Landraider Question /w Codex SM

[Puhnupetteri]

Hey

 

I just bought a very first landraider. And as my first i bought the one with 2 lascannons.. If i recall it correctly ppl call it LR Phobos?

 

:.. Well after i bought it i went to internet and googled what ppl liked about "phobos"... well it wasnt admiring ^_^

 

It seems most ppl are prefering LR crusader... even redeemer seems hated.

 

I usually run a gunline and i was thinking that phobos would fit my theme. Why in the guillimans name should i ride to my enemy when my whole army is just sitting in base shooting anyway? Only thing i see i miss is a counter-attack ability with my armylist/playstyle

 

Example list i would run 1500-1850

Librarian

2-3TacticalSquad

and sometimes a dread with TLAC

LSS / Scouts DCCW BP

2 LS

2-3 Predator AC/lascannon sponsons

 

As i could imagine i could just sit in base with my tanks (LR and predators) and pepper enemy at range (So i could imagine that 2x Lascannons would add well synergy to other units) . When enemy comes near i would unleash the TH/SS termies inside LR as counter charge. But otherwise just play defencively like i always do with SM.

 

Any toughts?

 

Most likely i will magnetize my LR anyway in time so this is not a -huge- setback ... i just need to search some how-to tutorials and pieces for other weapon varietys... those other LR's dont differ in anything else than weaponary?

[Guest Drunk Guardian]

My take is that conventional wisdom is that a Land Raider is a transport first, shooting platform second... its primary job is to protect its contents and deliver them successfully, then blow up whatever else you can along the way... not to mention Terminators are frequently the contents - and since they happen to lack frag grenades, the frag assault launchers as well as the capacity of the Land Raider Crusader fill this role best...

 

However - nothing says the Land Raiders HAVE to be used this way. The Land Raider Phobos is unique in its ability to sit back and shoot and potentially cripple targets that might contain whatever it is your contents want to eventually engage. Due to the lack of frag assault launchers, Terminators are not a natural companion to the Land Raider Phobos and hence you'll want to use a unit like an Honor Guard or Vanguard veteran squad instead... something that is much more vulnerable to getting shot up should the Land Raider fail to reach its target.

 

Because the Land Raider Phobos is more of a ranged shooter than its machine spirit brothers, it is slightly less threatened by Melta fire than the other two... naturally with the Crusader and Redeemer looking to come to grips immediately with its target, they bring themselves closer to the anti-land raider weapons... the Phobos does not necessarily do this. It may even be to your advantage in certain battles to force your opponents anti-Land Raider guns forward (if your opponent has Broadsides, kiss your Land Raider goodbye, no matter what variant it is).

 

I think the Phobos fits a different play style than the other two and you have to be willing to use a PA / RA combat squad to get the best use out of it. You also need to be a little more patient in getting your guys to the fight depending on the circumstance. I think its worth giving it a few go's and seeing how it works out for you.

[Elric the Silvercoat]

For me I stick a 10 man Tactical Squad in my LR Phobos and objective sit with it. Sometimes I put a Techmarine in it with the Tactical Squad and put Chronos in the Phobos, it makes for a really hard to move and killy objective sitter. Its works for me so I am not sure how you would like it.

 

Also so you know GW sells a Crusader/Redeemer conversion kits for the Land Raider by itself so you can still get all three (at different times) with the same basic hull.

[ShinyRhino]

For me I stick a 10 man Tactical Squad in my LR Phobos and objective sit with it. Sometimes I put a Techmarine in it with the Tactical Squad and put Chronos in the Phobos, it makes for a really hard to move and killy objective sitter. Its works for me so I am not sure how you would like it.

 

 

This is how I envision mine being used (whenever I get around to building it ^_^). Put a cheap scoring unit inside, and either park it on an objective (blast up to two tanks per turn with those TLLCs!) or slowly turndle downrange while blasting up to two targets per turn (assuming you move only 6").

[Iron Father Ferrum]

For me I stick a 10 man Tactical Squad in my LR Phobos and objective sit with it. Sometimes I put a Techmarine in it with the Tactical Squad and put Chronos in the Phobos, it makes for a really hard to move and killy objective sitter. Its works for me so I am not sure how you would like it.

 

 

This is how I envision mine being used (whenever I get around to building it ^_^). Put a cheap scoring unit inside, and either park it on an objective (blast up to two tanks per turn with those TLLCs!) or slowly turndle downrange while blasting up to two targets per turn (assuming you move only 6").

 

I guess that makes me an outcast amongst the LR community, because I don't own a Crusader -- just a Phobos and a Redeemer!

 

I use my Phobos almost exactly as described above -- as a Tactical Squad transport for objective sitting and a long-range shooting platform. POTMS means that it excels in this role, since you can always fire at least one of its guns (and I tack on the pintle MM to give me that one last option for plugging big nasties that get too close). The only thing I don't throw in that was mentioned above is Chronos; he's a touch expensive for a vehicle upgrade, and while ignoring Shaken/Stunned is nice, I envision it being better employed on a Vindicator.

[Excubitor]

I see each LR as having different roles.

 

Redeemer seems (to me) to excel in short ranged, heavy cover fights like cityfights. It also excels at missions where breeching/capturing fortifications is needed (Planetstrike). Close combat units are best in this one, I prefer units like assault squads, Honour guard or Vanguard, though small terminator units do work well.

 

Crusader is in my eyes the premier assault vehicle in 40k. It lays down a torrent of firepower as it trundles in and unleashes its cargo onto whatever poor soul is its target. Terminators especially excel in this one.

 

Phobos is the master of defence. It's long-ranged capacity means it can stay back and unleash it's firepower from anywhere on the table where it's needed, at the same time as being in whichever position it needs to be to counter any enemy assault on your firebase. It can, with a scoring unit inside, also be a brilliant objective holder. ANY unit can go in this variant, depending on it's role in the firebase.

 

Others might have different views, but this is how I view the main 3 LR types and how I choose them to play their role in my lists. Use the right LR for the right job, and you really make it live up to it's reputation.

 

Also another note on transported squads, Sternguard can also be incredibly useful inside any of the variants. Their higher attack value and special issue ammunition I find works well in many scenarios you can come across. Especially if you take them with Kantor, adding an extra attack and scoring to the unit makes it's utility in many battlefield and scenario situations very handy.

 

*edit: Forgot to add, I rarely take terminators with the phobos. The Frag assault launchers of the other two variants are what make terminators excel with them. Also like mentioned above, get the crusader/redeemer sprue - that way you can run any variant you find works with your list.

[ak-73]

First of all, why buy a LR if you don't intend to put melee troops into it? :lol: As a pure firing plattform it is over-costed. And the Phobos is supposed to stay away from the enemy, yes, so its use is as counter-charge or to provide moving cover against Tau or IG.

 

Secondly, don't be discouraged by the reviews of the LR. Yeah, it is a bit over-costed. However people can still win tournaments with it in its list. Multiple times. Google Ben "Spacecurves" Mohlie and his army lists (which often have a LR Phobos). Very successful Vanilla player, captain of ETC Team USA.

 

Alex

[Brother Valerius]

First of all, why buy a LR if you don't intend to put melee troops into it?

 

Because nothing whatsoever causes your opponent to gnash their teeth more than an AV14 scoring bunker. It is delicious.

[Koremu]

First of all, why buy a LR if you don't intend to put melee troops into it?

 

Because nothing whatsoever causes your opponent to gnash their teeth more than an AV14 scoring bunker. It is delicious.

Which is why Blood Angel Assault Squads are the perfect contents for it.

[Brother Valerius]

Yeah, but even if you aren't playing Blood Angels I consider it a worthwhile investment. It's done great for me in the games I've used it in.

[ak-73]

First of all, why buy a LR if you don't intend to put melee troops into it?

 

Because nothing whatsoever causes your opponent to gnash their teeth more than an AV14 scoring bunker. It is delicious.

 

Lance weapons don't care so much. And modern day armies are bristling with melta. You have sunk 250 points into a single vehicle that will need to move forward into melta range or which sits backfield and doesn't do that much for its 250 pts.

 

I'll tell you what makes player's teeth gnash: when they after battle realize that they only killed 300 or so pts of your army and you killed nearly 1000 because what you have done is field loads of cheap but effective units where you don't care if you lose a few them because they are cheap and you got more.

 

Distribution of points is generally quite effective. Concentrating 400+ points in oine vehicle is dangerous for the player doing so. And it makes it harder to spread out one's force.

 

Alex

[Brother Valerius]

With all due respect, my experience disagrees on nearly everything you said. Nobody in my area plays Eldar or Dark Eldar, and we take out tanks like real men rather than with melta spam, so the tactic is quite effective here. So depending on the environment you play in, sure, it doesn't work well. But "YMMV" is (or should be) assumed on everything that gets said in this forum. And let us not forget that there's nothing wrong with small, but effective armies - armies like Draigowing (heck, GK in general), Deathwing, and Loganwing can find success on the table even though each loss hurts you a lot. Cheap units which are of no individual consequence may work best for you, but it is not the only way.

 

Also, a scoring Land Raider is only 400+ points if you're doing it wrong. The whole point is to put a cheap scoring unit inside, not a 150+ point scoring unit. But even if you go the whole 9 yards and put a 170-point 10-man tactical squad in, so what? You have paid a 220-point premium over a standard Rhino transport, but you also get a big increase in return as well: better mobility (technically not mobility itself, but PotMS letting you shoot on the move if need be), far better shooting, far better survivability, and a bigger footprint to score with (should it matter). I call the gains worth the 220-point premium.

 

Afterthought: honestly, your arguments really only apply to "should you use a Land Raider at all?", not "should you use a Land Raider for things that don't involve assault units?". Even if you put assault units in it, the arguments you made apply (lots of points in one unit, lance weapons or melta weapons can neutralize it with relative easy). And it's not like you need to assault out of a Land Raider, so if we accept your reasoning it means that Land Raiders shouldn't be used period... not that Land Raiders shouldn't be used except as a delivery mechanism for assault units.

[greatcrusade08]

:.. Well after i bought it i went to internet and googled what ppl liked about "phobos"... well it wasnt admiring :P

 

It seems most ppl are prefering LR crusader... even redeemer seems hated.

 

my own experiences seem to vary somewhat from the 'norm'

but then if your trusting the interwebz for an accurate repirsentation then i shall say no more :P

 

the crusader is only good for its larger capacity, the bolters despite being able to fire on the move arent good for much except against small nids, gaurdsmen and orks.. and tbh in those situations the 3 or 4 kills wont make a huge difference IMO.

i would either go with the phobos or the redeemer.

 

but IMO the phobos suffers from an identity crisis under the 5th ed vehicle rules.. is it an assault transport or is it a gun platform?

the redeemer is ten points cheaper, whcih in my mind gives you the MM upgrade for free, and lets face it the twin assault cannons easily trump the HBs.

it also has the frag launchers like the crusader which means your termies wont be hitting at I1 through cover.. and although your only sporadically using those flamestorm templates, when you do they make a much bigger dent than those piddly TL boltguns..

i mean seriously youve got the biggest baddest tank in the SM arsenal and you stick boltguns in the sponsons???

[spartan249]

I think the LR Phobos is a decent buy, and you'll always have a use for it in the games you play.

 

The LR Phobos makes for a good mobile bunker to set as your army's centerpiece, as it performs best in that role. From the center, it can take positions of decent cover and contribute long range firepower with the lascannons, it keeps the cargo ready and waiting for incoming threats, and its position at the figurative center of your army allows it to react readily to those threats with the large engagement range. Furthermore, if the situation calls for a speedy delivery of the cargo to an enemy controlled area, it performs in that role just as well as the other LRs, and may even inflict a few damage results to enemy vehicles on the way in. That's something that the other LR variants have much more trouble doing due to the much shorter weapon ranges.

 

The LR Crusader and Redeemer are very straightforward LR variants: they go forward and ram their cargo down the opponent's throat, whether that's a good idea or a bad idea. They are not flexible in application, and thus run into big problems when closing in to the enemy is not the ideal approach to the conflict. Beyond midrange, those two LRs are doing very little to the enemy force.

 

Do not take people's word for gospel and judge a unit just by what others say about it. Armies from marine codices, especially C:SM, all operate very differently depending on who's doing the list design and how they think when they play. Due to this, everyone's experience with the LR Phobos will vary, as it has a lot of facets to explore in every type of army made. Use it for yourself, keeping the nature of it's armaments in mind, and think for yourself what the best solution for a given game situation is. This way, the LR Phobos will prove useful no matter what match-up you find yourself in, as it will have something to do and something to contribute to your battle plan in nearly all situations.

 

In addition, think carefully on what you are going to put in the LR. While Terminators are a decent choice, they don't answer all threats, so you need to think about what your army is good at engaging and what weaknesses you need to cover with your assault unit. If you have a lot of high strength low AP weaponry, you may want to consider Vanguard Veterans for the increased infantry killing ability, as those targets will most likely be what makes it to you mostly intact. If you're packing mid strength mid AP by the bucketful, then TH/SS are probably your best bet, as the stuff that makes it to you will be the elite types with high armor saves or high toughness (or both, in many cases).

[Puhnupetteri]

Whoa! Amount of replys! Thank you everyone for these advices and comments!

 

Excubitor

*edit: Forgot to add, I rarely take terminators with the phobos. The Frag assault launchers of the other two variants are what make terminators excel with them. Also like mentioned above, get the crusader/redeemer sprue - that way you can run any variant you find works with your list.

 

Thanks! This i didint know before! I must buy a kit immediately! Also you got good point that those terminators lack grenades... maybe i should use something else inside

 

ak-73

I'll tell you what makes player's teeth gnash: when they after battle realize that they only killed 300 or so pts of your army and you killed nearly 1000 because what you have done is field loads of cheap but effective units where you don't care if you lose a few them because they are cheap and you got more.

 

I agree that in most scenarios that applies. But in recently i have had bad experience playing with "mass style" using cheap units with masses. ^_^ and most of all i want a variety in my "inventory" I feel its time to try something else... land raider is the perfect way to go if you want a harder tougher and "more elite" solution

 

greatcrusade08

but IMO the phobos suffers from an identity crisis under the 5th ed vehicle rules.. is it an assault transport or is it a gun platform?

 

I can totally understunt what you mean with this. But as i said i think it would fit perfect for -my- playstyle. :) I always play quite defencively. Im thinking that i could use phobos as a gun platform that keeps my counter-attack units safe until i have to defend a objective and launch an assault. Or as someone said i can fit in a scoring unit and definately "hold" the objective.

 

but then if your trusting the interwebz for an accurate repirsentation then i shall say no more

Grumble... I think its most wise to seek ideas outside your playing ring. And try to get other perspectives. I think no one should just adapt everything they read but to take things under consideration is wise.

 

and about trust. I tought the emperor said "Trust no one" :D

 

Do not take people's word for gospel and judge a unit just by what others say about it. Armies from marine codices, especially C:SM, all operate very differently depending on who's doing the list design and how they think when they play. Due to this, everyone's experience with the LR Phobos will vary, as it has a lot of facets to explore in every type of army made. Use it for yourself, keeping the nature of it's armaments in mind, and think for yourself what the best solution for a given game situation is. This way, the LR Phobos will prove useful no matter what match-up you find yourself in, as it will have something to do and something to contribute to your battle plan in nearly all situations.

 

In addition, think carefully on what you are going to put in the LR. While Terminators are a decent choice, they don't answer all threats, so you need to think about what your army is good at engaging and what weaknesses you need to cover with your assault unit. If you have a lot of high strength low AP weaponry, you may want to consider Vanguard Veterans for the increased infantry killing ability, as those targets will most likely be what makes it to you mostly intact. If you're packing mid strength mid AP by the bucketful, then TH/SS are probably your best bet, as the stuff that makes it to you will be the elite types with high armor saves or high toughness (or both, in many cases).

 

spartan249 guy has a good point. You got right to the point!

 

So the question is .. as a counter attack unit. What should i insert inside :) ? I usually play librarian (because all those GK's out there) Maybe i try chapter master and HG. Or with Librarian i could try 5 Scout/marine with bp, ccw. Or maybe a command squad

 

Oh forgot to mention. This http://www.3plusplus.net/2010/10/marine-co...nd-raiders.html was the site i took my first impression of land raider. I didint mention also that i have no personal experience for land raider. None of our 4 marine player in my hoods has a land raider. So had to seek opinions from interwebz...

[spartan249]

For the assault unit, I'd consider keeping it under 300 points. Even 300 points is really pushing it, as it begins to define your battle plan at that point. When designing your assault unit, remember that it must have 1 of 2 methods of dealing damage: Volume of attacks, or Quality of attacks. Nothing I tell you will really help, you have to look at your army list and analyze what your army is good at killing and what it will be weak to, then build a unit to counter that threat. Let's say, for instance, that you're playing MSU. A big super unit of doom will be a little meh because it can only eliminate one or two pieces of your army per turn. In this case, the rest of your army can handle it no problem by focusing fire after they exit combat, which will be nearly guaranteed due to the assaultee's low defense. What such an army needs is some insurance against armies running lots of decent close combat units, as they'll be able to spread out and engage more of your force at the same time. In this case, you need a scythe to sweep through the decent assault units, and Vanguard would provide you enough assault power to do it.

 

We can't analyze a list that we don't have, so it will be up to you to stew over this question and come up with an answer.

[Elric the Silvercoat]

So the question is .. as a counter attack unit. What should i insert inside ^_^ ? I usually play librarian (because all those GK's out there) Maybe i try chapter master and HG. Or with Librarian i could try 5 Scout/marine with bp, ccw. Or maybe a command squad

 

Oh forgot to mention. This http://www.3plusplus.net/2010/10/marine-co...nd-raiders.html was the site i took my first impression of land raider. I didint mention also that i have no personal experience for land raider. None of our 4 marine player in my hoods has a land raider. So had to seek opinions from interwebz...

 

Sometimes Tactical Terminators would be good as a counter assault unit aswell. Some people would be like "OMG don't take Tactical Termies they punch themselves in the face!" and I havn't had great experience with them aswell. They don't work in my playstyle but I don't worry about counter assaulting really. They may work for you and they would be cheaper than a CM with Honour guard or a Captain with Command Squad.

 

You will find when you start playing the Land Raider you will get a few glory games because people will be trying to work out how to deal with a Land Raider. And from my experience of all the games I have played with Land Raider I only have ever lose one twice. One to a lucky Orbital Boardment and a Bloodthister that took four turns to kill it.

[ak-73]

but IMO the phobos suffers from an identity crisis under the 5th ed vehicle rules.. is it an assault transport or is it a gun platform?

 

Gun platform + counter-assault transport in general.

 

Against some armies (looking at you Tau) it becomes assault transport and mobile cover.

 

Alex

[DarkGuard]

I think that frag assault launchers are being overestimated in usefulness at the moment. Remember that most Terminators have power fists or thunder hammers, in effect it's only the lightning claw equipped ones, the Sergeant from a normal squad and ICs without power fists and thunder hammers who benefit. Most armies tend to use Hammernators in Raiders though, so assault launchers are useless as they always strike at I1 anyway. Of course they're free, but what I'm saying is that if you're not taking LC Terminators, don't feel that frag assault launchers should determine what Land Raider you take.

[greatcrusade08]

hammernators.... yawn.

claw termies are far more useful, i never fear hammer termies, i usually kill enough at initiative to mean i draw or win combat

[DarkGuard]

hammernators.... yawn.

claw termies are far more useful, i never fear hammer termies, i usually kill enough at initiative to mean i draw or win combat

 

For my money I prefer Honour Guard over Assault Terminators <_<.

[greatcrusade08]

honour guard trump assault termies if used correctly.. and they dont need the land raider if you dont want to take one

[spartan249]

In a head to head competition, it's obvious that Honor Guard will do better then TH/SS terminators... they're striking first and have more attacks. In fact, Honor Guard are designed to take on targets like Terminators of any type and come out on top. What you, GC08, are not considering, are the different targets that Honor Guard flop against that TH/SS Terminators excel at engaging. What you say is mostly correct... when you're talking about your type of army and your specific context. When we're talking about the applications of TH/SS terminators in a C:SM list, we have to consider what kinds of targets that list needs the ability to tackle the most. Honor Guard are in the same vein of Vanguard: lots of attacks, good against infantry of all types. When you start engaging anything that is not composed of infantry, though, they drop very sharply in effectiveness, as their strength is not adequate to reliably put wounds in enough quantity to matter, and they suddenly become vulnerable to attacks that ignore armor.

 

Again, each unit has their strengths and weaknesses, and the context of the list matters much more then a crude juxtaposition of any two assault units with no context.

[Excubitor]

I guess my opinion on Frag launchers with terminators is a bit skewed, I never run full hammer units, my units are always 3xClaws, 2x Hammer. Usually with Cassius, and sometimes with Khan or Hes'tan depending on points. Local meta for me runs more towards horde lists with playing orcs, tyranids and guard, so hammernators get tarpitted and killed by massed squads rather quickly. I'd skip hammers altogether but the odd power weapon/fist in cc or plasma/melta at short range has proven the usefulness of the odd 3++ save.

 

It's also why I prefer Sternguard. Between their special issue ammunition, their base stats and the bonuses Kantor gives them, they epitomise the adage of shooting assault units, assault the shooting units.