 

SJ

[neonfunk]

Dear Jeffersonian,

 

I've been toying with a Ghostwing Build. But I baulk at the thuoght of a 600 point unit (Mordrak + Libby + 5 Ghost Knights) to be the cornerstone of my list.

 

They would obviously be needed to come in behind some solid cover, and you'd need to wait a turn or two to call in the cavalry. Once the calvary has been called, do you find it feasible to then footslog Mordrak's unit to enemy lines to setup a charge?

 

It does come across as "flexible", as that 1st turn accurate DS allows you to respond accordingly after seeing your enemy units and where they're deployed. It's just that 600 point non-scoring unit that holds me back!

[riddles]

I'd like to add something as someone who has come from Deathwing and PA Dark Angels to Grey Knights recently.

 

The rhino and the razorback are taken on most units that can take them for a very good reason. In this edition of the game, mech is king and the mobility and protection afforded by light transports cannot be ignored.

 

this goes even more so for other PA marine armies (wolves, non jump infantry BA, SM, DA) as their troops tend to have short ranges with their guns. They will rarely get out of their transports - prefering to shoot out of the top of a rhino with 2 melta shots.

 

What i really like about grey knights (specifically strike squads and purifiers) is the ability to operate outside of their transports at more than 12 inch range. It means your APCs are just that - transports to get your guys where they need to go. They hop out, the transport does something else. It's a different playstyle.

 

Take gentleman losers list.

 

Lose the libby, vindicare, both purifier units and 1 strike squad.

net loss: 15 marines, 5 psycannons, 1 assassin, psychic hood and assorted power tricks.

 

Net Gain: 8 razorbacks with assault cannons and psybolt ammo.

 

so 8 vehicles for your guys to ride in (therefore being protected while they move into their preferred 24 inch range.

3 more psycannons than the previous list. 8 that are twin linked and always firing 4 shots even on the move.

line of sight blockers

mobile terrain.

 

foot lists struggle to compete with that. the codexes that can do decent foot lists are: DA (deathwing), orks (the green tide - very rare due to the length of time it take to move 180 models), IG (same issues as orks) and Grey Knights. Grey knights really though, do it with paladins and terminators (and even then vehicle support is preferred).

 

Nids don't count as foot because of the big gribblies. they are their tanks.

 

Having said all of that, the power level of the GK is very high. There are very few (none?) bad choices in the book as long as you don't splurge on upgrades and any list you put out will give other books a decent game. so play what you fancy and ignore netlists because, as has been said, you'll know the people who've just pulled out a netlist and aren't experienced with it. they tend to be twits you only play once anyway.

[Gentlemanloser]

foot lists struggle to compete with that. the codexes that can do decent foot lists are: DA (deathwing), orks (the green tide - very rare due to the length of time it take to move 180 models), IG (same issues as orks) and Grey Knights. Grey knights really though, do it with paladins and terminators (and even then vehicle support is preferred).

 

Or Steleks 65 man Crowe footslogging list? :lol:

[angel of justice]

Im thinking the strength of the grey knights is there normal strike units. 20 points, 4 more points than a tactical marine. For your 20 points you get a storm bolter and force weapon. (22 points and you have a strength 5 storm bolter) all other marines dexes you have to pay 15 points for a power weapon and 3-5 points for a storm bolter.

 

Also Psycannons are awesome.