Unlearning Bad Habits

[Redemption2994]

Ever since I joined the ranks of Warhammer 40k Players, I've always had a bad habit of making my units worth too many points. I normally play 1500 points or even 2000 points. I usually have HQ Units around 200-250 in value, and squads of units worth anywhere from 250-300. I noticed some mock up armies in the Aspiring Champion's Handbook, and the idea that I could have a large number of Power Armored Units equipped moderately is somewhat foreign to me. Only recently have I begun putting Berzerkers into squads of 8 instead of 10 to save points. Tomorrow I plan on playing a couple of 1000 or 1500 point games tomorrow and I'd like some advice. I expect to be facing Space Wolves or regular Space Marines. (Guardsman is the only other option, but its unlikely...)

 

Anyone have any good advice on building armies more body dependent? Or even some ways to find a better balance? I normally play Khornate or Tzeentch, but TSons and Berzerkers are some of the most expensive troops in the Codex. I need to use more Basic "Bread and Butter" Chaos Space Marines.

 

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

PS. I've got a Defiler, two rhinos, 36 Berzerkers, about 25 Assorted CSM, A variety of Infantry Lords, and about 7 Terminators among many other things. (Also have Bloodletters and Various Chaos Daemons) I can proxy the Wargear for the moment.

 

Thanks again!

[Brother Ambroz]

If you like spending lots of points, you should definitely get a couple DPs. I usually try to field 2x squads of 5 plague marines (which can be used as just normal marines, don't need the actual finecast boys) and 2x units of 8 zerks. It's nicely balanced and the PMs take most of the fire, allowing the zerks to charge whatever target they feel is most juicy. You probably already have enough for those four so I'd recommend picking up some oblits and a couple DPs. You can spend lots of points on those bad boys and not feel guilty.

[Redemption2994]

Ahh, I do actually have a DP. I normally gear him up with Mark of Tzeentch, Warptime and Bolt of Change. If I can afford the 20 points, I give him wings. Or what I justify it as, Daemonic Agility (Jumping, running, and othersuch. Never liked bulky wings.) I never attempted using Plague Marines before. Do they soak up that much damage? My TSons normally act as my damage eaters. (My opponent loves armor piercing stuff)

[Rain]

Yeah this is a really common thing among newer players, the "ooh shiny" syndrome. This actually works for some armies like Space Wolves, Grey Knights, and some Ork builds but not for Chaos because Chaos is just not a very elite army in the face of 5th edition. That said, 200-300 points is about standard for a Chaos unit if you include the cost of the rhino so that's not bad, though going over 200 on an HQ is never a good sign.

 

Anyway, try 10 CSM with fistichamp and 2 meltas in a rhino. Pretty cheap and pretty effective, they play kind of like diet Berzerkers in that they are a good aggressive offensive unit, especially with those meltagun shots along with your pistols. Unlike berzerkers however, they actually have some anti-tank utility and can camp an objective in a pinch, especially if it's in a ruined building.

 

Also, bolt of change? Why? That's exactly the kind of thing that adds bloat to a list, as does MoT. Just leave him unmarked and give him warptime if you want him to be killy. Also Thousand Sons are not very good at soaking damage, at least not against a competent opponent. The reason Plague Marines are good is that if you stick them in cover they become very difficult to remove with shooting, no matter what your opponent throws at them (4+ cover against high str low ap, and T5 + FNP against small arms) whereas Thousand Sons die just as easily to bolters as much cheaper standard CSM.

 

Which is kind of the thing, a camping unit should never be out of cover, that just defeats its entire purpose, especially in a list that isn't entirely composed of camping units. But really the best thing I can recommend for you is to convert some obliterators. I am not exaggerating when I say that perhaps half of my wins with the Gavdex were directly due to proper use of obliterators, heck I've won kill point games in which all I had left on the table was a couple of oblits.

 

Quick edit: Before anyone complains, yes I know that berzerkers can charge a tank hitting it at S5 on the rear and their champ usually has a fist, however this use of berzerkers strands them to be shot at and assaulted. Melta CSM can fire out of their rhino, or blow up a rhino with meltas and then charge the passengers locking themselves in combat for safety.

[nurglez]

10 chaos marines, 2 melta, icon of chaos glory and a fist champ= 220

7 plague marines, 2 melta, fist champ=221

 

I love plague marines, and T5, FNP, defensive grenades is so worth losing an I for, things that will wipe them in close combat will do the same to chaos marine squads. These 2 squads are almost equal in cost, but I'd rate the defensiveness of the plague marines as higher :D

 

I too would suggest trying a bare bone Daemon prince, wings and warp time is 155 points if I remember correctly, and kicks ass in combat.

 

while Oblitorators are rather nice, I dislike them. A decent alternative (sorta) is a squad of 3 terminators, with combi meltas, cheap and cheerful and for 105 points is not too shabby (I did have issues dropping them in as a suicide unit at first as they are the elites, but its the best use for them :( ).

 

One weird thing I have done is to only have 2 fist champions over 4 squads, which saves 80 points. I always used to give squads a champion, but they dont always need them (of course, sometimes you end up in combat with a dread, and then your daemon prince comes along and rips it in half!).

[Redemption2994]

Thanks for the Advice. I'm tough to let go of my MoT because I enjoy the 4+ Invulns alot. But here's what I've come up with, with the advice I've received so far. (I do need to convert some Oblits... 22 bucks for one is murder.)

 

Chaos Sorc with Doombolt, a cheap and easy 110 points.

DP with Wings, MoT, Warptime and Gift of Chaos, a bit more, at 205

 

Troops

2 squads of Plague Marines, each with 2 Plasma Guns, puts it to 145 each

2 squads of 5 Zerkers to sit behind them

 

Two Outflanking Chosen units of 6. Gave them Rhinos with Havocs.

One group has 4 Plasma Guns and a Lascannon for 253 (I know there'll be a transport I can pound moving up the middle.)

Other group has 5 Flamers and Aspiring with a Power Weapon for 208 (There are two Ruins we use that could be on either end or both. He likes to get his scouts and Heavy Weapons in there. Which is why Im pushing away from TSons...)

 

I threw in a CCW Defiler to either become a convenient wreck for someone, or fire the battle cannon

 

Whole list tops off at just under 1500. My only worry is that the very small squads could be dangerous. I'm hoping if I leave them in pairs, then one can tie the other group up for a while to lead a counter assault on. The Sorceror will probably run with the Plague Marines.

 

Any thoughts?

 

 

Edit: Thinking again... I may ditch MoT and GoC... That'll save space... then I can fit him in a squad for a turn or better yet find him some applicable cover...

[Rain]

No, this list is way too slow. You need rhinos. Also 5 berzerkers is too few, especially without a champ. Why would you give an outflanking unit a heavy weapon? Ever? The rhino moving makes them count as moving. Also 2 units of Chosen is overkill at 1500 points, you need to bulk out your scoring units, drop one of the Chosen squads and bulk out your zerk squads to 8 men with fistichamps and rhinos. Also power weapons on your champs are not very effective, fists are much better in almost all cases because the squad offers him ablative wounds and it's only 10 more points for double strength.

 

Also I'm not too crazy on Sorcs, a prince with just wings would be only marginally more expensive but far more effective, and if you must take a sorc I would say that warptime is better if he is then attached to a berzerker squad, even if that does make my medula flufflongata quiver with horror. Otherwise it's going in the right direction.

[Redemption2994]

I'll cut the one Chosen squad. Stick the Zerks in my other Rhino? I was a little skeptical about giving Zerks a 5 Squad... And I forgot to mention I added Aspiring with Power Weapons. I tried using Powerfists before with some oddly mixed Results... I'll give it a shot. (The joys of typing lists in MS Word)

 

Edit: Got 156 spare points now. I kinda like the thought of a Sorceror in the Zerk Squad. (Yes yes, Sorc + Zerk = Bad Fluff. However I'm very good at bending descriptions to sort my Chaosy/Daemonic needs... :D )

 

Filled with 4 Termies and Combi Meltas. Gave Personal Icons to Aspirings and Prince. Thanks for the help guys! I'll post a Battle Report tomorrow.

[Brother Ambroz]

Alright. (Competitive mode engaged.) Here's what you should do to make a competitive force.

 

HQ

 

Chaos Sorc with Doombolt, a cheap and easy 110 points.

DP with Wings, MoT, Warptime and Gift of Chaos, a bit more, at 205

 

1. Sorceror- While fun and fluffy he dies so quickly and does so little for his points cost (you may think he's cheap but after getting charged, killing 2-3 and then dying to a powerfist doesn't make up his points cost). For an extra 40-50 points you get a monstrous creature, eternal warrior and far more versatile unit then the sorceror. Sure he can't hide in a squad and cover is much harder to get but in the end the results are much better.

 

2. DP- Yes MoT is expensive but it can prove useful at times (4+ invuln as you mentioned is very helpful). Now if you're going to use MoT then he needs to have the proper spells. Warptime is great and is always good to have. Gift of Chaos on the otherhand, while fun and fluffy at times, is not very competitive/good. I'd recommend dropping that for Wind of Chaos. That template weapon is so useful and fun to use, ahh just remembering the old days of Tsons and WoC....

 

Troops

2 squads of Plague Marines, each with 2 Plasma Guns, puts it to 145 each

2 squads of 5 Zerkers to sit behind them

 

1. PMs- They look pretty decent, I always give mine a fisting champ though to intimidate potential charges. Also you need to mechanize all your footsloggers. Barebones rhinos work best, although lots of people use havocs on them as well. I say barebones because anything extra is just a waste of points, nowadays if a rhino gets shot they'll take more damage than crew shaken or stunned thus making possession or extra armor worthless.

 

2. Zerks- Always give these guys a rhino and a champ. Some people prefer a powerweapon on the champion with his furious charge it makes up for the lack of a fist sometimes. I always give them fists though. Also I recommend upgrading this unit to eight guys.

 

Elites

 

Two Outflanking Chosen units of 6. Gave them Rhinos with Havocs.

One group has 4 Plasma Guns and a Lascannon for 253 (I know there'll be a transport I can pound moving up the middle.)

Other group has 5 Flamers and Aspiring with a Power Weapon for 208 (There are two Ruins we use that could be on either end or both. He likes to get his scouts and Heavy Weapons in there. Which is why Im pushing away from TSons...)

 

1. Chosen squad one- Never mix weapons. 4 Plasmas and a Lascannon is nearly useless as you can't move and fire a lascannon. I'd say just make it 5 plasmas. Also I'd drop the champion and make each squad 5 man.

 

2. Chosen squad two- Flamers is fine if you want to take them although I never find them very useful. Definitely drop the champion, power weapons are nearly useless without something to boost your strength.

 

Heavy Support

 

I threw in a CCW Defiler to either become a convenient wreck for someone, or fire the battle cannon

 

1. Defiler- This is good although I recommend filling up your HS slots more (defilers, autocannon havocs or oblits being the best) as they're the best slots we currently have apart from DPs.

 

Overall you have a serious lack of anti-tank which isn't good.

[Redemption2994]

Ahh crap, I got the two mixed up. Its Wind of Chaos I wanted. Until recently, I have hardly touched Psychic Powers. Unfortunately, I'm limited to one or two rhinos. Circumstances awkwardly lead to my friend and I sharing them. I got suckered into trading them way back near the start for a few nice kits. We both play pretty casually, so normally If I need em he's good with letting me use them. In the upcoming month I plan on grabbing two Landraiders for troop trucking.

 

And I have a question. You mentioned DPs can't hide in squads. Is that true? If so I must of read something wrong in the Rules. I've been sticking my Prince in squads since the start.

[Brother Ambroz]

Yes MCs can't hide in squads. If you want to be really competitive you need to mechanize all of your footsloggers, no way around that. Also landraiders while it is a cool kit aren't very good at all for how expensive they are. I'd recommend just buying rhinos or trading the landraiders.

[Redemption2994]

Thanks for the info everyone. I threw the Termies in with CombiMeltas and A Chainfist. They're my designated TankBuster, and the Prince does an excellent job himself. I'm gonna call it a night. I'll post the Battle Rep tomorrow and let you guys know how I did! Thank you for all the advice.

[minigun762]

10 chaos marines, 2 melta, icon of chaos glory and a fist champ= 220

7 plague marines, 2 melta, fist champ=221

 

I love plague marines, and T5, FNP, defensive grenades is so worth losing an I for, things that will wipe them in close combat will do the same to chaos marine squads. These 2 squads are almost equal in cost, but I'd rate the defensiveness of the plague marines as higher :P

 

That is a very good comparison of two units that fulfil the same role on the battlefield but with different pro/cons.

 

I prefer the CSMs here because of the extra attacks but few things are harder than trying to shift an entrenched squad of plague marines off of an objective. I find that plague mariens really shine as MSU because they still get 2 specials vs 1 for CSMs and that extra durability goes a long way to mitigating the main drawback of MSUs.

[Roma]

Try this list, Its very noob, but it beat my ultra competitive BT gunline list into pulp 4 times in a row so far. I really dont know how that kid does it...

 

HQ: Abbadon the despoiler

Khârn the betrayer

 

TROOPS:2X 10 khorne berzerkers, skull champion, power weapon (Both in land raider, deamonic possesion)

 

Big, expenseive troops and HQ's, and seems to work.

[Excessus]

Did his HQ walk?

[the jeske]

HQ: Abbadon the despoiler

Khârn the betrayer

 

TROOPS:2X 10 khorne berzerkers, skull champion, power weapon (Both in land raider, deamonic possesion)

 

Big, expenseive troops and HQ's, and seems to work.

Did his HQ walk?

yes .

[Redemption2994]

Alright. So today I got in one 1500 point game against the Space Wolves with the list from before. First turn the Defiler got taken out. He brought 2 scouts with him. His Longfangs lasted the entire game. Despite rolling perfect rolls nearly every time, and him rolling a majority of 1s and 2s. I still managed to lose.

 

Turn 1 the Defiler went down. Moved guys up to the ruins. Venerable Dreadnaught dropped in behind my lines.

 

Turn 2 fire was traded. The Dreadnaught was stunned by plague marines who made it into cover. Berzerkers advanced to cover and were pounded on all angles by Longfangs, Snipers, Grey Hunters, leaving me with 1 Aspiring, and my Sorceror.

 

Turn 3, Suicide charge with Sorceror and Aspiring. The powerfist did nothing but the Sorceror killed 5 of them and sent them reeling. He was then killed by a single melta next turn.

 

The group of berzerkers moved up to support him and the Rhino Came in on the wrong side. It parked out of sight for a while.

 

Turn 4, Sky Claws came in and menaced the plague marines. The Rhino crashed through the ruins, out hopped the flamers who torched the group of 10, 30 hits 17 wounds, 2 casualties... (Note to self... Bring Plasma...)

 

Plague Marines killed a few more. Berzerkers were utterly wiped out.

 

Turn 5, after 5 turns of combat, the Prince finally wrecked the Venerable Dreadnaught, all weapons, immobilized and after many rerolls, finally destroyed it... As soon as he killed it, he was peppered with plasma and Meltas and bolters... Down he went and after 2 rounds of assault the sky claws died...

 

Turn 6 and 7 was passing shots and finally the last plague marine died...

 

Took about 3 or 4 hours playing a last man standing type of game.

 

I like the way the Plague Marines played, but I feel like larger groups would be better... and I need to play smarter with my Berzerkers... The Sorceror did Excellent in assault but it left him sorely open afterwards.

 

My biggest lesson. Khârn > Defiler... My defiler was an god awful waste of points (like every game I use him...). Khârn would have easily bought back his 165 and more. Next time I'll probably cut the Sorceror and the Defiler, beef up the Plague Marine Squads, and bring Khârn along for the ride... While ablative wounds are very nice, I think I'll stick with Power Weapons instead... Hitting at I5and S5 is more than enough for me.

 

Anyways, thanks for the lessons fellas. I think overall I need to just be smarter in my movements.

[Rain]

Yeah, you need rhinos dude. The only unit that can live without one is a 5x plagues 2x plasma home objective camper, which I wouldn't recommend anyway because it's really only very useful in 1/3 of games.

 

Oh and @ nurglez termicide and oblits have potentially very different uses. If all you use oblits for is DS and melta then yes, they are a waste of points, termis do the same thing for less, but oblits offer the best anti-heavy infantry shooting in the Chaos codex. You can deploy them in cover and reach 36" with S7 AP2 blast templates, and if anything gets close you can move and rapidfire twin linked plasmaguns. This is in my opinion the real purpose of obliterators against MEQ armies, and one that no other unit can fulfill as well.

[Azekai]

Sounds like you were just plain outgunned. Oblits are an easy way to provide anti-infantry and anti-tank, while termicide can be used to clean up the long fangs. Defilers are not incredibly tough, but in my experience two works better than one. More rhinos too, if you can. More armor will stretch his anti-tank firepower and allow you to reach him, either with DPs or fleeting defilers (or preferably both).

 

As others have said, best to lose the sorcerer.

[Mr. Sandbot]

Alright. So today I got in one 1500 point game against the Space Wolves with the list from before. First turn the Defiler got taken out. He brought 2 scouts with him. His Longfangs lasted the entire game. Despite rolling perfect rolls nearly every time, and him rolling a majority of 1s and 2s. I still managed to lose.

 

Turn 1 the Defiler went down. Moved guys up to the ruins. Venerable Dreadnaught dropped in behind my lines.

 

Turn 2 fire was traded. The Dreadnaught was stunned by plague marines who made it into cover. Berzerkers advanced to cover and were pounded on all angles by Longfangs, Snipers, Grey Hunters, leaving me with 1 Aspiring, and my Sorceror.

 

Turn 3, Suicide charge with Sorceror and Aspiring. The powerfist did nothing but the Sorceror killed 5 of them and sent them reeling. He was then killed by a single melta next turn.

 

The group of berzerkers moved up to support him and the Rhino Came in on the wrong side. It parked out of sight for a while.

 

Turn 4, Sky Claws came in and menaced the plague marines. The Rhino crashed through the ruins, out hopped the flamers who torched the group of 10, 30 hits 17 wounds, 2 casualties... (Note to self... Bring Plasma...)

 

Plague Marines killed a few more. Berzerkers were utterly wiped out.

 

Turn 5, after 5 turns of combat, the Prince finally wrecked the Venerable Dreadnaught, all weapons, immobilized and after many rerolls, finally destroyed it... As soon as he killed it, he was peppered with plasma and Meltas and bolters... Down he went and after 2 rounds of assault the sky claws died...

 

Turn 6 and 7 was passing shots and finally the last plague marine died...

 

Took about 3 or 4 hours playing a last man standing type of game.

 

I like the way the Plague Marines played, but I feel like larger groups would be better... and I need to play smarter with my Berzerkers... The Sorceror did Excellent in assault but it left him sorely open afterwards.

 

My biggest lesson. Khârn > Defiler... My defiler was an god awful waste of points (like every game I use him...). Khârn would have easily bought back his 165 and more. Next time I'll probably cut the Sorceror and the Defiler, beef up the Plague Marine Squads, and bring Khârn along for the ride... While ablative wounds are very nice, I think I'll stick with Power Weapons instead... Hitting at I5and S5 is more than enough for me.

 

Anyways, thanks for the lessons fellas. I think overall I need to just be smarter in my movements.

 

I think other important lessons to take from this:

-Rhinos are important, they keep your troops alive

-berzerkers without transport have a bad tendency to eat lots of bullets and die

-defilers are not reliable

-You need more guns

-Chosen aren't very reliable when it comes to causing damage

[minigun762]

To further discuss the defiler, they have a very strong tendancy to go boom when you only deploy one. Its a big scary target that only has medium armor and units like ML longfangs were made to pop it open on turns 1-2. One of the main keys to using them successful is using more than one, in order to split the opponent's incoming firepower. Pairing them up with rhinos makes your opponent struggle as to where to direct his long range anti tank shots, against your scoring units or the big battle cannon death crab.